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Posted: 10/3/2011 7:56:43 AM EST



In interior (not mixed interior/exterior) home defense situations, buckshot and slugs are totally out of the question, unless perhaps you are using them in a .410 shotgun.



"Article"

Trap and skeet loads are recommended as well as Glaser for handguns. Massive bucket full of fail and AIDS with holes in it, slopping its contents all over the puppies and kittens.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 7:57:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:02:42 AM EST by dorobuta]
box-o-truth has the answers you seek....Click here

you may choose differently after visiting the site...
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:00:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:00:46 AM EST by bluezerosix]
#1 buckshot at the minimum, IMHO.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:01:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Massive bucket full of fail and AIDS with holes in it, slopping its contents all over the puppies and kittens.


Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:01:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By dorobuta:
box-o-truth has the answers you seek....


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Only read the thread title in a rush to be first.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:02:09 AM EST
Wow...

Here is the only response:

Mr. Scott Wagner, what you've written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent article were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone that reads your article is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:02:55 AM EST
I use a tube of 00 buck and 000 buck.
If a bad guy is in my home and I am face-to-face with him and forced to pull the trigger I want death and nothing besides.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:03:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By Silence:
Wow...

Here is the only response:

Mr. Scott Wagner, what you've written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent article were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone that reads your article is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Well played.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:03:20 AM EST
No because the bad guy can not be over dead.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:03:49 AM EST
But, I read it in a magazine so it must be true.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:03:59 AM EST
Fuck that! Come into my home uninvited and you're getting a face full of .00 Buck Shot all while my GSD rips your nuts off.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:04:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Trap and skeet loads are recommended as well as Glaser for handguns.


I hit a guy twice under the left arm pit with Glaser Safety Slugs. The shots were 4" apart and he was turned sideways and running from my right to left.

His heavy leather jackets caused the Glasers to open prematurely and he made it another 200 yards behind my house and into the river bottoms before bleeding out.

Had he been intent on continuing the fight, he and his partner could have put serious hurt on me before he died.

I now carry Hornady XTPs.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:04:39 AM EST
I just happened to watch a First 48 re-run the other day. Some guy got killed with birdshot when he came to the front door. The producers of that show need to be reading more arfcom.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:04:47 AM EST
merely pointing out a better source than the article. At least one person followed with a buckshot recommendation, which I expected.

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By dorobuta:
box-o-truth has the answers you seek....


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Only read the thread title in a rush to be first.


Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:06:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By SIPCAT-C:
I use a tube of 00 buck and 000 buck.
If a bad guy is in my home and I am face-to-face with him and forced to pull the trigger I want the threat to be stopped and nothing besides.


FIFY to help you out in court if you're ever involved in a defensive shooting.




Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:07:02 AM EST
With the proliferation of even low level body armor, I don't use anything less then buck, and slugs at the end incase the buck hasen't stopped the threat.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:07:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By SIPCAT-C:
I use a tube of 00 buck and 000 buck.
If a bad guy is in my home and I am face-to-face with him and forced to pull the trigger I want death and nothing besides.


Tests have indicated that you can generate greater tissue damage and reduced penetration with #1 or 0 size buck but if you choose to use a shotgun for HD, and you want to stoke it with 00 or 000, you are certainly not undergunned. 00 tends to be less expensive than most other loads so you have the opportunity to train with it more and that's a good thing.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:07:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By dorobuta:
merely pointing out a better source than the article. At least one person followed with a buckshot recommendation, which I expected.

Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By dorobuta:
box-o-truth has the answers you seek....


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Only read the thread title in a rush to be first.




I'll bet you're a hoot at parties.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:08:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By Silence:
Wow...

Here is the only response:

Mr. Scott Wagner, what you've written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent article were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone that reads your article is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


They removed the comment.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:10:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
I just happened to watch a First 48 re-run the other day. Some guy got killed with birdshot when he came to the front door. The producers of that show need to be reading more arfcom.


I hope that most people realize that birdshot can kill. .22 shorts can kill. But if someone is intent on causing me harm, I don't want them dead; I want them to stop.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:10:54 AM EST
The only thing that is overkill for home defense is whatever kills you by you pulling the trigger. For instance, if you fire off a grenade launcher at the bad guy and the blast/shrapnel kills you as well, that may be overkill. On the flip side, if you are far enough away from the bad guy when the grenade impacts him that you are safe, it was not overkill.

A nuclear device for home defense would be overkill. Buckshot in a 12 gauge sounds like a good start.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:12:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:12:59 AM EST by SIPCAT-C]
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By SIPCAT-C:
I use a tube of 00 buck and 000 buck.
If a bad guy is in my home and I am face-to-face with him and forced to pull the trigger I want death and nothing besides.


Tests have indicated that you can generate greater tissue damage and reduced penetration with #1 or 0 size buck but if you choose to use a shotgun for HD, and you want to stoke it with 00 or 000, you are certainly not undergunned. 00 tends to be less expensive than most other loads so you have the opportunity to train with it more and that's a good thing.


Good point.

I shoot a lot of 00 out of my 12ga shotguns.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:12:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By dorobuta:


Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By dorobuta:
box-o-truth has the answers you seek....


