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Posted: 8/26/2004 2:22:34 PM EST
Is it illegal to have an AR pistol with a forward rail?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:32:45 PM EST
Ii has a foward grip it becomes an AOW
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:34:47 PM EST
But what if it has a rail on the bottom where a removable grip could be attached?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:36:31 PM EST
good question
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:38:12 PM EST
Like a rail to attach a light for self defense.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:03:25 PM EST
i would say it should be legal

should, try it and see, lol
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:16:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 3:17:00 PM EST by LoginName]
Just because a forward pistol grip could be attached, why would it be any different than Lugers, Broomhandles (or any other handgun), that has a lug/slot on the grip for attaching a shoulder stock?

I know there were some changes made to the C&R regs regarding posession of those particular firearms when equipped with a shoulder stock, but even before the changes were made they were treated like any other handgun.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:18:00 PM EST
I don't think you can have a shroud on the pistol, which is what the rail would become.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:18:18 PM EST
I dunno what the ATFE would rule. Not that I really care, it was something that just struck me.

"You have the capacity to turn that pistol into an AOW therefore it is an AOW and you are going to the pen."

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:51:34 PM EST
Will this apply after Sept. 14th? What is the legal terms of a forward grip on a AR15 pistol?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 3:56:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
Will this apply after Sept. 14th? What is the legal terms of a forward grip on a AR15 pistol?



SEPT 14 will have no effect. This is an NFA 1934 issue.

After AWB sunset we'll work on 1934 and 1986.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 4:00:02 PM EST
so no pistol can have a forward grip at all? that goes for Glock's to AR's. What about the handguard? I ask this cause this is the first thing I build after the ban due to the fact there is no weight restrictions. Please enlighten me on the facts about a Ar and AK pistol.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:17:11 PM EST
A rail is legal, a grip is not.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:18:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 5:19:36 PM EST by kpel308]
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:20:41 PM EST
But is an AR pistol with a rail capable of accepting a detchable rail a AOW too?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:30:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:45:54 PM EST
Okay even if the foregrip is on a legal rifle (like say an M4gery with rail also)?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:57:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By kpel308:
Constructive possession MAY apply, if you also possess a foregrip at the same location.


How? Go to a gun shop and at least half the pistols in the case have a rail for attaching a light, and many of them (i.e. Glock, Beretta and Kimber) have a rail that is the same spec as an AR and would accept a foregrip with no problems. Wouldn't constructive possession of a current generation Glock and a vertical foregrip also be constructive possession?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:59:55 PM EST
I guess so if you have both a unattached foregrip and a Glock with a rail.

But what if you own a Glock and a M4gery that has a detachable rail on it?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:36:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 6:36:37 PM EST by mpearcex]
what does having a grip attached and having a handguard attached any different? Both are places to place your other hand. Is a handguard a NFA item on a pistol AR?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:56:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 6:57:27 PM EST by Forest]
Foward grip on a pistol - AOW (you'll need some forms and a $200 tax stamp to create it)

Foward grip on a rifle - no problems.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:58:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
what does having a grip attached and having a handguard attached any different? Both are places to place your other hand. Is a handguard a NFA item on a pistol AR?



I'm pretty sure it is.

BUT I am asking about wether putting on a rail capable of accepting a handguard is making it an AOW also.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:03:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
Foward grip on a pistol - AOW (you'll need some forms and a $200 tax stamp to create it)

Foward grip on a rifle - no problems.



if this is the case...good.

if this is not the case.....alot of people posting pics of their AR's with forward grips are in trouble.


my opinion on the matter.....AMD 63\65 kits have forward grips.....as long as you keep up with the parts coun you should be fine...

Final opinin: LEGAL.


but thats just my opinion....then again im just a dumbass college kid that doesnt know any better.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:06:14 PM EST
I know that and the transfer tax is $5.00 NOT 200.

But I was asking if you had a pistol with a picatinny rail on the bottom capable of accepting a vertical handgrip, would that make it an AOW even if I did not own a rail?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:08:24 PM EST
isn't there something saying that their can't be a vertical grip parallel to the existing grip? So if you had a foreward grip that was slightly slanted foreward of rearward, woudl that be legal?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:09:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 7:10:24 PM EST by CRC]

Originally Posted By Wipeout:
isn't there something saying that their can't be a vertical grip parallel to the existing grip? So if you had a foreward grip that was slightly slanted foreward of rearward, woudl that be legal?





I have seen a grip that is slanted in with finger grooves.

CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:10:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 7:15:42 PM EST by KA3B]
You can have a forward handgrip.


US Code

(29)
The term ''handgun'' means -

(A)
a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and

(B)
any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

(30)
The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -

A)
<snip>

<snip>
C)
a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

(i)
an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

(ii)
a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

(iii)
a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;

(iv)
a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and

(v)
a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;



Code of Federal Regulations

Any other weapon.
Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or
weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.


Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Regional director (compliance). The principal ATF regional official responsible for administering regulations in this part.

Revolver.
A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next
cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:11:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wipeout:
isn't there something saying that their can't be a vertical grip parallel to the existing grip? So if you had a foreward grip that was slightly slanted foreward of rearward, woudl that be legal?



it would make sense..

i have never seen two parallel grips before.

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:14:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 7:19:53 PM EST by CRC]
Any other weapon.
Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or
weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
....

Hmmm.... so a rifle bored pistol can have a forward grip.



