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Posted: 10/29/2004 1:19:30 AM EST
I am begining to wonder. How many countries are we going to have to conquer before we are allowed to live our lives here in peace?

Will we have to fight and conquer just the third world? Just the Islamic countries.

I think we are well started on the road to conquering the Middle East. But what will the response of the rest of the world be?

Will the EU turn against us out of fear and loathing? France already seems well started down that path.

Will China and Russia try to re-arm?

But as colossal as this job sounds, might it be our only path for the long term existance of our nation?
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:24:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 1:25:30 AM EST by sonofbp]

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
I am begining to wonder. How many countries are we going to have to conquer before we are allowed to live our lives here in peace?

Will we have to fight and conquer just the third world? Just the Islamic countries.

I think we are well started on the road to conquering the Middle East. But what will the response of the rest of the world be?

Will the EU turn against us out of fear and loathing? France already seems well started down that path.

Will China and Russia try to re-arm?

But as colossal as this job sounds, might it be our only path for the long term existance of our nation?



The biggest problem with the current process of regime change is that we do not conquer at all.
We spend a fortune to remove one government and replace it with another, and have no guarantee that it will be friendly.
This will not work.
Conquer them make them a state in the union with state rule.
At least that way they will be paying us back for their freedom and still getting the aid of the fed. Military like they will be anyway.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:30:48 AM EST
The only historical model for this we have is Rome, and they always LEFT the locals in charge, just like we are doing in Iraq, under supervision, untill they BEGGED to be in the Roman Empire.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:48:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
I am begining to wonder. How many countries are we going to have to conquer before we are allowed to live our lives here in peace?

Will we have to fight and conquer just the third world? Just the Islamic countries.

I think we are well started on the road to conquering the Middle East. But what will the response of the rest of the world be?

Will the EU turn against us out of fear and loathing? France already seems well started down that path.

Will China and Russia try to re-arm?

But as colossal as this job sounds, might it be our only path for the long term existance of our nation?



Don't be silly, you try that and 90% of the rest of the planet will be ullulating and sucide bombing the local US Junta.

Certainly "well on the road to conquering the middle east" is optimistic. How about we just aim for leaving a democratic nation that has a lot to thank the US for, wouldn't that be a better aim? Generally seems to have worked OK with the Germans/Japanese, at least their citizens generally don't try to blow up US servicemen.

/Phil
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 1:48:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:22:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 2:26:28 AM EST by ArmdLbrl]

Certainly "well on the road to conquering the middle east" is optimistic. How about we just aim for leaving a democratic nation that has a lot to thank the US for, wouldn't that be a better aim? Generally seems to have worked OK with the Germans/Japanese, at least their citizens generally don't try to blow up US servicemen.


And what did we have to do with the Germans and Japanese FIRST before they became this friendly?

Will we have to do that with the WHOLE Middle East over the next few decades (basicly I am thinking the remainder of my life, and I am 30 right now).

We set up a democratic goverment in Iraq- Syria and Iran are not going to stop what they are ALREADY doing which is sending terrorists to undermine that goverment. They will not stop untill the Mullahs in Tehran and the Assad regime in Syria are done away with- they CANNOT stop for letting a democratic, secular goverment stand in the middle of the Middle East will kill them just as surely as a US invasion, though longer. Attacking and hoping the John Kerrys of Amercia get tired and go home is all they can hope for.

To KEEP a democratic goverment in Iraq before we exhaust ourselves trying MEANS invading at least Iran, and probably Syria too, in turn.

The Islamasists are always going to "ullulating and sucide bombing the local US Junta". Both because of their religious teachings and for good old fashoned Marxist economic reasons- they want what the west has and they are to unprepared to get it by any other means except terror and theft. This element will continue to attack the US, and the west in general, as long as they have people who harbor and pay them. They will retreat to Saudi Arabia, and then to Yemen, and then to the Sudan and we will have to follow them. They local goverments will almost always resist our intrusion, and even when they don't their populations probably will in spite of their "leaders" - who don't represent them anyways (think Pakistan).

Just by doing this, what OTHER countries will become frightened and hostile?

Then there is the Korean situation to be delt with, how can it end but with the reunification and creating one whole, democratic, industrialized Korea?

Then there are the little idiots we have been ignoring because they havent attacked the US directly or possess WMD, Chavez in Venezuela and Mugabe in Zimbabwe heading the list.

