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Posted: 8/13/2005 9:21:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 9:24:22 PM EDT by Epsilon]
Me and some friends got into an argument a few days ago. We were talking about about Hitler...and during the conversation I said something like "I do admire one thing about Hitler...he was very gifted in his ability to present speeches and being able to inspire and motivate."
Alot of my friends thought that I was sick and twisted for saying that.

I know he used these "gifts" for unspeakable evils and I believe he is in deepest circles of hell for it.

So is it wrong to admire Hitler in any way?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:22:51 PM EDT
i don't think admire is the right word.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:25:38 PM EDT
nothing is wrong with it, people are just too fucking sensitive.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:25:52 PM EDT

This discussion occanally comes up when I talk to the MBAs about leadership.

Was Hitler and "effective leader" or not? It's a valid question, and he clearly had that hard-to-define charismatic abililty to communicate and influence people. He was clearly also a very effective political manipulator.

I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to analyze the ways in which he clearly was very effective at some things - while keeping it in the context of his warped motivations, and horrible eventual failure, making his followers have to pay a hell of a price.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:27:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 9:29:25 PM EDT by WolfAR15]

Originally Posted By Epsilon:
Me and some friends got into an argument a few days ago. We were talking about about Hitler...and during the conversation I said something like "I do admire one thing about Hitler...he was very gifted in his ability to present speeches and being able to inspire and motivate."
Alot of my friends thought that I was sick and twisted for saying that.

I know he used these "gifts" for unspeakable evils and I believe he is deepest circles of hell for it.

So is it wrong to admire Hitler in any way?



yes & no. you dont actually admire 'him' you actually admire a trait of his, i.e. his ability to make great speeches etc. But that trait is one held by many people not just him.

A more proper way to say what you did would be to say: "I do admire his ability to present speeches and inspire and motivate. Its too bad he had to be such an asshole."



Admiring a trait that someone has is NOT admiring them. And if you 'did' admire hitler there would be something wrong with you.

hope this helps.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:28:47 PM EDT
He had a fine mustache, to bad it went out of style afterwards.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:30:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:32:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 9:33:39 PM EDT by mgw1181]
Churchill said something similar, before WWII of course.

"One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

* Winston Churchill, Hitler and His Choice, "The Strand Magazine", November 1935

Hitler chose to use his talents for evil.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:33:02 PM EDT
No, he rallied a war torn country into a first rate world power, anyone who can do that is worthy of admiration. However, he also used this ability to get millions killed, overly negatting any positives to come out of that POS.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:33:13 PM EDT
I'm reminded of a Penthouse cartoon, featuring a gray haired old man in a faded SA uniform (complete with armband), sporting a gray, bushy moustache, smiling slyly at a bespectacled "career counselor", behind a desk who says:

Can you be a little more specific about 'being a preminent motivator of ment in a changing world'?




Admire? No, if only for his directed actions and results of his world view. It would be akin to calling Ted Bundy your "male role model" because of how many babes he scored with.... before killing them, of course.

He was an unaturally gifted orator, with a definite public presence.... charisma, perhaps.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:33:25 PM EDT
He was one hell of a leader. I know his country was in ruins when he came to power. He turned them into a superpower.

Crazy that one man can start something like that. He was in the military as a young man but didn't advance in rank very far because "he lacked leadership skills".
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:33:57 PM EDT
no, absolutely not. he was an amazing leader, he just led his country down the wrong path. to get an entire country under his control, and.......well its tired and i cant think of the word. but watching the videos, they loved that country and had some serious pride.

granted the world might be better off if he never lived, but there is no arguing against the fact he was a phenomenal (but twisted) leader
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:34:54 PM EDT
the juice goes nuts on ncaa when u unlock the classic teams...i admire him for rushing 400+ on my dyansty team
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:34:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Was Hitler and "effective leader" or not? It's a valid question, and he clearly had that hard-to-define charismatic abililty to communicate and influence people. He was clearly also a very effective political manipulator.



I'd say no. Yeah, he could talk nice and both lead a horse to water and make him drink, but he also seemed to like to totally ignore the advice and knowledge of his generals, or anybody else.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with "admiring", if that's the right word, people who are, well, bad. Some German generals knew how to fight, some behaved like gentleman, etc. You come across this in military history, somebody you really shouldn't like doing something brilliant. I maybe wouldn't call it "admire" so much as "I respect what you did, but I'd still shoot you". I don't know if that made sense.

