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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:10:44 PM EST
Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc.

No squaring off to target for body armor.


Anything else?
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:20:25 PM EST
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated".
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:21:27 PM EST
Perfectly good program. Especially for hunters. Not so much if you think you're tacticool and doing room clearing. Different skills, different purposes. The guy who had been the head of it in my state, stated that he had been very much in the close fast work and later realized that he didn't really know how to shoot.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:22:05 PM EST
Just because people don't use slings as a shooting aid doesn't mean they shouldn't.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:23:14 PM EST
I really enjoyed it, and became a better shot.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:24:25 PM EST
Great program.

Not antiquated at all.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:24:55 PM EST
It depends on your target demographic. For someone who's never been exposed to basic rifle marksmanship, it's good. If you already have that training then look elsewhere. I don't think it's something you need to spend months and months doing but is a good first step.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:26:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JVD:
Just because people don't use slings as a shooting aid doesn't mean they shouldn't.
View Quote
Exactly! I think it's one the most often overlooked, yet useful and practical accessories you can add to a rifle.
I'm always amazed at how many people don't put slings on their rifles!

And as another poster said, the basics of marksmanship never go out of style. A matter of fact, many of the uber-tactical couch operators
around here would serve themselves well to get back to the basics.
And that is what Appleseed stresses, the basics.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:27:53 PM EST
That Goddamn first post thing....
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:28:24 PM EST
They are teaching marksmanship. Squaring up on a target doesn't help you shoot better. Using a sling does.

Teach people the fundamentals first. They can learn the ninja operator technique of the day later.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:29:53 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated".
View Quote
Fpni.

Reading, writing , marksmanship.

I can count to potato later.

Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:30:07 PM EST
I guess it's safe to assume that OP washed out of his Appleseed.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:31:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated".
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:31:44 PM EST
Not to mention it's 99% about the history and planting seeds of a love and better understanding of liberty.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:32:08 PM EST
People who don't learn fundamentals will always be shitty shooters and cap out on their skill level early.

Appleseed teaches fundamentals.

Is it antiquated?  Yes it is, fundamentals haven't changed much for almost 200 years.

Does that mean it's irrelevant? Fuck no.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:36:47 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated".
View Quote
Preach It Brother™
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:41:34 PM EST
FPNI

As for slings that nobody uses anymore, I shot a bison in January from my well practiced, slung up sitting position. Last september I shot a 28" buck up behind my place, sitting, slung up.

Learning to shoot from field positions is very useful for hunters.

I've been to Appleseed, and organized their event at my range for some years. My background is competitive shooting, and I think the fundamentals they teach are vital.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:46:41 PM EST
Not sure if OP is troll or idiot.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:47:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 8:52:04 PM EST by cttb]
Yes and no. They teach good rifle marksmanship fundamentals for a very low price. I recommend the program to anyone. At the same time, they are overly wed to the USGI/M1903 sling techniques and overly hostile to optics. I think they would be well served to spend more time on unsupported positions, i.e. no sling, and a little time on the use of different kinds of slings.

A USGI or an M1903 is a remarkable tool that can get you close to a bipod in stability in prone. However, it's slow to get set up and requires you to expose yourself in the process. More versatile options exist now, including bipods. Similarly, more and more shooters use optics. There's no good reason for Appleseed to try so hard to persuade people to use irons.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:51:47 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperSet72:
It depends on your target demographic. For someone who's never been exposed to basic rifle marksmanship, it's good. If you already have that training then look elsewhere. I don't think it's something you need to spend months and months doing but is a good first step.
View Quote
This.

But there is almost always some retard who pops into an Appleseed thread and claims that they can make everyone into a better shooter. No, they can't. If you are an experienced high power shooter, or qualified expert in the Corps, etc., then an Appleseed is not going to make you better. But it lays down basic fundamentals for people who have never had any training. And as already noted in this thread, those fundamentals are never "antiquated".
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:52:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2017 3:04:25 PM EST by raf]
Originally Posted By patchouli:
Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc.

No squaring off to target for body armor.

Anything else?
View Quote


Squaring off to your target is about the stupidest fucking idea anyone's ever had.

I'd rather be a small target.

