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Posted: 3/10/2005 8:45:36 AM EST
It's all in the title.

Question is NOT about FMJ ball ammo in general. I am asking specifically about .45ACP.

Question is based on the following trade-off: you can shoot ball ammo all day with absolutely no concerns about reliability; or you can shoot hollow points and have the nagging fear that it'll jam. Even if your pistol is 99.99% reliable with HP's, why risk it if ball will do the job?

So, why not just use .45ACP ball for personal defense?
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:47:31 AM EST
45 ball ammo = 9mm hollowpoints

I choose the small, lighter, higher capacity, 9mm with hollowpoints
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:47:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2005 8:48:26 AM EST by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:47:47 AM EST
The way I see it, I would risk having my pistol work 99.9% of the time and have a .70 caliber hole in the POS than 100% with a .45 caliber hole in them. Seems very unlikely it would jam.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:48:28 AM EST
Yes.

The military used them to great effect for a while. Just use 230 grain.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:48:43 AM EST
There's a lot of good hollow point rounds for the .45 that are shaped like the hardball ammo...
Remington Golden Sabre's come to mind...
I've also shot a bunch of Corbon's through my Springfield without any problems... They are damn near square as a wadcutter...
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:48:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Have you tried the Ammo Oracle??

Only for questions about 5.56mm NATO, M183 vs. M855, etc.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:48:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:49:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2005 8:50:09 AM EST by garandman]
Ball ammo has VERY little expansion.

When it comes to ventilating BG's, expansion is a good thing.

I've read a few studies where 45 ball ammo has less stopping efficiency than most all PD 9mm.

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:49:56 AM EST
Any pistol I carry for defense is 100% reliable with the JHP ammo I shoot through it. Otherwise I don't carry it.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:50:12 AM EST
Tag

My take? It's better than spitballs. .45 ACP hardball has put a lot of bad guys out of the fight though... Nothing to sneeze at, yet there are much better loads out there.

That said... my SHTF stock is hardball until they make a cost effective JHP that I can stockpile.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:50:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Ball ammo has VERY little expansion.

When it comes to ventilating BG's, expansion is a good thing.

I've read a few studies where 45 ball ammo has less stopping efficiency than most all PD 9mm.




Please enlighten us, and forgive me if I don't believe it. (the studies, not you)
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:51:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Have you tried the Ammo Forum??

HA! You edited it! No, Ammo Forum is in the AR15 BB, and I regard this as a general question. Besides, there's more traffic here.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:51:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Any pistol I carry for defense is 100% reliable with the JHP ammo I shoot through it. Otherwise I don't carry it.



+1
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:51:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Dear God!



+1.


Pass the Gold Dots/ranger-t's, please.

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:53:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Dear God!

C'mon, is this so unreasonable a question? I know there are lots of "flying ashtray" rounds out there for .45. But what good is "stopping power" when the gun is jammed?
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:55:02 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:55:22 AM EST
Its better than a knife.....


Seriously though there are better choices....why people use this is beyond me.....45acp FMJ does not equal 9mm JHP...9mm loads perform better.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:55:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
Yes.

The military used them to great effect for a while. Just use 230 grain.



Agreed. Just ask all the WW1,WW2,Korea,Vietnam and other vets who used it and it worked for them. (I am NOT saying the .45acp Is the end all be all of pistol calibers or starting up the old caliber debate ) IF I was worried that the ammo in my carry weapon might become an issue --or in a civil suit after and incident, might blow hollow points out of proportion (Dum-Dums, expanding exploding bullets etc) I would stick with ball ammo. My personal prefrence is carry the biggest damm stick you can but you do have to temper that with some real world pessimissim.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:56:41 AM EST
You should stock your handgun with the ammo you're most accurate with first, the stoutest that you're confident with second, and the slickest über-tactical bullet design pop-marketing has created last.

If you're 100% satisfied with your choice of ball in terms of accuracy, control, and reliability - then there's time to work on other areas of your self-defense plan.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:57:10 AM EST
I carry .45 ball sometimes. Hollowpoints (Gold Dots) most of the time.