But Hitler? I don't think there's anything worth admiring about him at all. Hitler was an idiot.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:35:54 PM EDT
Nothing wrong at all. Keep in mind that the economic and political condition of Germany at his time was VERY volitile and why he quickly rose to acclaim. He had some genuine realistic goals originally, although I find no excuse for blizkrieg. That aside, a unified Europe was a tangible goal for him. But, the Waterloo came his way and similarly ruined his aspersions. Instead of a genious he became a megalomaniac. Sorry but true imo.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:36:44 PM EDT
Let's just call him a Democrat and get it over with He was anti-gun, they are anti-gun, nuff said. Seriously, could he motivate, hell yes. I even feel like getting inspired when I see those clips of him speaking, he obviously had some passion there. Kinda like the Howard Dean scream
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:37:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MDC85:
nothing is wrong with it, people are just too fucking sensitive.



+1
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:37:21 PM EDT
I dont see anythign wrong with it. I mean he was a genius at it, just watch some small movie clips of him making a speech. You have no idea what he's sayign because it's german, but damn you will notice he means business.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:38:41 PM EDT
Admire is a fairly positive word.

Is there really any value in your saying how you "feel" about his talent, rather than just saying it was powerful or unique?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:41:11 PM EDT
I admire him for what he to his country in the 30's. He took a broke country with no military, and in a decade almost took over all of Europe and only failed because he attacked Russia to early. He should have concentrated all his forces on the rest of Europe and defeating the Americans, then attacked Russia. He should be admired for how handled rebuilding his country into a super power. He should be despised for what he did to the jews and the gypsies and whoever else he tried to get ride of.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:43:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rasanders22:
I admire him for what he to his country in the 30's. He took a broke country with no military, and in a decade almost took over all of Europe and only failed because he attacked Russia to early. He should have concentrated all his forces on the rest of Europe and defeating the Americans, then attacked Russia. He should be admired for how handled rebuilding his country into a super power. He should be despised for what he did to the jews and the gypsies and whoever else he tried to get ride of.




but kicking the living shit out of us wouldve ben ok in your book? wtf?
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:46:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 9:48:17 PM EDT by steve-oh]
Didn't that lady who used to own some baseball team say "Hitler was a good guy at first" back in the day?


ETA - Marge Schott, owner of the Red's, 1996.
"Everybody knows he was good at the beginning, but he just went too far."

she was fined $25,000 and suspended for it.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:46:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MDC85:

Originally Posted By rasanders22:
I admire him for what he to his country in the 30's. He took a broke country with no military, and in a decade almost took over all of Europe and only failed because he attacked Russia to early. He should have concentrated all his forces on the rest of Europe and defeating the Americans, then attacked Russia. He should be admired for how handled rebuilding his country into a super power. He should be despised for what he did to the jews and the gypsies and whoever else he tried to get ride of.




but kicking the living shit out of us wouldve ben ok in your book? wtf?



No. But if I was him thats what I would have done. And the whole not commit massive extermination of people I dont like.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:48:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 9:53:17 PM EDT by rogerdodger]
it seemed pretty easy to motivate people of a country in shambles.

Give them a scapegoat, like the Jews and your off to the races.

If Germany had a thriving economy at the time , he'd just be another crackpot.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:49:22 PM EDT
IMHO, Hitler's speech-making and ability to hypnotize and stir up the masses was demonically inspired. I have watched his speeches, and he has a very wild-eyed look, like you sometimes see in folks like that girl in The Exorcist. I know some folks don't believe in that sort of thing, but that is my opinion.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 9:52:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By afplayboy18:

Originally Posted By MDC85:
nothing is wrong with it, people are just too fucking sensitive.



+1



+2
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:17:49 PM EDT
Im really impressed with all you guy's responses. It heartening to hear that you all infact have the
correct balance of knowledge. You know you only have to look at Napoleon to see a close comparisson. I am German, and regret that Hitler was as evil as he was. Please, this was a fact so dont debate
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:18:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 10:19:47 PM EDT by Marco]
dble post
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:24:35 PM EDT
There are things that he did that were pretty damn amazing....Same with Stalin....They were some of the most impressive leaders of their times......And thankfully both are roasting slowly upons the flames of Hell.

