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Posted: 10/7/2004 9:55:03 AM EST
Buying a BM 16" M4A3 profile with all the evil features. Is this too much to pay? Rifle is brand new. Yes, I could build my own, but am going this route. Maybe next time I'll build one.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:56:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:56:55 AM EST
If it's a good price for you....
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:57:18 AM EST
He said A3, so unless it is posted incorrectly, it should be removable.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:58:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
fixed handle or removable?



Removable
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:58:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 9:58:58 AM EST by R-32]
Can you find it for a better price anywhere else?

­
Dont you hate it when people answr your question with a question?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:59:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
If it's a good price for you....



That's what I'm asking. What's a fair price? The dealer I'm buying it through is a small town guy and really nice. I think he should get a profit on it since he's working to get it for me, but how much is too much for that particular rifle?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:59:55 AM EST
I was quoted about $750-$800 at Sportsman's Warehouse for that exact setup. Ended up paying $850 at a shop where I liked the people better.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:03:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By redleg13a:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
If it's a good price for you....



That's what I'm asking. What's a fair price? The dealer I'm buying it through is a small town guy and really nice. I think he should get a profit on it since he's working to get it for me, but how much is too much for that particular rifle?



To me personally, anything over $800 seems somewhat high (especially once you add in sales tax), but if you don't mind supporting a local shop, then I guess it's not outrageous or anything. Plus, if I want a gun RIGHT NOW, I'm willing to pay a bit of a premium not to have to wait to get it shipped from, say Quantico Arms, and have to go pick it up from my local FFL, etc.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:09:14 AM EST
AIM Surplus is getting $809.95 for the Bushy M4A3. Adding transfer and shipping charges, would put you around the $850-$860 mark, so I think you are pretty close with the price. AIM says about 2-3 weeks for delivery, so if your dealer has one in hand, I would say, go for it.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:12:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 10:20:08 AM EST by Red_Label]
I paid $900 for my Bushy XM15-E2S 20" A2 from my local dealer two years ago. Not a great buy. But the gun is worth every penny. I don't lose too much sleep about overpaying by $100. That was the price and he was the only guy who had it locally. Your price seems plenty fair to me. Some people will go to great lengths to save a dime. I don't have that much time. Get the gun and enjoy it.

Edited for spelling.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:16:17 AM EST
The only dealer in my town sells at Manf. Sugguested Retail. What is that...about $1050 for that rifle?

So around here $860 is a streal.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:18:31 AM EST
A2 M4 (postban config) is $760ish at Academy Sports.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:19:16 AM EST
Going price to me
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:22:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:29:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:31:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:32:06 AM EST
Thanks guys. I feel good about this one. I will build my next one, however. This will be my first carbine, so I don't have any experience with them.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:34:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 10:35:10 AM EST by MT_Pockets]
Amen, SteyrAUG.

MT
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:35:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price.



And what would be the retail price of that rifle on the Bushmaster website? I bet they are the same.

Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail.




I know where this guy's coming from. The dealers that act like MSRP is barely 10% above cost are full of it. I dunno what the markup on firearms is, but in the music biz it is as much as 50%. I would suspect guns to be at least 20-30%. You tell us what the average dealer markup is (and don't tell me it's 15% either ).
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:37:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail.



He's right. I'd say the $850 is fair. Take care of your FFL and he'll take care of you. That's a fair price.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:46:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:50:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 10:51:20 AM EST by Red_Label]

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price.



And what would be the retail price of that rifle on the Bushmaster website? I bet they are the same.

Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail.



I never called him a crook, I think that it is a bit of a rip-off, but that is only my opinion. I refuse to pay retail on lots of things, I also don't mind haggling, I have never paid sticker price on a car, do you? My gripe with that dealer is that he is completely unwilling to discount a penny below MSRP, even though me and him both know that he is asking more than that rifle should sell for in this area. There are probably people who will buy it at that price, but he is screwing himself, instead of having his nut tied up in that one rifle for months he could sell at a lower margin and generate a lot more sales over the same time period that that rifle collects dust on his wall, he is holding out for a couple of hundred bucks, when he could move merchnadise and make a hundred bucks on rifles he sells once a month, but instead he is going to make a $200 hundred dollar profit on a rifle his money has been tied up in for three months.



