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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/5/2005 11:08:07 AM EDT
I know they need to be much better prepared for taking control over their own affairs once we leave Iraq (if we ever do) but it just makes me nervous. One good thing in our favor when we first went in is they cant shoot for shit, so now we are teaching them how even though their ranks are filled with traitors and terrorists. They were our enemy just a year ago, shit, in a lot of ways many still are. I just cant help but feel this will bit us in the butt one day down the road.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:09:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 11:10:17 AM EDT by TheRedHorseman]
people said that when we sold the Iraqis armored vehicles(namely M113 TOW vehicles) it would bite us in the ass.

end result? we stripped the vehicles that we sold them years ago for parts to keep the Army and Marines vehicles running.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:10:04 AM EDT
We just need to learn to adapt that's all.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:11:04 AM EDT
Think about what you just said.

How are we ever going to leave if they can't defend themselves from the terrorists?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:11:40 AM EDT
No, but we need to stop using our SF to train them in unconventional warfare, because that COULD come back to bite us in the ass when the Iraqi forces know more than regular US forces.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:13:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Think about what you just said.

How are we ever going to leave if they can't defend themselves from the terrorists?



the same way we left gernmany and japan after WWII.

i don't think we should leave.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:24:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 11:29:22 AM EDT by CookieCrisp]

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Think about what you just said.

How are we ever going to leave if they can't defend themselves from the terrorists?



Drop a nuke on them and call it a day.

Edit to add: We should just teach them how to be good at intel gathering, then the Iraqis could IED the terrorists before the terrorist could do it to them. They seem to be good at the IED tactic already.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:26:02 AM EDT
hopefully, we teach them all they know, not all we know...
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:26:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tyman:
No, but we need to stop using our SF to train them in unconventional warfare, because that COULD come back to bite us in the ass when the Iraqi forces know more than regular US forces.



Yes, thats what got me to thinking. I was reading an article about the recent offensive we are conducting in reponse to the Marine snipers that were killed (RIP). It said Iraqi SF units were involved and I was just Oh jeez, we sure as shit dont need to teach them that kind of stuff, let alone how to shoot straight.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:28:15 AM EDT
They will still be arabs, and therefore incompetent at war. The best we can hope for is making them a little less incompetent than the terrorists.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:31:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
They will still be arabs, and therefore incompetent at war. The best we can hope for is making them a little less incompetent than the terrorists.



We tried to train Kuwati armored cavalry units. Thee GD weeks,a nd, they wouldn't clean their tank's filters, wouldn't boresight, and, simply said if Allah wanted thier rounds to hit, they would, and, if he didn't they would miss.

If anyone thinks Iraqi "Special Forces" units could take our guys, they've never tired to train Arabs.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:32:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
They will still be arabs, and therefore incompetent at war. The best we can hope for is making them a little less incompetent than the terrorists.



The truth hurts. You can only teach them so much.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:36:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By david_g17:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:
Think about what you just said.

How are we ever going to leave if they can't defend themselves from the terrorists?



the same way we left gernmany and japan after WWII.

i don't think we should leave.




Ok...Signifigantly reduce our presence? Speaking from having been there, I'd much rather be in Germany or Japan than in THAT s-hole waiting to have an IED for lunch.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:41:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
They will still be arabs, and therefore incompetent at war. The best we can hope for is making them a little less incompetent than the terrorists.



The truth hurts. You can only teach them so much.


you know, why is that??? iraq, kuwait, egypt, pakistan, even saudi arabia; we dump billions of bucks and training into these armies but they're still shitbags! the only ones who've really measured up are the jordanians.

BUT, you take these fucktards out of their countries and put 'em in the corps or the army and they're just as good as the next swinging dick...why is that???

it's even worse with africans!
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:45:43 AM EDT
Its the force of numbers. In their country they have to conform to the norm which is incompetence and total faith in allah.

Well the first thing I learn in Sunday school was that God helps those that help themselves.

That is the reason that they will never amount to a real fighting force. And if they do, they will be too busy killing themselves and other arabs to be much of a threat to us.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:47:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
They will still be arabs, and therefore incompetent at war. The best we can hope for is making them a little less incompetent than the terrorists.



The truth hurts. You can only teach them so much.


you know, why is that??? iraq, kuwait, egypt, pakistan, even saudi arabia; we dump billions of bucks and training into these armies but they're still shitbags! the only ones who've really measured up are the jordanians.

BUT, you take these fucktards out of their countries and put 'em in the corps or the army and they're just as good as the next swinging dick...why is that???

it's even worse with africans!



easy, leadership.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:48:14 AM EDT
Cultural thing. When you are around professionals, it generally rubs off to some extent. If you aren't then, you don't. Kinda like if you walk into a room at a new job. Everyone else, including the boss is sitting down, smoking and joking, chances are you will soon be too. If everyone is working a milke a minute, chances are you will too.

The have religion for their spiritual whitwash. "Allah wills it."
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:50:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Its the force of numbers. In their country they have to conform to the norm which is incompetence and total faith in allah.

Well the first thing I learn in Sunday school was that God helps those that help themselves.

That is the reason that they will never amount to a real fighting force. And if they do, they will be too busy killing themselves and other arabs to be much of a threat to us.



