Why Abortion is Moral
Abortion questions answered

By Elroy

http://elroy.net/ehr/abortionanswers.html





6. Is abortion murder?



No. Absolutely not.



It's not murder if it's not an independent person. One might argue, then, that it's not murder to end the life of any child before she reaches consciousness, but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child, so it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being.



Using independence also solves the problem of dealing with premature babies. Although a preemie is obviously still only a potential person, by virtue of its independence from the mother, we give it the full rights of a conscious person. This saves us from setting some other arbitrary date of when we consider a new human being a full person. Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older. Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part. As we've clearly demonstrated, a single-cell zygote is no more a person that a human hair follicle.



But that doesn't stop religious fanatics from dumping their judgements and their anger on top of women who choose to exercise the right to control their bodies. It's the ultimate irony that people who claim to represent a loving God resort to scare tactics and fear to support their mistaken beliefs.



It's even worse when you consider that most women who have an abortion have just made the most difficult decision of their life. No one thinks abortion is a wonderful thing. No one tries to get pregnant just so they can terminate it. Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son. It's hard enough as it is. Women certainly don't need others telling them it's a murder.




It's not. On the contrary, abortion is an absolutely moral choice for any woman wishing to control her body.

Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son

Hmm.

Quoted: Using independence also solves the problem of dealing with premature babies. Although a preemie is obviously still only a potential person, by virtue of its independence from the mother, we give it the full rights of a conscious person. This saves us from setting some other arbitrary date of when we consider a new human being a full person. Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older. Are these the same wonderful cultures that sacrifice virgins to the great and powerful volcano gods?Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part. As we've clearly demonstrated, a single-cell zygote is no more a person that a human hair follicle. Just a potential person. Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son

Sad, really sad.

It is murder and should be punished as such





ibtl

Maybe I shouldn't post my thoughts, but...

The Democrats are busy killing off their future voter base.

 Think about it.

Quoted: Maybe I shouldn't post my thoughts, but... The Democrats are busy killing off their future voter base.  Think about it.

Zing!

Waldo,

They are killing potential Democrat voters.

CRC

Yawn.

Interesting analysis. Sounds like it's morally acceptable to turn any child from birth onwards loose in the woods. If it lives, it was a person. If not, well. . . .

It is murder and they know it. But they try to rationalize it where in their own minds, it isn't so bad. Then they try to convince others to agree with them.

But yet, it's still murder. What else do you call deliberately and intentionally ending a life? Hell, it's premeditated murder!

I am no great fan of abortion but there is a lot to be said about circumstance. Abortion as a last ditch form of birth control certainly isn't a pleasent thing, but sometimes has it's reasons. Personally, I don't feel that abortion is murder, regardless of the circumstances.

I have seen abortion used in a responsible manner by people that have had other forms of contraception fail. In these cases, reasonable means to prevent pregnancy were used and, subsequently, failed. Both parties where in college, and at that point had no marketable skills that could be used to support a child. Rather than attempting to raise a child with insufficient means to do so, the parties involved chose to terminate the pregnancy. Occaisionally, abortion is the only alternative, as attempting to carry a baby to term and deliver would kill the mother. Some people simply do whatever they want, and then use abortion as a solution rather than taking responsibility for their lives. The last option is one that I do not approve of at all. It also seems to be the most common scenario.  

Quoted: Occaisionally, abortion is the only alternative, as attempting to carry a baby to term and deliver would kill the mother.

The problem with this statement is that people lived their lives, and civilization thrived, for centuries before the advent of cheap, legal abortion. If pregnancy did not cause the end of civilization when abortion was illegal, can you ever say that there is a situation in which abortion is the only option?  Certainly, you can say that if your girlfriend has a baby it will keep you from finishing Business School and force you to marry her and accept a lifestyle that falls short of your dreams, but that is hardly the same as "abortion is the only alternative."

I'll buy abortion as "the only alternative" if your choices are (a) dead woman (to a reasonable degree of medical certainty) or (b) abortion. Short of that, you're just playing word games; you're just saying "I don't really care much for the sort of life I'm likely to have if my girlfriend has a baby right now, therefore abortion is the only answer." It's a debatable subject, but it should be debated honestly. "Convenience" and "optimal outcome" are not synonyms for "necessity."