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Only read the thread title in a rush to be first.

merely pointing out a better source than the article. At least one person followed with a buckshot recommendation, which I expected.


My bad. Looked like the comment was directed at me in answer to the "question" in the thread title.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:13:36 AM EST

This means that if you hit an offender square on (facing you) with 00 buckshot, even with a

lower velocity reduced recoil load, the pellets can and do punch right out the back, endangering others


That's something I'd be willing to deal with.



The law enforcement community dumped the use of #4 buckshot as a duty load and went

back to 00 buck when we began finding out that #4 wasn’t giving the desired penetration.


I don't understand the point of the article other than to educate people that double ought buck is a killer and #4 not so much.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:14:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By wilNva:
With the proliferation of even low level body armor, I don't use anything less then buck, and slugs at the end incase the buck hasen't stopped the threat.


Most soft body armor will stop even slugs from penetrating. Backface deformation with IIA and no plate might be another issue. If you're concerned about armor, though, .223/5.56mm is what you're looking for.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:15:28 AM EST
Ignorant is fixable. Stupid...not so much.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:16:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By HUMONGO:
Originally Posted By Silence:
Wow...

Here is the only response:

Mr. Scott Wagner, what you've written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent article were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone that reads your article is now dumber for having read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


They removed the comment.


I hadnt added it yet...

Now I have...lets see if it goes through moderation.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:16:46 AM EST
Make sure they are DIRT ( Dead Instantly Right There ) , use buckshot .
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:18:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
I just happened to watch a First 48 re-run the other day. Some guy got killed with birdshot when he came to the front door. The producers of that show need to be reading more arfcom.


I hope that most people realize that birdshot can kill. .22 shorts can kill. But if someone is intent on causing me harm, I don't want them dead; I want them to stop.


There is nothing wrong with dead as long as it is the bad guy dead. It may not be your intention to kill but to stop. If he is dead he will stop I promise you. My goal in a defensive shooting is to stop the threat also. The likelihood of them dieing is great but that is not my intention.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:19:50 AM EST

I have my moments...


Originally Posted By Ventilator:
['ll bet you're a hoot at parties.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:22:23 AM EST
#4 Buck rocks.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:23:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:24:44 AM EST by Overdose]
I'm wondering how many people who've posted here have actually read the article the OP linked to.

Because I read the article and I don't know what half of you are talking about.

ETA: but then again, I'm confused even by the article.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:23:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
No because the bad guy can not be over dead.



Gonna have to go with this.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:24:00 AM EST
Originally Posted By sum-rifle:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
I just happened to watch a First 48 re-run the other day. Some guy got killed with birdshot when he came to the front door. The producers of that show need to be reading more arfcom.


I hope that most people realize that birdshot can kill. .22 shorts can kill. But if someone is intent on causing me harm, I don't want them dead; I want them to stop.


There is nothing wrong with dead as long as it is the bad guy dead. It may not be your intention to kill but to stop. If he is dead he will stop I promise you. My goal in a defensive shooting is to stop the threat also. The likelihood of them dieing is great but that is not my intention.



That's exactly the point I was trying to make. I'm fine with dead. They'll have a lot harder time being a pest to good people in the future if'n they are room temperature. Dead two hours later on the operating table doesn't help me much, though.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:24:22 AM EST
Can't make him any deader,

Maybe you are worried about style points?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:25:37 AM EST
I prefer rock salt in my HD shotgun. It really stings, and they pretty much get the point, and leave.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:27:48 AM EST
The author sounds like he may be one of those LEOs who is disturbed at the thought of civilians with more firepower than "the authorities".



"Remember, they only spread one inch per yard, and at close range it is a lot like getting hit with a single, solid projectile."

No its not



"If you have overpenetration concerns, you may want to closely examine whether a shotgun is the best weapon to choose. A lower powered handgun, which can still punch through a wall, but is only putting a single projectile at a time through it (assuming you are missing your intended target), may work out better for you, especially in an apartment where there are neighbors close at hand."

I suppose he also believs that having your child act as a target holder while shooting a handgun is safer than while shooting a shotgun.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:29:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/f/e/fe1a0-Not_this_shit_again.jpg


In interior (not mixed interior/exterior) home defense situations, buckshot and slugs are totally out of the question, unless perhaps you are using them in a .410 shotgun.



"Article"

Trap and skeet loads are recommended as well as Glaser for handguns. Massive bucket full of fail and AIDS with holes in it, slopping its contents all over the puppies and kittens.


I just got done reading that fail-fest (was in my email inbox), then came over here to see if it had been posted yet. Once again, GD is on the case.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:30:41 AM EST
Birdshot is overkill ;)

Seriously 00 is the best for my needs

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:33:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By FreeFloater:
I prefer rock salt in my HD shotgun. It really stings, and they pretty much get the point, and leave.


I like nickles myself

"Keep the change ! ! "
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:33:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By RIO-lover:
#4 Buck rocks.