Yep. And why thier culture isn't much past stone age. Instruction to european muslims from thier mullahs include "Do not urinate in your drinking wells." Sound advice, for somone in the 4th century.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:57:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By ARDOC:
Its the force of numbers. In their country they have to conform to the norm which is incompetence and total faith in allah.

Well the first thing I learn in Sunday school was that God helps those that help themselves.

That is the reason that they will never amount to a real fighting force. And if they do, they will be too busy killing themselves and other arabs to be much of a threat to us.



Yep. And why thier culture isn't much past stone age. Instruction to european muslims from thier mullahs include "Do not urinate in your drinking wells." Sound advice, for somone in the 4th century.



Exactly, I cant think of another religion that tells you to sit on your ass and prey that it will come true. But they hate each other more then us. If they do get nukes they will eventually nuke each other.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:58:03 AM EDT

We need to build an NCO corps and the military will then be able to run itself from within.

Training the uneducated masses is a waste of our time over there.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:59:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:01:35 PM EDT
It worked out real well in Afganistan, remember a guy named Bin Laden. I remember when we trained the Afgans who at the time were fighing the Russians.

Now the Russians are our friends and the Afgans are our enemies.

I see a movie starring Patrick Swayze - "Afgan Dawn"
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:05:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
It worked out real well in Afganistan, remember a guy named Bin Laden. I remember when we trained the Afgans who at the time were fighing the Russians.

Now the Russians are our friends and the Afgans are our enemies.

I see a movie starring Patrick Swayze - "Afgan Dawn"



They weren't at the time. Worked out just fine, actually, but, it wasn't our training as much as our supplies. The Muj tactics in Afganistan weren't much changed fundamentaly from the days of fighting the Brits.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:11:46 PM EDT
they are goat herders..... nuff said
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:12:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
It worked out real well in Afganistan, remember a guy named Bin Laden. I remember when we trained the Afgans who at the time were fighing the Russians.

Now the Russians are our friends and the Afgans are our enemies.

I see a movie starring Patrick Swayze - "Afgan Dawn"



They weren't at the time. Worked out just fine, actually, but, it wasn't our training as much as our supplies. The Muj tactics in Afganistan weren't much changed fundamentaly from the days of fighting the Brits.



They werent AT THE TIME is exactly my point. We supplied and trained them and now they are fighting against us. This is why it is so important to complete the mission in Iraq and not do it half assed. If we leave prematurely, it will come back to bite us in the ass. In a few years we will be fighting a better trained, better supplied Iraqi army. Thanks to the American tax dollar and the blood of our soldiers. We need to leave Iraq only when they can control their own politics and people and when we have as good relations with them as possible.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:19:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Szurgot:

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By Szurgot:
It worked out real well in Afganistan, remember a guy named Bin Laden. I remember when we trained the Afgans who at the time were fighing the Russians.

Now the Russians are our friends and the Afgans are our enemies.

I see a movie starring Patrick Swayze - "Afgan Dawn"



They weren't at the time. Worked out just fine, actually, but, it wasn't our training as much as our supplies. The Muj tactics in Afganistan weren't much changed fundamentaly from the days of fighting the Brits.



They werent AT THE TIME is exactly my point. We supplied and trained them and now they are fighting against us. This is why it is so important to complete the mission in Iraq and not do it half assed. If we leave prematurely, it will come back to bite us in the ass. In a few years we will be fighting a better trained, better supplied Iraqi army. Thanks to the American tax dollar and the blood of our soldiers. We need to leave Iraq only when they can control their own politics and people and when we have as good relations with them as possible.



I agree with staying and training the, as you say. I simply will tell you if you don't think we could turn around and smash into ribbons an Iraqi army we train ourselves, you are mistaken. It will be as easy as it was the first two times. The tactics they are using agasint us now are taught in thier own camps, more than capably.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:25:03 PM EDT
It's a MUST if we want to get out of that shithole
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:30:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
They will still be arabs, and therefore incompetent at war. The best we can hope for is making them a little less incompetent than the terrorists.


The Jordanians did damn well in 67 and 49.
The only variable is leadership.



The last time an Arab army didn't lose to a western army was the Crusades in the 1400's.
Beginning with Nepoleon kicking the Egyptians asses in 1798, there has not been a single instance of an Arab army defeating a non-arab army.

The Iraqis couldn't even beat the Iraians after fighting for 8 years and suffering 375000 casualties.

Their culture doesn't not encourge taking the initiative. So building an American syle army will not work. We develop leadership from the bottom up. 21 year old American SGTs know how to take charge and carry out the mission in the absence of orders. That's something we can never teach an Arab. They aren't raised that way. You might as well try to teach a pig to sing.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:37:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Goonboss:

Originally Posted By green-grizzly:
They will still be arabs, and therefore incompetent at war. The best we can hope for is making them a little less incompetent than the terrorists.



We tried to train Kuwati armored cavalry units. Thee GD weeks,a nd, they wouldn't clean their tank's filters, wouldn't boresight, and, simply said if Allah wanted thier rounds to hit, they would, and, if he didn't they would miss.

If anyone thinks Iraqi "Special Forces" units could take our guys, they've never tired to train Arabs.



I knew that they were backward over there, but DAMN!!!
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