OK to the far right religous conservative, how about a child concieved of rape or incest???  Then is it not murder???  This question is a matter of interpritation of beliefs, and finding your "gray area" or justification.

Quoted: OK to the far right religous conservative, how about a child concieved of rape or incest???  Then is it not murder???  This question is a matter of interpritation of beliefs, and finding your "gray area" or justification.

Can you restate that coherently?

kind of curious.

many don't care about the kids that are alive now. why do you really GAS about those that are aborted?

Chris

Who said it's not murder????

IBTL

Quoted: Why Abortion is Moral Abortion questions answered By Elroy http://elroy.net/ehr/abortionanswers.html Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older. Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part.

Older cultures used to perform human sacrifice.  Older gultures used to put widows out on an ice flow.  Older cultures used to believe that the earth was flat.  Older cultures used to think that you could OWN ANOTHER PERSON.

This guy is wrong.

AGNTSA

Quoted: kind of curious. many don't care about the kids that are alive now. why do you really GAS about those that are aborted? Chris

Many people in the 16 to 39 yo age bracket live shitty, unproductive, dead-end lives, contributing nothing to the commonwealth and receiving nothing of note from it. Should we "GAS" when they are killed?

Quoted: Quoted: kind of curious. many don't care about the kids that are alive now. why do you really GAS about those that are aborted? Chris Many people in the 16 to 39 yo age bracket live shitty, unproductive, dead-end lives, contributing nothing to the commonwealth and receiving nothing of note from it. Should we "GAS" when they are killed?

Chris

Quoted:It's not murder if it's not an independent person. One might argue, then, that it's not murder to end the life of any child before she reaches consciousness, but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child, so it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being.

equally "logical" to use conception

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: kind of curious. many don't care about the kids that are alive now. why do you really GAS about those that are aborted? Chris Many people in the 16 to 39 yo age bracket live shitty, unproductive, dead-end lives, contributing nothing to the commonwealth and receiving nothing of note from it. Should we "GAS" when they are killed? Chris

I couldn't figure that one out either.

If abortion is murder then eating a thick steak is genocide, right? If you have to bring up something supernatural to refute my point then I win.

It's been proven that "faith" is just a chemical in the human brain that some of you have and some of us do not. That's why you can't be talked out of your beliefs. Try talking a crack user out of that lifestyle sometime. Same result. Frankly I don't mind hearing all your bunk about Jesus and all of that. I just tune it out. After a while it just blends into Santa, Lady Luck and all the other superstitions of humanity. Dull dull dull.


Except for abortion. Abortion is when the worst of you get up on your soapbox and tell the rest of us we're evil and then when we ignore you, you try to hurt or kill us in the name of your "faith" in a god that's up in your heads! It's tough to ignore a nutcase in your face. Live and let live is one of yours, right? Where's it say "...except for those we disagree with"? See the irony here? We've put up with your BS for hundreds of years but you come unglued at us when the A-Word is mentioned. Harsh words are issued. Fights break out. Police are called. Guns are used. All for an idea. An idea in your heads. If it wasn't so silly it'd be funny. But I forget, you don't get the joke. Pity.

According to Laci's Law it would be considered murder since under that law if you murder  a woman that is pregnant you can be charged with the death of her unborn child.  How is abortion any different if you are causing the death of an unborn child?

if you dare..............


images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=abortion&spell=1






Sgatr15

Quoted: Why Abortion is Moral Abortion questions answered By Elroy http://elroy.net/ehr/abortionanswers.html 6. Is abortion murder? No. Absolutely not. It's not murder if it's not an independent person. One might argue, then, that it's not murder to end the life of any child before she reaches consciousness, but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child, so it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being. Using independence also solves the problem of dealing with premature babies. Although a preemie is obviously still only a potential person, by virtue of its independence from the mother, we give it the full rights of a conscious person. This saves us from setting some other arbitrary date of when we consider a new human being a full person. Older cultures used to set it at two years of age, or even older. Modern religious cultures want to set it at conception, which is simply wishful thinking on their part. As we've clearly demonstrated, a single-cell zygote is no more a person that a human hair follicle. But that doesn't stop religious fanatics from dumping their judgements and their anger on top of women who choose to exercise the right to control their bodies. It's the ultimate irony that people who claim to represent a loving God resort to scare tactics and fear to support their mistaken beliefs. It's even worse when you consider that most women who have an abortion have just made the most difficult decision of their life. No one thinks abortion is a wonderful thing. No one tries to get pregnant just so they can terminate it. Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son. It's hard enough as it is. Women certainly don't need others telling them it's a murder. It's not. On the contrary, abortion is an absolutely moral choice for any woman wishing to control her body.