If we take care of these problems, what other countries are going to become frightened, it looks like Chirac of France is already out recruting with his "American dominance must be challenged" speech...

But maybe this is the backdoor way to World Federalism, perhaps the UN has more to fear from the US than the US has from the UN (as so many here keep on about the "blue helmets"). We impose our will and our system of goverment on one country after another....
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:24:14 AM EST
Solution is really simple. All we have to do is thoroughly kick a few few bullies asses and the rest will leave us alone. Just like it used to be in the 40's & 50's. SOme asshole dictator starts spouting off and the POTUS gives him a call and tells him the Marines are on the way. They will straighten up & fly right. Ass kickings are good for about 20 years on average. Watch what happens with Iran and Syria after the election. GWB has done more for peace in the MI than any other negotiating president in the past.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:40:49 AM EST

Solution is really simple. All we have to do is thoroughly kick a few few bullies asses and the rest will leave us alone. Just like it used to be in the 40's & 50's. SOme asshole dictator starts spouting off and the POTUS gives him a call and tells him the Marines are on the way. They will straighten up & fly right. Ass kickings are good for about 20 years on average. Watch what happens with Iran and Syria after the election. GWB has done more for peace in the MI than any other negotiating president in the past.



Is that the only answer, to keep repeating the same fight in different places every couple decades? There is no better solution than that?
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:53:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
The only historical model for this we have is Rome, and they always LEFT the locals in charge, just like we are doing in Iraq, under supervision, untill they BEGGED to be in the Roman Empire.



Rome is a very good analogy for the United States today… but the United States is missing one very important facet of Roman Foreign Policy.

Rome was a friend to those that accepepted it's hand but an implaccable enemy to those that did not. If you shit on Rome you knew, no questions asked, no if's, but's or maybe's, that the Roman Army WOULD decend upon your country and lay it waste, their usually policy was to kill every living thing, even the dogs! So mostly people left Rome alone because annoying then would bring truly catastrophic vengence down upon you.

As yet, the United States has shown enormous self restraint, however the third world peasants don't see that as noble or civilised restraint, they see that as 'weakness'… make an example of somebody and the message will get across and the rest will fall into line. After all, Hiroshima and Nagasaki concentrated an aweful lot of minds!

Andy
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 2:59:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
I am begining to wonder. How many countries are we going to have to conquer before we are allowed to live our lives here in peace?

Will we have to fight and conquer just the third world? Just the Islamic countries.

I think we are well started on the road to conquering the Middle East. But what will the response of the rest of the world be?

Will the EU turn against us out of fear and loathing? France already seems well started down that path.

Will China and Russia try to re-arm?

But as colossal as this job sounds, might it be our only path for the long term existance of our nation?




So as long as it is the USA that is the leader in the New World Order

your OK with it ???
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:14:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 3:22:12 AM EST by ABNAK]
Democracy in the Middle East is a double edged sword. Yes, it may work to our advantage in some cases. But what happens when you have a country in which the average Joe (or Muhammed in this case) actually HATES the U.S.? If you make that country democratic then you will have a nation that elects a government hostile to us---and we were the ones who helped it happen! Then you won't be able to argue that some despot is keeping the people suppressed, it is in fact the people themselves who despise us.

We need to start thinking in terms of the Muslim "mindset". If the people hate us we need to treat them accordingly. Give them the benefit of the doubt at first but if they aren't playing nice then put the fear of God into 'em! Respect comes from love or fear. If they won't love us then they MUST fear us. To hell with this pussyfooting that's going on in Iraq. The parts of the country that are acting civil will be treated fairly. The rebellious parts should be mercilessly crushed. Anyone that doesn't like it can go fuck themselves. "It ain't for ya to like".

Bottom line: a hostile population should be treated like as much of an enemy as it's standing army is. The "Arab street" is part of the problem. Until they have their tunes changed (either nicely or violently) we will still have problems. Unfortunately I don't think W or anyone else has the balls to be brutal IF NECESSARY. That's what it will take.


Edited to add: Spare me the Nazi comparisons. We didn't start this thing.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:19:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
I am begining to wonder. How many countries are we going to have to conquer before we are allowed to live our lives here in peace?

Will we have to fight and conquer just the third world? Just the Islamic countries.

I think we are well started on the road to conquering the Middle East. But what will the response of the rest of the world be?