I don't worry much about it, to be honest.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:57:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Dear God!

C'mon, is this so unreasonable a question? I know there are lots of "flying ashtray" rounds out there for .45. But what good is "stopping power" when the gun is jammed?



It's not an unreasonable question- but your choice of shootin' iron should feed most JHPs just as good as ball or else it's not a good gun*. Because many, if not most, modern JHPs have a good profile that should feed just fine.

*Find a good JHP that feeds in your gun is what I mean, not trashing your choice of gun. It might take a bit of looking, but you should find something.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 8:59:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Any pistol I carry for defense is 100% reliable with the JHP ammo I shoot through it. Otherwise I don't carry it.

That wasn't the question.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:00:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Any pistol I carry for defense is 100% reliable with the JHP ammo I shoot through it. Otherwise I don't carry it.

That wasn't the question.



But it is the premise for the question: that a semiauto 45 can't be trusted to feed JHPs 100% of the time. I disagree with the premise. However, if it makes you sleep better, carry FMJs.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:02:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2005 9:03:26 AM EST by garandman]

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

by g'man:
I've read a few studies where 45 ball ammo has less stopping efficiency than most all PD 9mm.




Please enlighten us, and forgive me if I don't believe it. (the studies, not you)



I don't have the article, but it was published in a major gun rag, and drew stats from police shootings of actual BG's.

One or two other articles cited the same type of data, using teh explanation IIRC that since ball doesn't expand and 45 ball has so much mass behind it, it goes thru the BG, and much of its energy is lost somewhere behind the target.

9mmPD ammo STOPS inside the BG, and thus more stopping energy is expended on the BG than in 45 ball which passed right thru the BG.

THe actual stats along with that explanation seemed pretty convincing to me

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:03:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Have you tried the Ammo Oracle??

Only for questions about 5.56mm NATO, M183 vs. M855, etc.



Yes, you're too quick--I changed it quickly, as my hands typed faster than my mind works.



Oh no! TBK spouts off at the fingers.


As I was once told; the .45 starts out at a diameter the others WANT to expand to.

But there are still better rounds than .45 FMJ. Like a good .45 hollowpoint.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:04:45 AM EST
As an aside, what pistol are you carrying that is 100% reliable with ball, but only 99.99% with good FMJ's?

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:05:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

by g'man:
I've read a few studies where 45 ball ammo has less stopping efficiency than most all PD 9mm.




Please enlighten us, and forgive me if I don't believe it. (the studies, not you)



I don't have the article, but it was published in a major gun rag, and drew stats from police shootings of actual BG's.

One or two other articles cited the same type of data, using teh explanation IIRC that since ball doesn't expand and 45 ball has so much mass behind it, it goes thru the BG, and much of its energy is lost somewhere behind the target.

9mmPD ammo STOPS inside the BG, and thus more stopping energy is expended on the BG than in 45 ball which passed right thru the BG.

THe actual stats along with that explanation seemed pretty convincing to me




So you're saying that 45 ACP ball isn't as good a stopper as 9mm hollowpoints?

If so... isn't that kind of obvious?
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:06:02 AM EST
I'd carry FMJ since a) thats what I shoot all the time = more practice = more accurate, and b) there's one in the chamber, and 7 more in the magazine. If 8 rounds won't get the job done, its time to bug-the-fuck-out.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:06:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Any pistol I carry for defense is 100% reliable with the JHP ammo I shoot through it. Otherwise I don't carry it.

That wasn't the question.

But it is the premise for the question: that a semiauto 45 can't be trusted to feed JHPs 100% of the time. I disagree with the premise. However, if it makes you sleep better, carry FMJs.

And that's a fair reply! You are right, and it's reasonable to expect that one should try and tune a defensive pistol to feed HP's. My reason for asking is the round itself. I know for a fact that 9mm ball is completely unacceptible for self defense (and it's the main reason people don't trust 9x19.) But .45 ACP ball has a lot going for it, huge frontal area, lots of weight. I just wanted to know what folks out there think. Doesn't hurt to ask, does it?
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:07:17 AM EST
Would YOU want to be shot with a .45ACP ball round?
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:07:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Any pistol I carry for defense is 100% reliable with the JHP ammo I shoot through it. Otherwise I don't carry it.