If you don't know how to use a sling, you're a fucking moron and shouldn't be shooting. A sling is one of the bedrock fundamentals of good shooting.

You can bring whatever gun you want to an Appleseed. I've seen guys there with 22lr's and the most tricked out AR's and absolutely everything in between. The beauty of an Appleseed is that everyone is there to learn something and there's no judgement.

Let me guess, you know it all. AmIRight?

No need to call people "morons".  It's possible to make your point without being insulting or intentionally offensive.  raf 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:53:01 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cttb:
Yes and no. They teach good rifle marksmanship fundamentals for a very low price. I recommend the program to anyone. At the same time, they are overly wed to the USGI/M1903 sling techniques and overly hostile to optics. I think they would be well served to spend more time on unsupported positions, i.e. no sling, and a little time on the use of different kinds of slings.

A USGI or an M1903 is a remarkable tool that can get you close to a bipod in stability in prone. However, it's slow to get set up and requires you to expose yourself in the process. More versatile options exist now, including bipods. Similarly, more and more shooters use optics. There's no good reason for Appleseed to try so hard to persuade people to use irons.
View Quote
But muh CMP Garands to arm the world. Yea they need to modernize a bit but it is a good program. 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:54:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated".
View Quote
You act like marksmanship techniques used 20 years ago are still cannon. Yes the core principles are the same but half of the shit that was common practice 20 years ago is mocked these days.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:54:21 PM EST
It's a great way to introduce kids and new gun folk to shooting!  Nothing you learn there is a waste.  (That includes the history lessons when on break.) 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:55:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 8:56:14 PM EST by Orbital-Burn]
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported.

And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:55:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 9:03:55 PM EST by ourichie]
Ive been shooting close to 25 years. I attended Appleseed for the first time this past april and came out an even better marksman than i went in. They teach fundamentals which everyone should learn.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:57:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JAD762:
I guess it's safe to assume that OP washed out of his Appleseed.
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:57:37 PM EST
I used an ar15 and a Magpul sling.  They helped me accommodate to that.  GREAT program.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:58:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 10:16:34 PM EST by Lomshek]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JAD762:
I guess it's safe to assume that OP washed out of his Appleseed.
View Quote
nope he made rifleman

Correction. He did OK but did not make Rifleman. He used a broken sight 10/22 for the lulz.

He did a thread on it a year or two ago.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:01:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cttb:
Yes and no. They teach good rifle marksmanship fundamentals for a very low price. I recommend the program to anyone. At the same time, they are overly wed to the USGI/M1903 sling techniques and overly hostile to optics. I think they would be well served to spend more time on unsupported positions, i.e. no sling, and a little time on the use of different kinds of slings.

A USGI or an M1903 is a remarkable tool that can get you close to a bipod in stability in prone. However, it's slow to get set up and requires you to expose yourself in the process. More versatile options exist now, including bipods. Similarly, more and more shooters use optics. There's no good reason for Appleseed to try so hard to persuade people to use irons.
View Quote
that was not my experience at all at my first Appleseed.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:01:31 PM EST
Fundamentals are....uh....fundamental.

Or not, it's a free America. More or less.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:05:27 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Orbital-Burn:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported.

And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand.
View Quote
#shitihearaboutontheinternetbutalmostnoon­ecandoIRL
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:06:04 PM EST
Originally Posted By patchouli:
Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc.

No squaring off to target for body armor.

Anything else?
View Quote


Which two-day $60 class is better?

I'll wait patiently for the answer
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:07:34 PM EST
Its low cost as a major factor shouldn't be underestimated. I think it's also one of the big reasons why Front Sight is so popular.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:12:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Turboguy:


Squaring off to your target is about the stupidest fucking idea anyone's ever had.

I'd rather be a small target.

If you don't know how to use a sling, you're a fucking moron and shouldn't be shooting. A sling is one of the bedrock fundamentals of good shooting.

You can bring whatever gun you want to an Appleseed. I've seen guys there with 22lr's and the most tricked out AR's and absolutely everything in between. The beauty of an Appleseed is that everyone is there to learn something and there's no judgement.

Let me guess, you know it all. AmIRight?
View Quote
Or, perhaps, you are new to shooting and are taking a course that will teach you the fundamentals with minimal investment. Perhaps not everyone is born a super ninja tactical warrior. ymmv
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:24:46 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Orbital-Burn:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported.