Will the EU turn against us out of fear and loathing? France already seems well started down that path.

Will China and Russia try to re-arm?

But as colossal as this job sounds, might it be our only path for the long term existance of our nation?




So as long as it is the USA that is the leader in the New World Order

your OK with it ???



Unless you can form a credible, logical alternative, that does not involve endless fighting every couple years...
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:22:49 AM EST
YOU WILL NEVER TAKE US ALIVE!!

NEVER!!!!

Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:26:24 AM EST
No, it's just necessary that other assholistic countries and their millions of worthless shitmallet residents stop with the 9/11 type stuff for there to be world peace. Oh yeah - and don't massacre your own citizens.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:29:16 AM EST
Violence is in our nature. War will always be a part of our lives. The world has never been without conflict, never will be.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:34:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By FiftyCalibre:
YOU WILL NEVER TAKE US ALIVE!!

NEVER!!!!




News Flash

Untill you guys down there started passing kooky gun laws how much difference was there REALLY between your goverment and ours?

If you pass more european style socialist crap there could be trouble in the future but right now we are just very happy that that is one sector of the world we do NOT have to worry about. Occasionally helping us with actions elsewhere is fantastic, but keeping a 1/8th chunk of the world quite is IMHO more useful than troop commitments!

I would say that it is NOT really the US that the Islamic population of South East Asia is most concerned about right now.....
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:36:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:
The only historical model for this we have is Rome, and they always LEFT the locals in charge, just like we are doing in Iraq, under supervision, untill they BEGGED to be in the Roman Empire.



Rome is a very good analogy for the United States today… but the United States is missing one very important facet of Roman Foreign Policy.

Rome was a friend to those that accepepted it's hand but an implaccable enemy to those that did not. If you shit on Rome you knew, no questions asked, no if's, but's or maybe's, that the Roman Army WOULD decend upon your country and lay it waste, their usually policy was to kill every living thing, even the dogs! So mostly people left Rome alone because annoying then would bring truly catastrophic vengence down upon you.

As yet, the United States has shown enormous self restraint, however the third world peasants don't see that as noble or civilised restraint, they see that as 'weakness'… make an example of somebody and the message will get across and the rest will fall into line. After all, Hiroshima and Nagasaki concentrated an aweful lot of minds!

Andy




I agree with the Brit. Unfortunately, I don't believe the Roman Empire was full of John Kerrys just waiting to appease and placate. The Peace movement, the Rise of Liberalism and the belief that Talks and Treaties are more noble than Force have weakened our resolve as a whole. And I do believe that these trends, begun with Woodrow Wilson and the League of Nations, are irreversible.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:37:43 AM EST
Read "The Pentagons New Map" if you are really interested. Check it on the 'net.
Our military is having to change now due to us being the only super power and the vacum that that leaves. After USSR fell all the hot spots started burning and we are going to have to take care of them.
The middle East (and other third world areas) has to be included in all the connectivity and exchange of funds and technology that they were left out of in the 90's.
As long as they are not "connected" they are going to have a population that has no reward in sight for doing the "right" things.
No I'm not a liberal. The things in this book have to happen or we will have decades more terrorist acts and we will have another super power come up to challenge us.
Some are thinking of some large powerful countries now that may challenge us in the future, not so if theye are making money and a trading partner with the big boys.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:38:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hokie:
Violence is in our nature. War will always be a part of our lives. The world has never been without conflict, never will be.



Yes but violence can be exercised through CRIME.

Young men don't need armies to get their rocks off, street gangs will do just fine.

People who want to exercise some ability for violence but remain within the law can be police.

Warfare between nations can be eliminated (by eliminating nation-states), but that would not reduce violence, but it would be violence between individuals and small groups, with less capacity or desire for MASS destruction and casualties, less global disruption.
Link Posted: 10/29/2004 3:49:36 AM EST

I agree with the Brit. Unfortunately, I don't believe the Roman Empire was full of John Kerrys just waiting to appease and placate. The Peace movement, the Rise of Liberalism and the belief that Talks and Treaties are more noble than Force have weakened our resolve as a whole. And I do believe that these trends, begun with Woodrow Wilson and the League of Nations, are irreversible.



The Empire wasn't, the REPUBLIC was a different matter. Read Goldsworthys Punic Wars Republican Rome, with its citizen army, was very reluctant to go to war, and wanted it ended ASAP. Which indeed caused it MORE problems than if it had sought the destruction of its enemy (THREE Punic wars were fought after all). It had to LEARN how to be a bastard.

