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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:20:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated".
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:21:27 PM EDT
[#2]
Perfectly good program. Especially for hunters. Not so much if you think you're tacticool and doing room clearing. Different skills, different purposes. The guy who had been the head of it in my state, stated that he had been very much in the close fast work and later realized that he didn't really know how to shoot.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:22:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Just because people don't use slings as a shooting aid doesn't mean they shouldn't.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:23:14 PM EDT
[#4]
I really enjoyed it, and became a better shot.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:24:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Great program.
Not antiquated at all. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:24:55 PM EDT
[#6]
It depends on your target demographic. For someone who's never been exposed to basic rifle marksmanship, it's good. If you already have that training then look elsewhere. I don't think it's something you need to spend months and months doing but is a good first step.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:26:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just because people don't use slings as a shooting aid doesn't mean they shouldn't. I'm always amazed at how many people don't put slings on their rifles! And as another poster said, the basics of marksmanship never go out of style. A matter of fact, many of the uber-tactical couch operators around here would serve themselves well to get back to the basics. And that is what Appleseed stresses, the basics. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:27:53 PM EDT
[#8]
That Goddamn first post thing....
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:28:24 PM EDT
[#9]
They are teaching marksmanship. Squaring up on a target doesn't help you shoot better. Using a sling does.
Teach people the fundamentals first. They can learn the ninja operator technique of the day later. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:29:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated". Reading, writing , marksmanship. I can count to potato later. 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:30:07 PM EDT
[#11]
I guess it's safe to assume that OP washed out of his Appleseed.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:31:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated". |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:31:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Not to mention it's 99% about the history and planting seeds of a love and better understanding of liberty.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:32:08 PM EDT
[#14]
People who don't learn fundamentals will always be shitty shooters and cap out on their skill level early.
Appleseed teaches fundamentals. Is it antiquated? Yes it is, fundamentals haven't changed much for almost 200 years. Does that mean it's irrelevant? Fuck no. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:36:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated". |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:41:34 PM EDT
[#16]
FPNI
As for slings that nobody uses anymore, I shot a bison in January from my well practiced, slung up sitting position. Last september I shot a 28" buck up behind my place, sitting, slung up. Learning to shoot from field positions is very useful for hunters. I've been to Appleseed, and organized their event at my range for some years. My background is competitive shooting, and I think the fundamentals they teach are vital. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:46:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Not sure if OP is troll or idiot.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:47:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Yes and no. They teach good rifle marksmanship fundamentals for a very low price. I recommend the program to anyone. At the same time, they are overly wed to the USGI/M1903 sling techniques and overly hostile to optics. I think they would be well served to spend more time on unsupported positions, i.e. no sling, and a little time on the use of different kinds of slings.
A USGI or an M1903 is a remarkable tool that can get you close to a bipod in stability in prone. However, it's slow to get set up and requires you to expose yourself in the process. More versatile options exist now, including bipods. Similarly, more and more shooters use optics. There's no good reason for Appleseed to try so hard to persuade people to use irons. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:51:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It depends on your target demographic. For someone who's never been exposed to basic rifle marksmanship, it's good. If you already have that training then look elsewhere. I don't think it's something you need to spend months and months doing but is a good first step. But there is almost always some retard who pops into an Appleseed thread and claims that they can make everyone into a better shooter. No, they can't. If you are an experienced high power shooter, or qualified expert in the Corps, etc., then an Appleseed is not going to make you better. But it lays down basic fundamentals for people who have never had any training. And as already noted in this thread, those fundamentals are never "antiquated". |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:52:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc. No squaring off to target for body armor. Anything else? Squaring off to your target is about the stupidest fucking idea anyone's ever had. I'd rather be a small target. If you don't know how to use a sling, you're a fucking moron and shouldn't be shooting. A sling is one of the bedrock fundamentals of good shooting. You can bring whatever gun you want to an Appleseed. I've seen guys there with 22lr's and the most tricked out AR's and absolutely everything in between. The beauty of an Appleseed is that everyone is there to learn something and there's no judgement. Let me guess, you know it all. AmIRight? No need to call people "morons". It's possible to make your point without being insulting or intentionally offensive. raf |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:53:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes and no. They teach good rifle marksmanship fundamentals for a very low price. I recommend the program to anyone. At the same time, they are overly wed to the USGI/M1903 sling techniques and overly hostile to optics. I think they would be well served to spend more time on unsupported positions, i.e. no sling, and a little time on the use of different kinds of slings. A USGI or an M1903 is a remarkable tool that can get you close to a bipod in stability in prone. However, it's slow to get set up and requires you to expose yourself in the process. More versatile options exist now, including bipods. Similarly, more and more shooters use optics. There's no good reason for Appleseed to try so hard to persuade people to use irons. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:54:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated". |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:54:21 PM EDT
[#23]
It's a great way to introduce kids and new gun folk to shooting! Nothing you learn there is a waste. (That includes the history lessons when on break.)