Even Clinton had some attributes that were at least remarkable, like being able to convince his wife that blowjobs are not a reason for divorce.

All of these guys had some attribute that helped them attain power, sway the people, alter public opinion, rally the troops etc, so there are plenty of things that one can learn from them, but I do not think that there is anything in any of them to admire.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 10:31:00 PM EDT
It depends on your values.

If you value truth above all else then no.

I always found it silly that certain people felt compelled to portray him exclusively as a monster. This is why footage of him being kind to children is not shown, this is why his artwork is not shown (unless it is being criticized as "amatuerish") and this is why someone felt compelled to re edit the 1936 Olympic footage to make it appear as if he sat down in disgust after the Jesse Owens win.

And the reason the above never made sense to me is it isn't that difficult to demonstrate Adolf was NOT a nice person in many ways. Pretty much just have to read his book if you can suffer your way through it.

In fact Mein Kampf is a perfect example. Parts of it are brilliant and intuitive. The rest of it drones on and on and he tells you the same goddamn fucking thing over and over twenty different ways fully convinced he has told you twenty NEW and DIFFERENT ideas. And a good portion of it is simply WRONG. He wasn't the most original thinker, most of the ideas in Mein Kampf were not his and more than a few of them he had a shaky understanding of to begin with.

And again the worst thing about Mein Kampf are the people who feel that it is a genuine threat to society or humanity. If you wanted to stamp out this nonsense once and for all make it required reading. If you think Hitler was truly and enlightened individual read Mein Kampf and watch Triumph of the Will. Both amazed me, not for the brilliant oratory or writing that is generally attributed to him, but for the fact that people of the 20th century actually bought into this crap. Of course people of the same age also thought communism was a brilliant idea that would work so there you go.

If one is going to be honest Hitler was just a man. He had good and bad in him and did both depending upon circumstance and occassion. On one hand he was something of a brilliant statesman who performed the economic miracle of getting Germany out of one of the worst depressions of the 20th Century (something not even FDR could pull off without wartime production). At this stage he was a hero to most Germans and probably did genuinely care about the people and country of Germany. On the other hand when he was losing his ass in 1944-45 he decided he'd rather see it all go down in flames than fail to live up to his vision. Hardly the same Hitler who cared about Germany's best interests.

Also he could care about small children and loved animals. By the same token he could put into place a system that would put children to death for simply being who they were. Quite the contradiction.

Early in his life he was a decorated soldier who must have understood concepts of honor, loyalty and duty. Later he would consign men he suppossedly respected above all others to lost battles they couldn't possibly win by the thousands. So much for values.

Perhaps the worst thing about Adolf Hitler is what he represents. And I don't mean National Socialism or Anti Semetism. The worst thing about Hitler is that he proves a educated person who is seemingly normal and has a brilliant capacity for intellect can become a monster. If Adolf had been something of a Charles Manson type who early on was clearly insane nobody would be surpised by his actions.

And that is why it isn't popular to see Adolf as any kind of normal person, and it is offensive to many to admire any of his qualities.

And to be absolutely fair, if it was your Grandfather who was put into a camp and worked to death for no other reason than the fact that he was of Slavik origin you probably wouldn't want to hear too damn much about Hitler the artist or Hitler the architect either.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:03:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CavVet:

Originally Posted By afplayboy18:

Originally Posted By MDC85:
nothing is wrong with it, people are just too fucking sensitive.



+1



+2



+3

Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:07:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Epsilon:
Me and some friends



Some friends and I

SGatr15
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:08:57 PM EDT
He was great at what he did, do I admire him no.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:16:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 11:17:17 PM EDT by echo459]
Hitler was a vegitarian and did not smoke or drink booze.
I find that kinda odd. I mean WTF.
and he was Austrian to boot!

Damn Hapsburgs!



eta. booze
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:16:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Epsilon:
Me and some friends



Some friends and I

SGatr15



grammar nazi!
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:16:23 PM EDT
I've always felt it is fair to give credit where credit it due.

Apply that axiom to any situation you may.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:16:52 PM EDT
It was pissing me off...I just couldn't get past it.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:18:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jerret:
I dont see anythign wrong with it. I mean he was a genius at it, just watch some small movie clips of him making a speech. You have no idea what he's sayign because it's german, but damn you will notice he means business.



There were clear techniques with his mid-nite rallys and torch lit sermons. Ohhh..I do understand German, and the translated context does not do the speech any favors. There are some ethnic slurs you dont hear nor talked about.