Not so much. At very close, almost contact range, it does pretty well but if the shot column has opportunity to separate at all, the penetration often doesn't meet the minimum of 12" recommended by the FBI and most competent defense experts. In other words: if you shoot a man who is holding the barrel of your shotgun, the load works well, If you shoot a man from across your living room, not so much.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:33:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By Makarov:
The author sounds like he may be one of those LEOs who is disturbed at the thought of civilians with more firepower than "the authorities".



"Remember, they only spread one inch per yard, and at close range it is a lot like getting hit with a single, solid projectile."

No its not



"If you have overpenetration concerns, you may want to closely examine whether a shotgun is the best weapon to choose. A lower powered handgun, which can still punch through a wall, but is only putting a single projectile at a time through it (assuming you are missing your intended target), may work out better for you, especially in an apartment where there are neighbors close at hand."

I suppose he also believs that having your child act as a target holder while shooting a handgun is safer than while shooting a shotgun.


He's a college professor and administrator. He's also into IPSC.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:34:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Overdose:
I'm wondering how many people who've posted here have actually read the article the OP linked to.

Because I read the article and I don't know what half of you are talking about.

ETA: but then again, I'm confused even by the article.


Basically, he seems to be saying that when overpenetration or barrier penetration is a serious concern, you should use birdshot and handgun rounds like Glasers, but if overpenetration isn't as high on your list of concerns, go with buckshot.

I still think he gives an overly optimistic appraisal of the effectiveness of birdshot and target loads.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:35:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
I just happened to watch a First 48 re-run the other day. Some guy got killed with birdshot when he came to the front door. The producers of that show need to be reading more arfcom.


I hope that most people realize that birdshot can kill. .22 shorts can kill. But if someone is intent on causing me harm, I don't want them dead; I want them to stop.


A 12GA slug COM will "stop" someone pretty quick.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:40:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By cornholio123:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
I just happened to watch a First 48 re-run the other day. Some guy got killed with birdshot when he came to the front door. The producers of that show need to be reading more arfcom.


I hope that most people realize that birdshot can kill. .22 shorts can kill. But if someone is intent on causing me harm, I don't want them dead; I want them to stop.


A 12GA slug COM will "stop" someone pretty quick.


Generally, yes. Buckshot is still likely to cause more tissue damage and result in a quicker stop, all other factors being equal. If you choose a shotgun for home defense, you should keep the magazine loaded with buckshot. Slugs should stay on the side saddle, butt cuff, or Speedfeed stock unless you end up in the extremely unlikely position of having to shoot someone farther than 25m.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:44:48 AM EST
I would agree that slugs are a poor choice for MOST people.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:48:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By wilNva:
With the proliferation of even low level body armor, I don't use anything less then buck, and slugs at the end incase the buck hasen't stopped the threat.


Most soft body armor will stop even slugs from penetrating. Backface deformation with IIA and no plate might be another issue. If you're concerned about armor, though, .223/5.56mm is what you're looking for.


That's why the AR is next to the shotgun, both loaded and ready to go. I figure even with armor 11 rounds from a 12 gauge will hopefully slow someone enough I can fall back and grab the AR.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:49:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Plumbata:
Originally Posted By Makarov:
The author sounds like he may be one of those LEOs who is disturbed at the thought of civilians with more firepower than "the authorities".



"Remember, they only spread one inch per yard, and at close range it is a lot like getting hit with a single, solid projectile."

No its not



"If you have overpenetration concerns, you may want to closely examine whether a shotgun is the best weapon to choose. A lower powered handgun, which can still punch through a wall, but is only putting a single projectile at a time through it (assuming you are missing your intended target), may work out better for you, especially in an apartment where there are neighbors close at hand."

I suppose he also believs that having your child act as a target holder while shooting a handgun is safer than while shooting a shotgun.


He's a college professor and administrator. He's also into IPSC.


From the link in the article;

"Scott W. Wagner is Commander of the Columbus State Community College Police Academy and 727 Counter Terror Training Unit (www.cscc.edu/cttu) and a member of the National Tactical Officers Association (NOTA); the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers; and International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association."


Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:53:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 8:56:15 AM EST by Plumbata]
Yep, college professor and administrator. Essentially, a politician. Community College academy is not a police dept.

You will note that no where on his little resume does he say that he's EVER worked in a Law enforcement capacity. .
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 8:56:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:
Originally Posted By wilNva:
With the proliferation of even low level body armor, I don't use anything less then buck, and slugs at the end incase the buck hasen't stopped the threat.


Most soft body armor will stop even slugs from penetrating. Backface deformation with IIA and no plate might be another issue. If you're concerned about armor, though, .223/5.56mm is what you're looking for.


That's why the AR is next to the shotgun, both loaded and ready to go. I figure even with armor 11 rounds from a 12 gauge will hopefully slow someone enough I can fall back and grab the AR.


I'd be more comfortable with one or the other. Moving to another place in the house is not something I'd like to try in the event of failure to stop. Body armor is a fairly unlikely concern so you ought to be fine with the 12ga. If it's something you're worried about, go with the AR from the beginning. For the record, my primary HD gun is an 11.5" suppressed AR.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 9:03:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 9:03:15 AM EST by MDracer76]
I'll be dispensing 00 buck shot mouthwash to any uninvited 'guests' at my home.
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