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:55:03 PM EDT
[#24]
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported.
And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:55:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Ive been shooting close to 25 years. I attended Appleseed for the first time this past april and came out an even better marksman than i went in. They teach fundamentals which everyone should learn.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:57:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess it's safe to assume that OP washed out of his Appleseed. 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:57:37 PM EDT
[#27]
I used an ar15 and a Magpul sling. They helped me accommodate to that. GREAT program.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:58:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess it's safe to assume that OP washed out of his Appleseed. Correction. He did OK but did not make Rifleman. He used a broken sight 10/22 for the lulz. He did a thread on it a year or two ago. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:01:00 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes and no. They teach good rifle marksmanship fundamentals for a very low price. I recommend the program to anyone. At the same time, they are overly wed to the USGI/M1903 sling techniques and overly hostile to optics. I think they would be well served to spend more time on unsupported positions, i.e. no sling, and a little time on the use of different kinds of slings. A USGI or an M1903 is a remarkable tool that can get you close to a bipod in stability in prone. However, it's slow to get set up and requires you to expose yourself in the process. More versatile options exist now, including bipods. Similarly, more and more shooters use optics. There's no good reason for Appleseed to try so hard to persuade people to use irons. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:01:31 PM EDT
[#30]
Fundamentals are....uh....fundamental.
Or not, it's a free America. More or less. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:05:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported. And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:06:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc. No squaring off to target for body armor. Anything else? Which two-day $60 class is better? I'll wait patiently for the answer 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:07:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Its low cost as a major factor shouldn't be underestimated. I think it's also one of the big reasons why Front Sight is so popular.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:12:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Squaring off to your target is about the stupidest fucking idea anyone's ever had. I'd rather be a small target. If you don't know how to use a sling, you're a fucking moron and shouldn't be shooting. A sling is one of the bedrock fundamentals of good shooting. You can bring whatever gun you want to an Appleseed. I've seen guys there with 22lr's and the most tricked out AR's and absolutely everything in between. The beauty of an Appleseed is that everyone is there to learn something and there's no judgement. Let me guess, you know it all. AmIRight? |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:24:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported. And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand.
You realize those tasks require the fundamentals and position shooting like taught in Appleseed to do right? Especially offhand at 600? |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:26:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported. And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand. We shoot out to 600M Half are regulars and the other half are new to precision rifle shooting. All come well equipped with quality rifles and scopes. More than 1/2 fall apart in the shooting department past 300m. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:43:38 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marksmanship fundamentals will never become "antiquated". |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:47:52 PM EDT
[#38]
Jeesh A lot of you are real angry
I was just asking To expand what I was talking about. Yes slings are great, I like slings, they work. But nobody is using leather cuff slings and old ww2 usgi slings anymore. I haven't seen one at a store ever and I don't know any sites that sell them out of the regular sites I visit. Not to mention you don't usually find yourself having a lot of time to cuff up and get in a perfect sitting position shooting. https://youtu.be/pkrBN5Is5Z8 They don't teach really useful things like rear bags and pillows to take up dead space and building good positions other than old ww2 stuff. There is almost always something to rest upon out there. I've been watching a lot of precision rifle matches hoping to maybe try it sometime. Don't see much of the ww2 positions. Example https://youtu.be/YdOsTqs0ArQ And particularly THIS was the one that led me to think about it recently... Yes, fundamentals... Yes you build off them, but I was just thinking it seemed a little out dated. I did a appleseed shoot like 5 years ago or so, with a busted rear sight in my 10/22. Did okay. Didn't like seated position at all. Didn't get rifleman patch but did pretty good despite the gun. I don't remember score but I remember grouping well despite the site, just slightly off of scoring. Might try it again soon Only target I found in my like from that class.  ..
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:52:11 PM EDT
[#39]
The fundamentals of their marksmanship and shooting is solid. But they get drowned out with all of their political BS and their quasi-historical story telling.