Be smart....be informed
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:18:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Painter:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By Epsilon:
Me and some friends



Some friends and I

SGatr15



grammar nazi!




Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:23:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It was pissing me off...I just couldn't get past it.

Sgat1r5




Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:29:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2005 11:30:43 PM EDT by Marco]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
It depends on your values.

If you value truth above all else then no.

I always found it silly that certain people felt compelled to portray him exclusively as a monster. This is why footage of him being kind to children is not shown, this is why his artwork is not shown (unless it is being criticized as "amatuerish") and this is why someone felt compelled to re edit the 1936 Olympic footage to make it appear as if he sat down in disgust after the Jesse Owens win.

And the reason the above never made sense to me is it isn't that difficult to demonstrate Adolf was NOT a nice person in many ways. Pretty much just have to read his book if you can suffer your way through it.

In fact Mein Kampf is a perfect example. Parts of it are brilliant and intuitive. The rest of it drones on and on and he tells you the same goddamn fucking thing over and over twenty different ways fully convinced he has told you twenty NEW and DIFFERENT ideas. And a good portion of it is simply WRONG. He wasn't the most original thinker, most of the ideas in Mein Kampf were not his and more than a few of them he had a shaky understanding of to begin with.

And again the worst thing about Mein Kampf are the people who feel that it is a genuine threat to society or humanity. If you wanted to stamp out this nonsense once and for all make it required reading. If you think Hitler was truly and enlightened individual read Mein Kampf and watch Triumph of the Will. Both amazed me, not for the brilliant oratory or writing that is generally attributed to him, but for the fact that people of the 20th century actually bought into this crap. Of course people of the same age also thought communism was a brilliant idea that would work so there you go.

If one is going to be honest Hitler was just a man. He had good and bad in him and did both depending upon circumstance and occassion. On one hand he was something of a brilliant statesman who performed the economic miracle of getting Germany out of one of the worst depressions of the 20th Century (something not even FDR could pull off without wartime production). At this stage he was a hero to most Germans and probably did genuinely care about the people and country of Germany. On the other hand when he was losing his ass in 1944-45 he decided he'd rather see it all go down in flames than fail to live up to his vision. Hardly the same Hitler who cared about Germany's best interests.

Also he could care about small children and loved animals. By the same token he could put into place a system that would put children to death for simply being who they were. Quite the contradiction.

Early in his life he was a decorated soldier who must have understood concepts of honor, loyalty and duty. Later he would consign men he suppossedly respected above all others to lost battles they couldn't possibly win by the thousands. So much for values.

Perhaps the worst thing about Adolf Hitler is what he represents. And I don't mean National Socialism or Anti Semetism. The worst thing about Hitler is that he proves a educated person who is seemingly normal and has a brilliant capacity for intellect can become a monster. If Adolf had been something of a Charles Manson type who early on was clearly insane nobody would be surpised by his actions.

And that is why it isn't popular to see Adolf as any kind of normal person, and it is offensive to many to admire any of his qualities.

And to be absolutely fair, if it was your Grandfather who was put into a camp and worked to death for no other reason than the fact that he was of Slavik origin you probably wouldn't want to hear too damn much about Hitler the artist or Hitler the architect either.



This man knows well what he's talking about. I find no disgreement. Hitler was as you've stated a pawn of his time, nothing special.

Fact is, we(USA) created Hitler as a reprocussion of the WW1 treatment of Germany. Let it be known that I am 110% American raised and whats about America!.
Link Posted: 8/13/2005 11:46:15 PM EDT
Hitler was just a man. He was not evil. But, the system he was nominal head of eventually allowed evil things to occur. And I don't mean the Nazi party. ANY society can go amok. And so he is made a scapegoat to ignorance.

People demonize him because they cannot understand that the horrible events that happen in this world stem from human social structures gone awry, not from a random madman. The conditions for tragedy must already exist in potential...and in the human race the potential is certainly always there.

No snowflake thinks it is responsible for the avalanch.

Its just the way things work.

Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:31:03 AM EDT
He was incredible in the way that he took a torn nation and brought it together to completely own half the planet when the military for that country was banned. He was evil, but the only difference between him and a common racist is that he got the means, will, and power to completely fuck the race he hated.