And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand.
View Quote


You realize those tasks require the fundamentals and position shooting like taught in Appleseed to do right?  Especially offhand at 600?
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:26:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 9:28:06 PM EST by Thump_rrr]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Orbital-Burn:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported.

And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand.
View Quote
I help run and shoot a 2 day precision rifle and clinic 4 times a year for the last 4 years.

We shoot out to 600M

Half are regulars and the other half are new to precision rifle shooting.
All come well equipped with quality rifles and scopes. More than 1/2 fall apart in the shooting department past 300m.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:43:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Nick710:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated".
View Quote
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:47:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 9:50:35 PM EST by patchouli]
Jeesh A lot of you are real angry
I was just asking


To expand what I was talking about.

Yes slings are great, I like slings, they work.
But nobody is using leather cuff slings and old ww2 usgi slings anymore. I haven't seen one at a store ever and I don't know any sites that sell them out of the regular sites I visit.
Not to mention you don't usually find yourself having a lot of time to cuff up and get in a perfect sitting position shooting.

https://youtu.be/pkrBN5Is5Z8


They don't teach really useful things like rear bags and pillows to take up dead space and building good positions other than old ww2 stuff. There is almost always something to rest upon out there.

I've been watching a lot of precision rifle matches hoping to maybe try it sometime. Don't see much of the ww2 positions.

Example

https://youtu.be/YdOsTqs0ArQ


And particularly THIS was the one that led me to think about it recently...

Yes, fundamentals... Yes you build off them, but I was just thinking it seemed a little out dated.


I did a appleseed shoot like 5 years ago or so, with a busted rear sight in my 10/22. Did okay. Didn't like seated position at all. Didn't get rifleman patch but did pretty good despite the gun. I don't remember score but I remember grouping well despite the site, just slightly off of scoring.

Might try it again soon

Only target I found in my like from that class.

..
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:52:11 PM EST
The fundamentals of their marksmanship and shooting is solid. But they get drowned out with all of their political BS and their quasi-historical story telling.

And their executive leadership has a real ego problem.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:52:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Turboguy:


Squaring off to your target is about the stupidest fucking idea anyone's ever had.

I'd rather be a small target.

If you don't know how to use a sling, you're a fucking moron and shouldn't be shooting. A sling is one of the bedrock fundamentals of good shooting.

You can bring whatever gun you want to an Appleseed. I've seen guys there with 22lr's and the most tricked out AR's and absolutely everything in between. The beauty of an Appleseed is that everyone is there to learn something and there's no judgement.

Let me guess, you know it all. AmIRight?
View Quote
It's stupid,
Right up until someone puts a round through your chest armpit to armpit because they hit you in the only place you didn't have a plate/armor protecting your vitals

Which is the reason they teach squaring up
And stability, since 95% of what folks are shooting at on here is unlikely to shoot back
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:55:24 PM EST
Wish Appleseed would count for CMP affiliation.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:57:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rabidus:
Wish Appleseed would count for CMP affiliation.
View Quote
Membership in their "Revolutionary War Veterans Association" does. Or at least is used to.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:01:17 PM EST
I enjoyed the several that I went to. I became a more accurate shooter but never got my patch. I was always short about 10 points or less. I plan to try and take my oldest son sometime later this year if one is close enough.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:03:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 10:04:28 PM EST by patchouli]
Hadn't thought about the Appleseed in a long time. Just searched for my original thread on the one I did. Has pics of my rifle in it.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1396998_-ARCHIVED-THREAD-doing-an-appleseed-shoot-tomorrow.html&page=1
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:08:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GlockLuvinRedleg:


It's stupid,
Right up until someone puts a round through your chest armpit to armpit because they hit you in the only place you didn't have a plate/armor protecting your vitals

Which is the reason they teach squaring up
And stability, since 95% of what folks are shooting at on here is unlikely to shoot back
View Quote
That's how my wife's dad was killed in the line of duty, with a handgun, while wearing a vest.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:13:44 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By patchouli:
Jeesh A lot of you are real angry

To expand what I was talking about.