+1

There are many stores in my rural area that try this stuff. I call one of them the "museum". They never sell any guitars. They DUST them a lot. On the other hand, my friend's store has a lot of turn-over. He says he's not in the business to dust old crap and be a housekeeper.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 10:51:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price.



And what would be the retail price of that rifle on the Bushmaster website? I bet they are the same.

Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail.




Ever paid MSRP for a car?
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:11:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:14:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Lightning_P38:
I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price.



And what would be the retail price of that rifle on the Bushmaster website? I bet they are the same.

Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail.




I know where this guy's coming from. The dealers that act like MSRP is barely 10% above cost are full of it. I dunno what the markup on firearms is, but in the music biz it is as much as 50%. I would suspect guns to be at least 20-30%. You tell us what the average dealer markup is (and don't tell me it's 15% either ).



Well MSRP is about 20-30% but actual markup (the price one can actually get) is more like 10%.



And out of that you pay shipping and other charges, right? Seems like most of the money an FFL would make is in the ammunition and accessories department.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:19:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:25:51 AM EST
let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:27:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Now as a consumer you can buy it or not buy it, that is YOUR decision. But you shouldn't tell any business owner what is fair to charge.



Those two statements contradict each other. I tell a business what is a fair price by whether or not I choose to patronize them.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:27:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


2. A car is the usual RIDICULOUS provided example. On a $40-50,000 car 10% is a HUGE PROFIT. One a $400 rifle it is $40.00.




I'm not getting into the argument of what is "fair" for a business owner to charge. Businesses SHOULD charge whatever the market can bear, and there's no such thing as "fairness" in the free market. I've got no beef with that, and you'll never hear me complaining about someone's prices. I got legs - if I don't like it I'll go elsewhere.


But - the car example is eminently salient - there's nothing ridiculous about it.

It's not a question of HOW MUCH the profit margin might be - it's a question of whether there are other industries out there where the manufacturing company posts a "formal" MSRP, but none of the stocking dealers actually charge the consumer that.

A regular consumer doesn't buy the car directly from Ford, just like the regular gun-owner doesn't buy a rifle directly from Bushmaster.

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:28:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:30:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:32:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price.



The $860 price mentioned is for a brand new rifle.



and?
isn't bushies msrp like 1100 for a new a3? i've seen new rifles for as low as 800 usd and as high as over 925 usd. 860 usd is a decent (not great, not shitty) price.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:33:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:34:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:34:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price.



The $860 price mentioned is for a brand new rifle.



and?
isn't bushies msrp like 1100 for a new a3? i've seen new rifles for as low as 800 usd and as high as over 925 usd. 860 usd is a decent (not great, not shitty) price.



My error, I though you said used, not usd.



all good.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:34:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

There are many stores in my rural area that try this stuff. I call one of them the "museum". They never sell any guitars. They DUST them a lot. On the other hand, my friend's store has a lot of turn-over. He says he's not in the business to dust old crap and be a housekeeper.



The local gun dealer I use only charges $10 over his cost - even lets you browse his vendor catalogs. Or if you're doing a transfer, he only charges $10 for that.

I'm a CPA, and work with a lot of businesses, and was wondering how he made a profit at those rates. He then held up a 3-inch stack of 4473's - and said that was last week's sales. In the meantime, another local dealer went out of business this week with a lot of dusty inventory....the one who charged $1500 for SAR-8s, $1100 for ARs, etc.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:36:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Now as a consumer you can buy it or not buy it, that is YOUR decision. But you shouldn't tell any business owner what is fair to charge.



Those two statements contradict each other. I tell a business what is a fair price by whether or not I choose to patronize them.



There is a HUGE difference between not paying a price and telling a dealer he is overpriced.