This is a double edged sword, learning to field a crushing military machine and getting the neighbors to submit or die also brought down the Republic. So care must be taken. But we have better communications and data processing than the Romans.

Had the Romans merely had the printing press and paper, the Republic probably would not of fallen, instantanious digital communication and air travel makes it much more difficult for a Imperial pretender to arise in the US but only if people WANT to oppose him.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 2:10:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl:

Originally Posted By Hokie:
Violence is in our nature. War will always be a part of our lives. The world has never been without conflict, never will be.



Yes but violence can be exercised through CRIME.

Young men don't need armies to get their rocks off, street gangs will do just fine.

People who want to exercise some ability for violence but remain within the law can be police.

Warfare between nations can be eliminated (by eliminating nation-states), but that would not reduce violence, but it would be violence between individuals and small groups, with less capacity or desire for MASS destruction and casualties, less global disruption.




OMG ---
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 4:41:42 AM EST
Yes. The situation pretty closely emulates the Pax Romana.

We will have to continue our subjigation or overthrow of despotic regimes in the Middle East. Iran & Syria are next on the list...after the election. North Korea is on the agenda as well.

Yes...the EU will fight us. Hell...even after WW II, Churchill warned of a huge, newly powerful America turning its gigantic wartime industrial engine..."The Arsenal of Democracy" into an equally powerful peacetime economic engine. He feared American economic and to a lesser extent, American cultural, hegemony. Well, guess what? It happened.

There are lots of bad people out there...telling their sheeple what to do. There are also lots of jealous people out there who envy US. Envy is a very easy emotion to generate...but a difficult one to subdue.

The Bush doctrine is, despite the French, Germans, Russians and our own Left, working out pretty well. We have exported democracy around the world, toppled dictators and brought freedom to MILLIONS of peoples all over the world. Wars have ended, lifespans are lengthening, and people who have lived under war clouds for decades are now living in peace and beginning to prosper. Except for Bosnia...Clinton never did any of this.

The Left hate this doctrine. Only THEY can meddle in the affairs of others.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 6:22:20 AM EST
This is going to take a while then.

But if Bin Laden is in Iran?
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 6:42:42 AM EST
How about we just leave everybody ALONE and mind our own business!!! Maybe there will be peace then.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 6:47:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By A2sights:
How about we just leave everybody ALONE and mind our own business!!! Maybe there will be peace then.



Umm, excuse me, who did not leave WHO alone to start all this?

Libertarian
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 7:00:32 AM EST
The Chinese love any distractions that keep the US occupied while they build their economy and influence; they intend to be the dominant world power by 2030.

Until the citizens of this country start paying attention beyond the soap operas, entertainment "news", and nightly inane television programing, we will continue to lose our grasp. There are a few men that are sincerely concerned with the preservation of the Republic, but I'm not sure they can scotch the slide when it really gets going.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 7:08:01 AM EST
why are you so quick to through out a troll? the fact is the US started this many years ago. the other guys got in a good shot and now every one is pissed. the problems of the world start right here with our western views. we are a nation of I want it all right now. we have our 13 year old girls looking like prostitutes. we are the ones that put grandpa in an old folks home because it is to much trouble to care for him. take away the so called terrorists and we will still fall on our faces.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 7:10:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By occaar:
why are you so quick to through out a troll? the fact is the US started this many years ago. the other guys got in a good shot and now every one is pissed. the problems of the world start right here with our western views. we are a nation of I want it all right now. we have our 13 year old girls looking like prostitutes. we are the ones that put grandpa in an old folks home because it is to much trouble to care for him. take away the so called terrorists and we will still fall on our faces.



Troll number 2

We are the most successful country on the planet. There is no reason why we should backslide and start aping the third world.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 7:33:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By occaar:
why are you so quick to through out a troll? the fact is the US started this many years ago. the other guys got in a good shot and now every one is pissed. the problems of the world start right here with our western views. we are a nation of I want it all right now. we have our 13 year old girls looking like prostitutes. we are the ones that put grandpa in an old folks home because it is to much trouble to care for him. take away the so called terrorists and we will still fall on our faces.



You ignorance of how people dress and treat the elderly in the rest of the world is blatantly obvious.
Link Posted: 10/30/2004 7:34:46 AM EST
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