Like many of you, I enjoy shooting military type weapons, (AK's, AR's, etc.).  it's great recreation and a great hobby.  In the back of my mind though, I think - gee, what if I have to use this thing for real someday?  Riots, BATF, Red Dawn?  What if we're invaded, or the govt turns against us, or there's a huge riot outside my door and I have to fend off dozens of crazy losers who want to kill me and rape my wife?

Then I say to myself……that is all crap.  None of that will ever happen.  I live in the burbs of a midsize city, so the riot scenario is so unlikely I can't even entertain it.  I live in kansas, so It's unlikely an invading foreign army would ever be a threat here (as if it would happen at all).  And as for the govt coming to take our guns; I doubt it.  My belief is that our rights will taken bit by bit over many years.  Registration, bans, and licensing will all strangle what we have today.  Maybe as soon as 2-3 generations from now there probably won't be such thing as private ownership of firearms, and the populace will be slaves.  All without the bloodshed and affront to the constitution of a door to door confiscation.

So, honestly, am I kidding myself when I picture those "what if" situations?  Right now when I consider purchasing a rifle, I worry about availability of spare parts, availability of ammo, chrome lined bbls in case I'm living in the woods for years, availability and durability of mags, etc.  But should I rather just focus on what I enjoy shooting, and what I can afford, rather than trying to get "the ultimate" survival/militia/riot weapon?

Opinions, thoughts, commentary?  

Ask the folks involved in the LA riots or in southern Florida after hurricane Andrew.

They found it very real.

rtl, I also live in Kansas.  Ottawa to be exact.  And my power was just out for a week.  And my Dad still doesn't have power.  You would not think in this day and age that some one could be with out electricity for over a week.  Who knows what else could happen.

Above all, guns help me sleep at night.  And they give me peace of mind.  Even if I never use them in a shtf situation.

Yes I do beleive SHTF is totally possible, buy your new rifle with all the good stuff.

PS. Do you know anyplace hiring for IT professionals??

This brings to mind a very good question.  Some people say that Americans will never turn on Americans, but the LA riots and others have shown that this is possible.  Albeit these are two totally different contexts.

True.  I had some friends at the time of Andrew who are troopers and had to do a "rotation" in Plantation after the storm.  What DIDN'T hit the papers is that the armoury at the Air Force base was leveled and the locals quickly helped themselves to the M16's that were strewn about.  They said you could hear automatic gunfire ALL NIGHT LONG while they were there.  Kinda scary really, but they had National Guard soldiers to buddy up with during their stay.

The body count was also greatly misreported because the illegal immegrants who were staying in tin sheds were not counted among the dead.  They numbered in the dozens killed.

Keep on being a good Boy Scout and stay prepared.  There are much worse hobbies you could choose.  Right?

Deep subject brother, and a question that has been asked dozens of times to me by the uninitiated.

There are more reasons to shoot a gun than there are colors in a rainbow.

But for Dolomite, the bottom line is thus:

[SIZE=3]GUNS ARE FUCKING COOL!!![/SIZE=3]


(print that out, fold it up, and mail it to your sister)

I thought it was bunch of BS too.......and then came the LA riot.........That was real.

There is that old saying..."Better to have it and not need it than need it and don't have it."

two totally different contexts, but not two totally different people.  the "Americans" that turned on other Americans in the L.A. riots were concerned only with themselves and turning a jury verdict into an excuse to do things they otherwise would have trouble starting, all in the name of race.  i believe that these kind of people would come out of the woodwork again in any SHTF scenario.  they don't care about America, just themselves.  they'd do just about anything for the right price.

as for the original question: is a SHTF scenario really possible?

well, i don't imagine the Germans of the '30s really thought that mass genocide was their cup of tea, but it happened.

and i'm pretty sure that late-18th century Britian didn't think the colonists would have the guts, werewithal, or means to mount a resistance, let alone an attack, but it happened.

did the afghans know that the russians were coming in?  or any of the former soviet bloc countries for that matter?

the problem with people who ask that question and then come to the conclusion that it won't/can't happen is that they are looking at America as it exists now.  the irony is that America wouldn't look a thing like it does now if SHTF occurred.  we'd be a completely different country.  suspension of the Constitution and BoR would most likely have to come first, though not necessarily.  i just personally believe that would be the logical first step for whomever wished to create a SHTF scenario.

it can happen.  don't ever kid yourself into thinking that it can't.  

