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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/13/2004 5:38:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 10:15:51 AM EST by Quarterbore]
I know this sounds like a stupid question but it really does matter!

In the case of imported guns we are limited to building a semitautomatic rifle or shotgun to weapons that have no more then 10-imported parts. Note that this law dies not apply to pistols!

More info: quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30

So anyways, I am building a pair of AMD-65 pistols... Given these are pistols I am not using any compliance parts. What I am wondering is, if I build one as a pistol and then test fire it it would then be a pistol... If I were to then later add a stock and pin on an extended flash it could then be configured as a rifle.... The receiver is still a pistol as a pistol can be configured as a rifle but......

Would this pistol configured as a rifle still be a pistol? If so, then I am assuming I would still not need any US Compliance parts....
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:42:52 AM EST
I'm not sure about the legality of putting a stock or forward grip on a pistol; I think either puts it in AOW territory...

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:46:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 5:59:05 AM EST by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
I'm not sure about the legality of putting a stock or forward grip on a pistol; I think either puts it in AOW territory...




The T/C Contender is the same thing.... Take a T/C Contender pistol add a stock and a > 16-inch barrel and it is a rifle... you can later reverse the process and convert back to a pistol as it is a pistol.... That is why I use it as the standard to compare to this case...

And... if a pistol is always a pistol I have a bunch of AMD-65 compliance pats I don't need now... perhaps I need another kit to build as a rifle
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 5:47:36 AM EST
Once a pistol, always a pistol.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:32:14 AM EST
As long as you add a 16+" barrel with that buttstock you are good to go. But if you add a buttstock to the AMD's 12.5" barrel you get instant SBR.

If you build a pistol using an AMD kit you can NOT use the original fore end as it has a "pistol" grip forend which presents a grip at an "angle" to the boreline, this constitutes an AOW. Forward grips must be approximately parallel to the bore.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:45:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 7:48:26 AM EST by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By bgenlvtex:
As long as you add a 16+" barrel with that buttstock you are good to go. But if you add a buttstock to the AMD's 12.5" barrel you get instant SBR.

If you build a pistol using an AMD kit you can NOT use the original fore end as it has a "pistol" grip forend which presents a grip at an "angle" to the boreline, this constitutes an AOW. Forward grips must be approximately parallel to the bore.



Agreed....

Pistol Info www.quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32
AOW issues www.quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31

Note: AOW law is one that I would love to see get challanged as there is case law to show that that the ATF OPPINION as you describe is not going to stand up in a court of law... I just want to do it in the correct way if I do challange it by registering a pistol as an AOW and the take the BATFE to court for a tax refund for an unnecessary tax payment!

For my AMD-65 pistol build I just removed the bottom grip and the metal lug it mounts to... It leaves a square hole and a slight "v" fold but it works until I can fabricate something else....

Now, with the question above, would a pistol, built as a rifle with a rifle stock and > 16-inch barrel become an AOW when it has a forward grip added? Do you see how strange this can become yet?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:48:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 7:50:15 AM EST by Dave_A]
When configured as a pistol it is a pistol...

When configured as a rifle it is a rifle...

It is legal to convert a pistol to a rifle so long as it complies with the NFA while in rifle form.

It is then legal to return it to pistol form, so long as you remove the stock & any VFGs....

The legal definition of 'pistol' is just slightly different than 'rifle', and allows conversion 'up' to a rifle and back....

Examples include the Mech-tech 'Carbine' units for 1911's, Glocks & Beretta 92s, and the various T/C models...

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:52:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
When configured as a pistol it is a pistol...

When configured as a rifle it is a rifle...

It is legal to convert a pistol to a rifle so long as it complies with the NFA while in rifle form.

It is then legal to return it to pistol form, so long as you remove the stock & any VFGs....

The legal definition of 'pistol' is just slightly different than 'rifle', and allows conversion 'up' to a rifle and back....

Examples include the Mech-tech 'Carbine' units for 1911's, Glocks & Beretta 92s, and the various T/C models...