His charisma was extraordinary, but his ideals were fucked. Pineapples up the ass for eternity in hell, for sure.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:40:39 AM EDT
nothing wrong w/ admiring who you wish to admire for the right reasons

and folks have to admit, hitler WAS a great speaker

Link Posted: 8/14/2005 12:59:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 1:14:34 AM EDT by NH_AR_Shooter]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
Hitler was just a man. He was not evil. But, the system he was nominal head of eventually allowed evil things to occur. And I don't mean the Nazi party. ANY society can go amok. And so he is made a scapegoat to ignorance.

People demonize him because they cannot understand that the horrible events that happen in this world stem from human social structures gone awry, not from a random madman. The conditions for tragedy must already exist in potential...and in the human race the potential is certainly always there.

No snowflake thinks it is responsible for the avalanch.

Its just the way things work.




There is so much wrong with your statement that I have to believe you are either very young or ignorant of history, or....well...whatever.

Hitler was no snowflake, and he not only knew he was responsible, but made damn sure he was.

Hitler was evil, he and just a very few others devised the "evil things" that occured.

You make it sound as if he was just going with the flow, overtaken by events not of his making....

If you knew anything about Hitlers rise to power you should know that absolute power at any cost was always his goal. He himself devised or approved everything that happened, after gaining power he put people who shared his vision, his evil design, into power, and no move was made without his consent. He maintained an iron grip on his power, his absolute authority, right up to his death.

Hardly a snowflake helplessly swept along.

Link Posted: 8/14/2005 1:44:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 1:45:29 AM EDT by smokycity]
To borrow a scene from Star Trek (Space Seed)

Spock: Name-- Khan Noonien Singh. From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world, from Asia through the Middle East. The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
Kirk: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one. He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous.
McCoy:They were supermen in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
Spock: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is--
Kirk: Mr. Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us.
Spock: Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
McCoy: There were no massacres under his rule.
Spock: And as little freedom.
Kirk: No wars until he was attacked.
Spock: Gentlemen!
Kirk: Mr. Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
Spock: Illogical.
Kirk: Totally
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 1:47:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 1:47:27 AM EDT by vito113]
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 1:50:16 AM EDT
As Steyr said, there's a tendency to regard him as possessing the epitome of every bad trait in the book. That's obviously false; he was an evil man, but doesn't preclude his being non-evil in certain aspects.

The dictionary says "admire" means "regard (an object, quality, or person) with respect or warm approval ". The distinction here is that you're regarding the quality as admirable, not the person.

To begin with, Hitler was probably a brave soldier; he survived for years in the trenches and was a runner. His speaking style does not translate at all to the modern era; I think he looks more than faintly ridiculous, full of bombast and stagey gestures. But he seemed to keep the Germans of the 20's and 30's hepped up. The German public seemed to have a soft spot for the passionate and angry. Hitler was probably pretty intelligent, but not at all well educated. He dropped out of high school, where he had mediocre marks, and after that was mainly an auto didact. Most people said he had an excellent memory. I think the lack of intellectual discipline resulting from his lack of formal education was very telling during the war. Think of the meandering in Mein Kampf and contrast that with anything Churchill wrote. Churchill is always a model of clarity and precision, and done with style to boot. The same traits carry over to their wartime orders. (Churchill: "Send to me a description no longer than one-half page on why we are doing X for action this day.")
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 2:04:43 AM EDT
I admire some qualities of Hitler, and I admire what he accomplished, but I am revolted by him personally. Evil incarnate is how I see him. But if people want to admire him, that doesnt bother me, as long as its not some 88 bullshit.

On that subject, NEWSFLASH the swastica is not an evil thing. Its about 5K years old. As long as it isnt being used for 88 propaganda, its completely benign. Its actually a very positive symbol. All these mouthbreathers going around trying to start fights with innocent people, are as much a nazi as the nazi's they claim to hate.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 3:49:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2005 3:50:17 AM EDT by Tirador223]
No sense wasting your time waiting for responses on ARFCOM, especially with such an interesting query.

Why don't you take this question down to the local VFW and see what they say? It will save a lot of time and be a lot more vivid than the carefully phrased answers you get here.



Link Posted: 8/14/2005 4:21:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lazer80:
the juice goes nuts on ncaa when u unlock the classic teams...i admire him for rushing 400+ on my dyansty team



For some reason, this post in the midst
of talk about Hitler made me
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