That wasn't the question.

But it is the premise for the question: that a semiauto 45 can't be trusted to feed JHPs 100% of the time. I disagree with the premise. However, if it makes you sleep better, carry FMJs.

And that's a fair reply! You are right, and it's reasonable to expect that one should try and tune a defensive pistol to feed HP's. My reason for asking is the round itself. I know for a fact that 9mm ball is completely unacceptible for self defense (and it's the main reason people don't trust 9x19.) But .45 ACP ball has a lot going for it, huge frontal area, lots of weight. I just wanted to know what folks out there think. Doesn't hurt to ask, does it?



I have never had to tune a 45 to make it feed at least most brands of JHP reliably. But given the choice between 9mm ball and 45 ball, I would pick 45 ball every time.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:08:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:

So you're saying that 45 ACP ball isn't as good a stopper as 9mm hollowpoints?

If so... isn't that kind of obvious?



Yes, that's what I'm saying and NO its apparently NOT obvious from reading this thread and some of the other 1911 JMB cultists.

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:08:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
As an aside, what pistol are you carrying that is 100% reliable with ball, but only 99.99% with good FMJ's?

Hey no fair! I'm the one asking the question! Go get your own thread!!
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:09:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By LWilde:
Would YOU want to be shot with a .45ACP ball round?



No.

But the point of self-defense is to stop the bad guy ASAP, without doing any collateral damage.

And gold dots feed just fine in my .45's.


Come to think of it, though, the nose profile of the ranger-t .45 loads is so close to ball that I can't imagine ANY quality gun having issues with them, if it won't feed gold dots.....
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:10:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
As an aside, what pistol are you carrying that is 100% reliable with ball, but only 99.99% with good FMJ's?

Hey no fair! I'm the one asking the question! Go get your own thread!!



I was asking YOU the question....
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:11:44 AM EST
Even my cheap-o Springfield mil spec digests hollowpoints with ease. But if it concerns you, put a good hollowpoint in the pipe and ball in the mag.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:13:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
As an aside, what pistol are you carrying that is 100% reliable with ball, but only 99.99% with good FMJ's?

Hey no fair! I'm the one asking the question! Go get your own thread!!

I was asking YOU the question....

I could answer you, but then I'd use up my 1,998th post.

Oh crap, I just did!
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:15:00 AM EST
.45 FMJ will certainly get the job done, it may not be a 1 shot stop though. I would NEVER want to be on the receiving end of a 230 gr. FMJ round. I don't know how it will perform against a normal target, but if that target is wearing body armor, I'll take a .45 FMJ over a HP anything. I've got some pics from a test I did of what a .45 FMJ will do to a level IIA vest and it's scary. It won't penetrate, but an 8" x 8" area is deformed and pushed about 3" back, almost like a cone. The target will be knocked down and if it isn't, RUN AWAY. MJD
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:15:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:15:45 AM EST
the 9mm HP MAY expand, but a .45 FMJ WON'T contract.......
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:16:23 AM EST
I love these threads.

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:21:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mall-Ninja:
the 9mm HP MAY expand, but a .45 FMJ WON'T contract.......




But due to its mass .45 ball WILL pass thru the target, wasting much of its terminal ballistics and stopping power BEHIND the bad guy (possibly in a small child or pregnant woman - get ready to share a cell with Brutus) , ending up doing less work than 9mm HP which expends ALL of its energy in the BG.



Trite catch phrases are cute, but dangerous.

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:23:48 AM EST
I wonder how many of our enemies in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam died from being shot with .45 ball ammo.
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:25:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:26:43 AM EST
Wouldn't it be about the equivalent of shooting someone with a .410 shotgun shooting slugs?
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:26:45 AM EST
Two Words;

SHOT PLACEMENT

Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:27:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By CZ75_9MM:
I wonder how many of our enemies in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam died (eventually) from being shot with .45 ball ammo.




Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:30:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:33:32 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/10/2005 9:34:35 AM EST
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