And their executive leadership has a real ego problem. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:52:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Squaring off to your target is about the stupidest fucking idea anyone's ever had. I'd rather be a small target. If you don't know how to use a sling, you're a fucking moron and shouldn't be shooting. A sling is one of the bedrock fundamentals of good shooting. You can bring whatever gun you want to an Appleseed. I've seen guys there with 22lr's and the most tricked out AR's and absolutely everything in between. The beauty of an Appleseed is that everyone is there to learn something and there's no judgement. Let me guess, you know it all. AmIRight? Right up until someone puts a round through your chest armpit to armpit because they hit you in the only place you didn't have a plate/armor protecting your vitals Which is the reason they teach squaring up And stability, since 95% of what folks are shooting at on here is unlikely to shoot back |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:55:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Wish Appleseed would count for CMP affiliation.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 10:57:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wish Appleseed would count for CMP affiliation. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:01:17 PM EDT
[#43]
I enjoyed the several that I went to. I became a more accurate shooter but never got my patch
 . I was always short about 10 points or less. I plan to try and take my oldest son sometime later this year if one is close enough.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:03:28 PM EDT
[#44]
Hadn't thought about the Appleseed in a long time. Just searched for my original thread on the one I did. Has pics of my rifle in it.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1396998_-ARCHIVED-THREAD-doing-an-appleseed-shoot-tomorrow.html&page=1 |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:08:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's stupid, Right up until someone puts a round through your chest armpit to armpit because they hit you in the only place you didn't have a plate/armor protecting your vitals Which is the reason they teach squaring up And stability, since 95% of what folks are shooting at on here is unlikely to shoot back |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:13:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jeesh A lot of you are real angry To expand what I was talking about. Yes slings are great, I like slings, they work. But nobody is using leather cuff slings and old ww2 usgi slings anymore. I haven't seen one at a store ever and I don't know any sites that sell them out of the regular sites I visit. Not to mention you don't usually find yourself having a lot of time to cuff up and get in a perfect sitting position shooting. https://youtu.be/pkrBN5Is5Z8 They don't teach really useful things like rear bags and pillows to take up dead space and building good positions other than old ww2 stuff. There is almost always something to rest upon out there. I've been watching a lot of precision rifle matches hoping to maybe try it sometime. Don't see much of the ww2 positions. Example https://youtu.be/YdOsTqs0ArQ And particularly THIS was the one that led me to think about it recently... Yes, fundamentals... Yes you build off them, but I was just thinking it seemed a little out dated. I did a appleseed shoot like 5 years ago or so, with a busted rear sight in my 10/22. Did okay. Didn't like seated position at all. Didn't get rifleman patch but did pretty good despite the gun. I don't remember score but I remember grouping well despite the site, just slightly off of scoring. Might try it again soon Is Appleseed outdated? For what kind of shooting? Nobody is going to win a PRS type match with an AR and a sling but no one is going to win a 10K run and gun match by humping a PRS rifle, bags, bipod and Kestrel either. A person starts to appreciate a lighter rifle with fewer snag points on it when you sling up and run 2 miles on trails and rougher terrain between stages. Is Appleseed marksmanship training relevant? Yes as others have pointed out hitting the target is hitting the target whether you're squared up or bladed at 45. Some of us in the Appleseed program have modified the methods taught to match what has been proven to work in modern times while still taking advantage of the enhanced stability of the sling. Less blading and closer to squared up, less "touch the trigger this way" and more "touch the trigger such that you don't pull the sights off target". Whether you get old school dogma or a more modern technique depends on the instructor's background and knowledge. As far as the sling goes I totally agree that outside of a competition on a flat range the old loop sling or 1903 sling is useless. I've modified a Vickers sling to work as a much improved & simplified Ching Sling that is a normal 2 point sling for "patrol" carry and can instantly be used as a shooting sling without any weird contortions. Maybe I'll sell them if I'm happy with the design. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:17:57 PM EDT
[#47]
WW1 slings and iron sights the Marines don't bother with anymore? He's not 100% wrong to bring it up.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:27:14 PM EDT
[#48]
OP totally misses the point.
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:34:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really enjoyed it, and became a better shot. I did the long range clinic at Camp Atterbury JMTC on the 500m range, everyone there that I saw was getting good hits on the first day out to 3-400m, standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone using a sling. It's good instruction if you can take 100 or so people and get them all shooting to that level in amorning to afternoon of work, in the summer heat, pruposely getting the students dehydrated and tired from humping gear several hundred yards after every shot. I was really impressed with their operation. They teach to a WW1 shooting standard of a 1 man with a rifle capable of consistently shooting 4MOA with the rifle and ammo he brings to the party. That man can dominate 160 square acres of open ground. I'd say that is a pretty valuable level of training, that is to be combat effective rather than to be a sniper. ETA: our targets were prone silhouette, which makes it even more impressive. The people running the course didn't care if your used irons or optics. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:36:45 PM EDT
[#50]
@rabidus
Appleseed does count for CMP. We have certificates at each shoot for CMP eligibility if a shooter wants one. CMP is pretty lax these days anyway and will accept proof of any organized shooting as qualifying. USPSA, IDPA, and any number of others have been accepted. I seem to recall a guy in our club being told a hunter education certificate would be adequate. @cttb If an individual Appleseed instructor pushed iron sights over optics they went off script. Appleseed's policy is run what you brung and everything is the instructor training emphasizes to never bash someone's gun or gear. Emphasizing irons over optics is like telling a mixed crowd of paralyzed and able bodied people that if you don't run a marathon you're not "really" doing it. If an instructor did that they were wrong and should feel bad. @Orbital-Burn Quoted:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000. Now it needs to be updates. There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported. And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand. |
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