I know nothing of this sort will happen.
(Alright, alright so I knew the "Twin Towers" would never go down too.)

Why not be prepared for just emergencies period ?
A few gallons of water, thirty days food and in my case I keep thirty days of dog food on hand and of course a few weapons and ammo.

Of course I expect that nothing will happen - really !

I have as my wallpaper an areil photo of Ground Zero.  Who would have imagined that was possible?  SHTF senerios are user defined.  It could range from a person breaking into your home, to a pack of rabid dogs running around your neighborhood, to an apocolyptic invading hoard.  SHTF has no closed book definition.  It's the unexpected.  Every gunowner I know has at one time used the addage, "better to have when you don't need it, then need when you don't have."  Yes, a shotgun can handle most SHTF senerios, but while we are still allowed to have AR's, AK's, FAL's, etc..., then why not learn to shoot and maintain them?

SHTF is all BS.

Until the SHTF.

You might not have to worry about it. Odds are in your favor that you won't. Feeling lucky?

In a country as large, complex, and fast moving as this one, it is entirely possible for a local or regional situation to create a SHTF without warning. Suppose the New Madrid fault were to really cut loose. If St. Louis, Chicago (a long shot, but one can hope...) [;)], and other cities along the Miss. and Ohio Rivers were to be damaged the way LA was in the Northridge quake, imagine the chaos. It wouldn't be permanent, but order and the infrastructure would come apart immediately, and it could be awhile before normalcy was restored. Think about cascade effects, ripple effects, and unintended consequences, and all of that tells me that it's better to be safe than sorry.

Let me remind y'all of something rarely mentioned or forgotten about those days in LA;
they [i]banned the sale of ammo[/i] in Los Angeles County !!!!!!!!
If you weren't stocked up, you had to go over the county line to purchase.  

Depends on what you mean by the SHTF.  If you are talking about shooting it out with hordes of spikey-haired mutants who are intent on sodomizing you to death and then eating you, then I'd say forget it.  The "Mad Max" stuff isn't going to happen.  The wealthy and powerful of this world have far too much to lose by letting it all collapse around them.  They may curtail your rights and privileges enormously, but "civilization" will soldier on.
If you mean localized disturbances of a temporary nature, then TSHTF all over the world every day.  I own and like to to shoot military style rifles, but I hardly consider them a necessity in case of rioting.  A pump or autoloading shotgun or a lever action carbine will run off looters quite effectively.  They aren't suicide troops (or the aforementioned spikey-haired mutants), they are just pus-bags looking for easy pickings.  A shot or two will send them on their way in search of same.
Water, food, basic first aid, necessary prescription meds, etc. are all important things to have on hand.  Just about any modern firearm and ammo will serve, but if you need insulin an AR-15 w/3000 rounds of ammo is hardly going to be a substitute.

Good topic.

I live in rural Ohio and can remember the long lines at the gas station on the night of Sept. 11.  Thank goodness things remained orderly but it was surreal seeing vehicles lined up a mile down the street.  Only consider fuel, and consider the possibilities of the potential of extended time periods of shortages.  Tempers will flare and patience will run out.  My bet is a civil SHTF scenario is more likely on the loss, or shortage, of commodity goods rather than troops invading out of the corn fields behind the house.  Even so I'll at least get a few good shots off. [sniper]        

SHTF? All the time, somewhere or another.

TEOTWAWKI?  Probably not.  