For example I might think you are an overpaid moron (not you specifically just an example) but that isn't the same as TELLING you you are an overpaid moron.

A dealer charges what he needs to operate a business. There is no contradiction. There is only right and wrong.




More apples and oranges. Me telling a dealer that I think he is overpriced is NOT the same as me telling a dealer that he is an overpriced "moron". One is personal, the other is a statement of opinion that might be more communicative to the dealer than simply not buying his products and him never knowing it. We have plenty of business people in my state who think what they sell is gold and that if they don't sell it at their ridiculous prices, there's just no market for it at the time. I personally don't bother telling dealers they are overpriced -- not my way. I just walk out with my cash. But someone doing it in a non-insulting way is not an asshat in my book. There are as many asshat businessmen as there are customers.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:37:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:39:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:40:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:


1. I didn't say you specifically called the guy a crook.

2. A car is the usual RIDICULOUS provided example. On a $40-50,000 car 10% is a HUGE PROFIT. One a $400 rifle it is $40.00.

3. As far as being unwilling to compromise prices, how much of a cut in pay are YOU willing to take? Do you own your own business? Would you let your boss tell you he is reducing your pay by .50 cents an hour without bitching?

4. Guns are NOT bread, everyone doesn't need one and daily sales are not constant. In a small gun shop a dealer may only make one sale a day. And in light of that $200 in profit really isn't shit. And I know you are gonna say sell cheap in volume, but guess what? Never happens. If the dealer lowered his prices $50 per rifle he wouldn't sell any more guns than he already is, he will simply lower price expectations and profits.

Every new FFL thinks he is gonna undercut everyone and own the entire market. Problem is there are 5,000 other FFLs with the same idea. They end up fighting over the small market and competing for bread crumbs. Bottom feeder guns stores are the first to go under unless they are also a pawn shop or something that generates revenue. Bottom line is if a dealer wants to stay in business (and do things like pay his bills and eat) he has to try and make money. Bills don't pay themselves.

I wish some of you guys would run your own business for at least a year for perspective. You would be a lot less inclined to tell a dealer what he should be charging. Now as a consumer you can buy it or not buy it, that is YOUR decision. But you shouldn't tell any business owner what is fair to charge.




Ah! A refreshing breath of TRUTH.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:41:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:43:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Prefect:

Originally Posted By Red_Label:

There are many stores in my rural area that try this stuff. I call one of them the "museum". They never sell any guitars. They DUST them a lot. On the other hand, my friend's store has a lot of turn-over. He says he's not in the business to dust old crap and be a housekeeper.



The local gun dealer I use only charges $10 over his cost - even lets you browse his vendor catalogs. Or if you're doing a transfer, he only charges $10 for that.

I'm a CPA, and work with a lot of businesses, and was wondering how he made a profit at those rates. He then held up a 3-inch stack of 4473's - and said that was last week's sales. In the meantime, another local dealer went out of business this week with a lot of dusty inventory....the one who charged $1500 for SAR-8s, $1100 for ARs, etc.




Oh come on! $10 doesn't even pay for his time to fill out the paper work.

SteyAug is right - guns are a fairly INELASTIC market. Lower prices don't equal increased sales, for the most part.

Face it - if that Kimber 1911 is $900 or $990, I'm still going to buy it and I'm still only going to buy one at a time.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:44:15 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:45:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 11:48:25 AM EST by Lightning_P38]
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:45:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:45:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price.



You're kind of cutting it close with those comments. Especially when conversing WITH a firearms dealer.




give me a break. also, i never said anything about steyr. in fact, he seems like an excellent dealer.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:46:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By Sierra_Hombre:
let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price.



You're kind of cutting it close with those comments. Especially when conversing WITH a firearms dealer.





If I took everything said about gun dealers on this forum personally I'd have flipped out years ago.

I can only try and offer perspective.



True. However, I just warned two people the other day who insulted / attacked S_H and he turns around and dishes right back out.




WTF?!
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:50:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:55:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 11:56:56 AM EST
Just to answer the original question, I could buy that rifle for 700 out the door.
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