CRC
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:16:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 7:17:44 PM EST by CRC]
x
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:20:24 PM EST
BTT
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:13:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:22:00 PM EST by mpearcex]
OK what I want to know is will this be legal to own, not with a AOW stamp, after the ban.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:18:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:20:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 8:22:44 PM EST by Hoplophile]

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
OK what I want to know is will this be legal to own, not with a AOW stamp.
www.model1sales.com/images/pistol7pre.gif


Edited: I misread the question. Yes, it will be legal to own once the AWB goes away.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:25:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
Any other weapon.
Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or
weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
....

Hmmm.... so a rifle bored pistol can have a forward grip.

No, it can't. If it isn't designed to be fired from -one- hand then it isn't a pistol.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:26:15 PM EST
Yes I am aware I need to wait till the ban ends and purchase a lower receiver as a pistol receiver but my concerns were the legality of it in the configuration shown in the pic. I have no intentions of putting a forward grip on it. I may want to install a light/lazor butit may be best to find an alternative way to mount it.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:39:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
I know that and the transfer tax is $5.00 NOT 200.

But I was asking if you had a pistol with a picatinny rail on the bottom capable of accepting a vertical handgrip, would that make it an AOW even if I did not own a rail?

CRC



you are partially correct. the transfer tax is only $5. HOWEVER by putting the forward grip on it you would be MANUFACTURING an AOW. to manufacture an AOW there is a $200 tax.

i think
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:48:11 PM EST
This is too confusing
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:53:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 11:54:27 PM EST by Troy]
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:29:36 AM EST
What if the forward grip was attached directly to the barrel and not to a "shroud which fully or partially surround the barrel?"


Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:38:56 AM EST
But what if I had the rail only and no grip.

Could a ATFE agent bust me for having an AOW when it would be easy to attach a grip to it EVEN THOUGH I OWN NO SUCH GRIP?

CRC
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:08:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:40:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 7:41:29 AM EST by Forest]
Originally Posted By CRC:
I know that and the transfer tax is $5.00 NOT 200.


That is the TRANSFER tax. To CREATE it (first put the grip on the pistol) the cost is $200

When you sell it the next person only has to pay $5 for the tax.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:03:06 AM EST
ARs, AMD65s, ect. are rifles...as long as they have a 16" barrel, it does not matter.
An AR pistol has to comply with the specs to be called a pistol (weight, ect).

An AR pistol is not allowed to have a grip (AFAIK)...It would then be classified as a SBR, or AOW.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:09:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
After the AWB expires, you can legally build an AR pistol using standard AR handguards (plastic, aluminum, carbon fiber, railed, non-railed, etc.). For example, this AR pistol would be totally LEGAL:





You will NOT be able to add a vertical forward grip, because a vertical forward grip turns a pistol into an AOW. This is an NFA distinction, not an AWB distinction, and will still be with us after 9/13.

-Troy



Would that gun meet the weight requirement to be called a pistol?

Does it have to meet the weight limit loaded, and with whatever optics, or rear sight you wanted to mount on it.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:25:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By madmedic:

Originally Posted By Troy:
After the AWB expires, you can legally build an AR pistol using standard AR handguards (plastic, aluminum, carbon fiber, railed, non-railed, etc.). For example, this AR pistol would be totally LEGAL:

img43.exs.cx/img43/1247/pistol7pre.gif



You will NOT be able to add a vertical forward grip, because a vertical forward grip turns a pistol into an AOW. This is an NFA distinction, not an AWB distinction, and will still be with us after 9/13.

-Troy



Would that gun meet the weight requirement to be called a pistol?

Does it have to meet the weight limit loaded, and with whatever optics, or rear sight you wanted to mount on it.



The weight requirement goes away with the AWB.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:30:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By lu380:

Originally Posted By madmedic:

Originally Posted By Troy:
After the AWB expires, you can legally build an AR pistol using standard AR handguards (plastic, aluminum, carbon fiber, railed, non-railed, etc.). For example, this AR pistol would be totally LEGAL:

img43.exs.cx/img43/1247/pistol7pre.gif



You will NOT be able to add a vertical forward grip, because a vertical forward grip turns a pistol into an AOW. This is an NFA distinction, not an AWB distinction, and will still be with us after 9/13.

-Troy



Would that gun meet the weight requirement to be called a pistol?

Does it have to meet the weight limit loaded, and with whatever optics, or rear sight you wanted to mount on it.



The weight requirement goes away with the AWB.



I see...thats good to know.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:44:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 8:45:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By madmedic:

Originally Posted By lu380:

Originally Posted By madmedic:

Originally Posted By Troy:
After the AWB expires, you can legally build an AR pistol using standard AR handguards (plastic, aluminum, carbon fiber, railed, non-railed, etc.). For example, this AR pistol would be totally LEGAL:

img43.exs.cx/img43/1247/pistol7pre.gif



You will NOT be able to add a vertical forward grip, because a vertical forward grip turns a pistol into an AOW. This is an NFA distinction, not an AWB distinction, and will still be with us after 9/13.

-Troy



Would that gun meet the weight requirement to be called a pistol?

Does it have to meet the weight limit loaded, and with whatever optics, or rear sight you wanted to mount on it.



The weight requirement goes away with the AWB.



I see...thats good to know.



Don't take my word for it, check for yourself. I'm 99.999% sure the weight requirement is part of the AWB.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 10:50:21 AM EST
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