I agree with what he says. I also support the death penalty and Im a conservative too.

Just my thoughts...


Abortion=killing what could be someone...It's murder, plain and simple.

You shouldn't make someone else suffer for your stupidity....just my views.

Quoted: if you dare.............. images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=abortion&spell=1 Sgatr15

With all due respect, Sgtar ive seen worse images on rotten.com
 IBTL

The argument is "it's my BODY!" Well, suicide is illegal right?

Zygotes..... fetuses(or is it feti?).... parasites..... "potential" human life.....  it is so much easier to destroy that which is not ourselves.

Barbaric "red men" were so much easier to wipe from the conscious than fellow humans.  Far easier to go to sleep at night enslaving "sub-human" blacks than men deserving equal tratment.  

Future generations WILL looks back upon our embracement of abortion as present generations look back upon past ones that took away one segment of humanity's humanity..... with disgust at their shallow-minded view of human life.

Sperm and eggs are "potential human life" just as brick and mortar is a potential wall.  A human zygote is not some mystery creature that might form a random lifeform.   All reproducing animals are zygotes at some stage of their growth cycle.  An avian zygote produces NOTHING ELSE other than a bird.  A dolphin's zygote never grows into anything other than a dolphin.

I need no god to tell me these things.  My logic can reson these simple facts for themselves.

Quoted: If abortion is murder then eating a thick steak is genocide, right? If you have to bring up something supernatural to refute my point then I win. It's been proven that "faith" is just a chemical in the human brain that some of you have and some of us do not. That's why you can't be talked out of your beliefs. Try talking a crack user out of that lifestyle sometime. Same result. Frankly I don't mind hearing all your bunk about Jesus and all of that. I just tune it out. After a while it just blends into Santa, Lady Luck and all the other superstitions of humanity. Dull dull dull. Except for abortion. Abortion is when the worst of you get up on your soapbox and tell the rest of us we're evil and then when we ignore you, you try to hurt or kill us in the name of your "faith" in a god that's up in your heads! It's tough to ignore a nutcase in your face. Live and let live is one of yours, right? Where's it say "...except for those we disagree with"? See the irony here? We've put up with your BS for hundreds of years but you come unglued at us when the A-Word is mentioned. Harsh words are issued. Fights break out. Police are called. Guns are used. All for an idea. An idea in your heads. If it wasn't so silly it'd be funny. But I forget, you don't get the joke. Pity.

Abortion is not an "idea" it happens every day.
I have never tried to hurt or kill someone who is pro killing unborn babies.
I don't see the irony, no.
The joke is that you are not honest enough to admit that abortion is about killing babies.
The definition of murder is "the unlawful killing of a human being by another with malice aforethought" by definition abortion is not murder because it is legal.  It still is wrong and is a National disgrace.

What abortion is is Homicide, the killing of a human by another.

Quoted: The argument is "it's my BODY!" Well, suicide is illegal right?

only if you fail I would guess.

Chris

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: kind of curious. many don't care about the kids that are alive now. why do you really GAS about those that are aborted? Chris Many people in the 16 to 39 yo age bracket live shitty, unproductive, dead-end lives, contributing nothing to the commonwealth and receiving nothing of note from it. Should we "GAS" when they are killed? Chris I couldn't figure that one out either.

I keep reading it and I don't get it still.

Chris

Quoted: As we've clearly demonstrated, a single-cell zygote is no more a person that a human hair follicle. It's even worse when you consider that most women who have an abortion have just made the most difficult decision of their life. No one thinks abortion is a wonderful thing. No one tries to get pregnant just so they can terminate it. Even though it's not murder, it still eliminates a potential person, a potential daughter, a potential son.

So make up your mind - is it a "hair follicle" or is it a "potential person"???

If the end result of abortion is the "elimination of a potential person", then why is choosing an abortion (which eliminates a "potential person") any more difficult than choosing to wear a condom or choosing to use coitus interruptus - both of which which ALSO eliminate a "potential person"? Aren't two gametes who never join together because of birth control also just as much a "potential person" as a zygote who never gets to grow because of abortion?