So, do you think 922(r) applies when configured as a rifle...? (I don't at this time)
So, do you think a forward grip is allowed when configured as a rifle? (I don't at this time)
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:58:58 AM EST
Ok I have 6 AR stripped lowers and I want to make a pistol out of one of them what are the legalities?
As long as they were sold stripped I can build what right?
Thanks FREE
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:03:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By FREEFALLE6:
Ok I have 6 AR stripped lowers and I want to make a pistol out of one of them what are the legalities?
As long as they were sold stripped I can build what right?
Thanks FREE



Pistol Info www.quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32
AOW issues www.quarterbore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:29:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Now, with the question above, would a pistol, built as a rifle with a rifle stock and > 16-inch barrel become an AOW when it has a forward grip added? Do you see how strange this can become yet?



No. With a rifle stock and a greater than 16" barrel it becomes a leagally configured rifle. Under 16" barrel it becomes SBR. No buttstock and ANY length barrel it becomes pistol.No buttstock and any length barrel with forward pistol grip it becomes AOW.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:31:58 AM EST
thanks
FREE
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:34:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 8:34:40 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
When configured as a pistol it is a pistol...

When configured as a rifle it is a rifle...

It is legal to convert a pistol to a rifle so long as it complies with the NFA while in rifle form.

It is then legal to return it to pistol form, so long as you remove the stock & any VFGs....

The legal definition of 'pistol' is just slightly different than 'rifle', and allows conversion 'up' to a rifle and back....

Examples include the Mech-tech 'Carbine' units for 1911's, Glocks & Beretta 92s, and the various T/C models...




So, do you think 922(r) applies when configured as a rifle...? (I don't at this time) 922(r) -> import parts count DOES apply. You can remove as many parts as you want, just don't replace any US parts with foreign ones when you re-attach

So, do you think a forward grip is allowed when configured as a rifle? (I don't at this time) Yes, it is legit

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 8:36:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
So, do you think 922(r) applies when configured as a rifle...? (I don't at this time)



Yes if configured as a rifle it must be 922(r) compliant with 10 U.S. made parts, which is not much of an issue with AR based rifles. AMD's ,Krinks would be an issue.

I will build a Krink when I get done with the OA93, but will not have a rear trunion designed to accomodate a buttstock.
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 9:10:48 AM EST
I think you guys have me convinced... I am guessing that the law world define a PISTOL configured as a RIFLE as being a rifle as the weapon in that configuration would have the characteristics to meet the definition of the rifle. i have the necessary US Compliance parts so it ie easy for me to add the parts to my AMD-65 pistol when I configure her as a rifle and pin/weld the extended Muzzle Brake on! I also like the thought of being able to have the front grip as well....

I wonder if this is worth a letter to the Tech Branch... this is still a grey area but I am gussing you guys are correct now that I think about it more...
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:05:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
I think you guys have me convinced... I am guessing that the law world define a PISTOL configured as a RIFLE as being a rifle as the weapon in that configuration would have the characteristics to meet the definition of the rifle. i have the necessary US Compliance parts so it ie easy for me to add the parts to my AMD-65 pistol when I configure her as a rifle and pin/weld the extended Muzzle Brake on! I also like the thought of being able to have the front grip as well....

I wonder if this is worth a letter to the Tech Branch... this is still a grey area but I am gussing you guys are correct now that I think about it more...



If you pin/weld the brake on it is moot, as at 16" it stays a rifle no matter what...

The real question for ATF is does a screw on bbl extension & attachable stock make a 'conversion kit', or is it a SBR?
Link Posted: 9/13/2004 10:10:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2004 10:13:28 AM EST by Quarterbore]

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

If you pin/weld the brake on it is moot, as at 16" it stays a rifle no matter what...

The real question for ATF is does a screw on bbl extension & attachable stock make a 'conversion kit', or is it a SBR?



Except I am doing a screw build... I have more options as long as my front trunion is replaceable

I assume that a removable barrel extension with a stock would fall into NFA SBR class...
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