Yes slings are great, I like slings, they work.
But nobody is using leather cuff slings and old ww2 usgi slings anymore. I haven't seen one at a store ever and I don't know any sites that sell them out of the regular sites I visit.
Not to mention you don't usually find yourself having a lot of time to cuff up and get in a perfect sitting position shooting.

https://youtu.be/pkrBN5Is5Z8


They don't teach really useful things like rear bags and pillows to take up dead space and building good positions other than old ww2 stuff. There is almost always something to rest upon out there.

I've been watching a lot of precision rifle matches hoping to maybe try it sometime. Don't see much of the ww2 positions.

Example

https://youtu.be/YdOsTqs0ArQ


And particularly THIS was the one that led me to think about it recently...

Yes, fundamentals... Yes you build off them, but I was just thinking it seemed a little out dated.


I did a appleseed shoot like 5 years ago or so, with a busted rear sight in my 10/22. Did okay. Didn't like seated position at all. Didn't get rifleman patch but did pretty good despite the gun. I don't remember score but I remember grouping well despite the site, just slightly off of scoring.

Might try it again soon
View Quote
Sorry I thought you made it. I remember your thread.

Is Appleseed outdated? For what kind of shooting?

Nobody is going to win a PRS type match with an AR and a sling but no one is going to win a 10K run and gun match by humping a PRS rifle, bags, bipod and Kestrel either. A person starts to appreciate a lighter rifle with fewer snag points on it when you sling up and run 2 miles on trails and rougher terrain between stages.

Is Appleseed marksmanship training relevant? Yes as others have pointed out hitting the target is hitting the target whether you're squared up or bladed at 45.

Some of us in the Appleseed program have modified the methods taught to match what has been proven to work in modern times while still taking advantage of the enhanced stability of the sling. Less blading and closer to squared up, less "touch the trigger this way" and more "touch the trigger such that you don't pull the sights off target". Whether you get old school dogma or a more modern technique depends on the instructor's background and knowledge.

As far as the sling goes I totally agree that outside of a competition on a flat range the old loop sling or 1903 sling is useless. I've modified a Vickers sling to work as a much improved & simplified Ching Sling that is a normal 2 point sling for "patrol" carry and can instantly be used as a shooting sling without any weird contortions. Maybe I'll sell them if I'm happy with the design.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:17:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:27:14 PM EST
OP totally misses the point.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:34:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 10:39:50 PM EST by TheOtherDave]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RomeoDeltaEcho:
I really enjoyed it, and became a better shot.
View Quote
+1, it's good instruction.

I did the long range clinic at Camp Atterbury JMTC on the 500m range, everyone there that I saw was getting good hits on the first day out to 3-400m, standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone using a sling. It's good instruction if you can take 100 or so people and get them all shooting to that level in amorning to afternoon of work, in the summer heat, pruposely getting the students dehydrated and tired from humping gear several hundred yards after every shot. I was really impressed with their operation.

They teach to a WW1 shooting standard of a 1 man with a rifle capable of consistently shooting 4MOA with the rifle and ammo he brings to the party. That man can dominate 160 square acres of open ground. I'd say that is a pretty valuable level of training, that is to be combat effective rather than to be a sniper.

ETA: our targets were prone silhouette, which makes it even more impressive. The people running the course didn't care if your used irons or optics.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 10:36:45 PM EST
@rabidus

Appleseed does count for CMP. We have certificates at each shoot for CMP eligibility if a shooter wants one. CMP is pretty lax these days anyway and will accept proof of any organized shooting as qualifying. USPSA, IDPA, and any number of others have been accepted. I seem to recall a guy in our club being told a hunter education certificate would be adequate.

@cttb

If an individual Appleseed instructor pushed iron sights over optics they went off script. Appleseed's policy is run what you brung and everything is the instructor training emphasizes to never bash someone's gun or gear. Emphasizing irons over optics is like telling a mixed crowd of paralyzed and able bodied people that if you don't run a marathon you're not "really" doing it. If an instructor did that they were wrong and should feel bad.

@Orbital-Burn
Originally Posted By Orbital-Burn:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported.

And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand.
View Quote
I must have missed your entry if the 1 MOA ALL DAY LONG challenge. Could you point it out?
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