And why is choosing to kill a zygote any more "difficult" than plucking a hair from one's head? Why would such a thing like plucking a hair be "the most difficult decision" a woman could ever make in her life?

Maybe... just maybe... the reason that choosing abortion is as this guy says, "the most difficult decision of their life", is because it takes a supreme cognitive effort to deny the obvious - that a zygote is NOT the same as a hair follicle and that abortion is NOT just the killing of a "potential" son or daughter.

It is the killing of a human child in its most helpless and defenseless state.

Any normal woman could never look their newborn child or premature baby in the face and then give the nod to a doctor to crush its skull or push it into a blender. But by virtue of the fetus being hidden in the womb, the mother never sees what she is doing and so has somewhat less instinct to avoid killing her own baby. The death of a faceless concept like a "potential person" or equivocating it with plucking a hair follicle is far more palatable than considering the truth about her act.

Couple that blindess with the incessant barrage of messages from the leftists and feminazis from even early childhood through adolescence and into adulthood that the ULTIMATE pinnacle of womanhood and her very identity as a female is her RIGHT TO PRIVACY and CHOICE. I mean, how could anyone argue that "privacy" and "choice" (and therefore also abortion) are not bedrock principles of freedom!?

Oh, and pay no attention to that kicking fetus being dismembered in your womb - it's your RIGHT to frappe that frantic, kicking, bleeding "hair follicle".

Wrap it up, then you don't have to fix accidents.

Quoted: Wrap it up, then you don't have to fix accidents.

spoken like a future suprised father.

Chris

No, it's not! If it were murder, it would be ilegal. Plain and simple. You and some people may not agree but which ever way you cut it, its still NO.

I keep reading it and I don't get it still. Chris

Since his statement seems to be a bit much for you to grasp.... let me try and simplify.

MANY people live lives that are thoroughly pointless in many's eyes.  Such as most of the victims of the latest tsunami.  Why should we give a shit (or does just calling it GAS make it more palatable to you) about those who we deem worthless.

Quoted: if you dare.............. images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=abortion&spell=1 Sgatr15

Dam! even makes a Pro-Choice guy like me think.

Quoted: Quoted: if you dare.............. images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=abortion&spell=1 Sgatr15 With all due respect, Sgtar ive seen worse images on rotten.com  IBTL

+1 Here too, But Kids are really hard to see.

Not a future father, at least not until I'm out of college and have a stable job and a home of my own w/ my GF(who is on BC)
But still there have been times where we have been worried.......
She is an angry "i'm not gonna be barefoot and pregnant" feminist and thats why I love her.

First of all, anyone in the medical field can prove life can be sustained, [and not only sustained, but thriving] in a preemie far before the 9 mos [40 weeks]due date.
Second, anyone with a brain can go take a course in medical science and medical terminology and see that the person who wrote this article has her head up her ass.
Said person states"

but we don't know how long after birth personhood arrives for each new child, so it's completely logical to use their independence as the dividing line for when full rights are given to a new human being.

WRONG! We in the scientific community have known for quite a few years that independance begins immediatly. Indendance is defined scientifically as the "abillity to use all of one's senses."
Even in the womb during the labor process,the baby is capable of full body function including peeing/pooping etc.,... Some have even ingested it and got sick! And all come out ready to eat! Now if we don't know when independance begins,....why is this child eating, suckling, peeing/pooping. grabbing at fingers put in their small hands, crying, screaming, and respoinding to pain. ALL the sense are working ladies and gentlemen. This IS independance,,..No question about it in scientific terms only.

Another poster mentioned the following....

Occaisionally, abortion is the only alternative, as attempting to carry a baby to term and deliver would kill the mother.

Speaking again, in scientific terms, we know as much about what will happen in the future during delivery, as we do about what will happen in 2010 at 4:55PM. Just why do you think there are so many emergancy C-sections? Trust me, they weren't planned!
My mother was a great example, as was many in the hospital I have met...
Dr says No--too much risk, mother says ok...but I will have this child anyway. Dr says ...you got lucky,...NEVER have another child, you will die...mother says F-you...has ten more[mine-literally],..and still lives at a healthy no pills age of 79!
there is more risk BTW involved with taking pain killers or drinking too much on a daily basis than there is of death during childbirth! and people don't eliminate the meds or the booze!
Science has PROVEN beyond a doubt that babies have ALL their senses functioning long before they are born with the exception of FULL lung development. The only criteria for independance that the said person in orginal article is referring to; is the senses.ie,...the scientific defintion.
So said person has just screwed themselves if they are basing the argument on independance of the child. So this is not a good argument for the right or the left. Just a screwed up one of someone who tried to convince in med terms they themselves do not understand.
I only pity the population that reads and believes without this knowedge. They are being manipulated due to big words and false info.
Joyce

if that's actually the case, why do you GAS about either of them? those you say are living "pointless" lives or the aborted?

how's one more important than the other in your eyes?

BTW: GAS is just easier to type than give a shit.

Chris

Quoted: if you dare.............. images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=abortion&spell=1 Sgatr15

Thanks for the link went a ways back and found this.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       <-----------------------------

Quoted: I am no great fan of abortion but there is a lot to be said about circumstance. Abortion as a last ditch form of birth control certainly isn't a pleasent thing, but sometimes has it's reasons. Personally, I don't feel that abortion is murder, regardless of the circumstances. I have seen abortion used in a responsible manner by people that have had other forms of contraception fail. In these cases, reasonable means to prevent pregnancy were used and, subsequently, failed. Both parties where in college, and at that point had no marketable skills that could be used to support a child. Rather than attempting to raise a child with insufficient means to do so, the parties involved chose to terminate the pregnancy. Occaisionally, abortion is the only alternative, as attempting to carry a baby to term and deliver would kill the mother. Some people simply do whatever they want, and then use abortion as a solution rather than taking responsibility for their lives. The last option is one that I do not approve of at all. It also seems to be the most common scenario.

Point 1. Do you think the child would have cared?

Point 2. That is urban myth. Mothers do not die in childbirth anymore.  It is as common as being struck by lightning.

If a woman is pregnant, and doesn't want to have a child, then give up the child to adoption. A few stretchmarks are a small price to pay for ensuring that your child will live.

It is a child. It is a person. Don't believe that it is just tissue. We were all "just tissue" at one point.

Quoted: Not a future father, at least not until I'm out of college and have a stable job and a home of my own w/ my GF(who is on BC) But still there have been times where we have been worried....... She is an angry "i'm not gonna be barefoot and pregnant" feminist and thats why I love her.

your post sounded as an absolute way to not have to worry about an abortion.

Wrap it up, then you don't have to fix accidents.

sorry if I read it wrong

Chris

Quoted: OK to the far right religous conservative, how about a child concieved of rape or incest???  Then is it not murder???  This question is a matter of interpritation of beliefs, and finding your "gray area" or justification.

How often does this really happen? 1 in a million? What about the other 999,999?

We, my GF and I, would like to avoid having one if at all possible (we both have beter things to spend our hard earned money on) but......

Quoted: If abortion is murder then eating a thick steak is genocide, right? If you have to bring up something supernatural to refute my point then I win. It's been proven that "faith" is just a chemical in the human brain that some of you have and some of us do not. That's why you can't be talked out of your beliefs. Try talking a crack user out of that lifestyle sometime. Same result. Frankly I don't mind hearing all your bunk about Jesus and all of that. I just tune it out. After a while it just blends into Santa, Lady Luck and all the other superstitions of humanity. Dull dull dull. Except for abortion. Abortion is when the worst of you get up on your soapbox and tell the rest of us we're evil and then when we ignore you, you try to hurt or kill us in the name of your "faith" in a god that's up in your heads! It's tough to ignore a nutcase in your face. Live and let live is one of yours, right? Where's it say "...except for those we disagree with"? See the irony here? We've put up with your BS for hundreds of years but you come unglued at us when the A-Word is mentioned. Harsh words are issued. Fights break out. Police are called. Guns are used. All for an idea. An idea in your heads. If it wasn't so silly it'd be funny. But I forget, you don't get the joke. Pity.

I agree. A woman has a right to choose. Before she is carrying another person. She can say no, or take steps to not get pregnant, before she gets pregnant.  If she is pregnant with another person, than she needs to carry that person to term, than she can walk away forever. It is always her choice.