On Sept. 11 I went to bed secure in the fact
that I had 65 days of food,20 days of water of
clean water not counting the half dozen bottles
of water purfication tablets and clorox bleach,
and both tanks on mt truck were full.
Add to that a few pre-ban Ar's and shotguns and
my SIG.
The only thing I thought I should of had was a
DSA FAL and a good 1911,I know,I am greedy.

AMEN

I think that everyone needs at least four guns.  That way they will be covered in every situation.

1. shotgun

2. pistol

3. short, medium range rifle (AK,AR,etc.)

4. long range rifle (30-06, 308, 7mm, 300mag, 50bmg[:D]

After you have one of these four the next step is to try to get at least one of every gun made[:D].

Basically you can figure on experiencing ONE MAJOR riot every 35-50 years if you are living in a large city. A riot large enough where the Police can't control it.

In which case an Assault Weapon MAY come in handy..but most likely won't be used..since only a tiny fraction of people in a city come in contact with rioters.

So WHY have Semi Auto versions of Military Weapons ?
Basically you aren't really going to need them..but at the rate that unconstitutional and repressive legislation is being churned out at the State and Federal Level..your Grandchildren will [b]DEFINATELY NEED these weapons.[/b]

Most laws simply accumulate. And it is only a matter of time (though a rather long time) before your descendants will have very few if any rights left.

So do them a favor..keep building your personal arsenal. The Weaponry may be a bit outdated by the time your granchildren will be using it..but it will still do the job.

How true, How true[beer]

My $.02

I agree with many others on this.

When buying a new weapon, look for qualities that could be used in a SHTF scenario.
But don't let it dictate your purchase.

It is good to have a "what if" idea in your head at all times, even with something as simple as driving (i.e. "What if" that suburban pulls out in front of me?) so why not have one when a SHTF scenario happens?

The main thing in my opinion is don't let it dictate your life (no tin hats).

Remember, in both LA riots, the police did not enter the riot area to help people. Their job is containment; to keep people in so they won't invade whitey's turf and spread their BS riot with them. The people who live in the riot area must fend for themselves until the national guard arrive. In the first riot, the national guard got shot at until they were authorized to use their jeep mounted 50 BMGs. The rioters where on the roofs of building, hiding behind cinderblocks and taking shots at the NG. It wasn't until they deployed the .50 that the guard put an end to it.

Anyway, considering this is the case, it's easy to picture a situation where there is a major riot that the police cannot contain. If you live close to an area with that sort of history, you sure as hell better keep a couple of day's food and water and plenty of ammo ready at all times.

I have only 2 things to say, Wounded Knee and Oka

Please forgive my ignorance. SHTF? Just a term I am not familiar with. Someone please help.

Living in the DC area, it's great fun to see the sheeple run to the grocery store and clean out the shelves of bread, milk, eggs & toilet paper everytime SNOW is mentioned.  I guess french toast & toilet time are the norm.

It's equally fun when the wife starts to panic a little and asks if we need to hit the store.  "Need?  No.  We've got stores."

9/11 was even better.  Nobody knew where that days events would lead us.  National Martial Law?  Possible.  Rationing?  Sure.  Major disruptions of services?  Maybe.   Again, when the wife asked what we need to buy it was very comforting to tell her we were already covered.  I had a little chuckle watching some folks here on the boards scrambling to buy ammunition, because they didn't have any.

Improvised baseball bat

SHTF is complete BS - until it happens in your town.

Its a remote reality. Something to be prepared for.

As it realted tro firearms choices, SOME of my guns are just intended for plain old rootin' tootin' shootin' fun. they don't ALL have to be SHTF weapons.

Ditto here....I remembered that day 9/11, we got let out of work early and I could see the face of panic on the street. The traffic was on stand still, people running everywhere, siren blared, the Metro trains were pack to the rim and even the air smelt different.  Every branch of Police were on high alert, even the Secret Services guys were on flak jackets. I came home to my wife and kid that day with a good feeling knowing that we were prepared for the SHTF (actually for the Y2K). You never know, but it is always good to be prepared.

If you are not prepared mentally and physically to use a gun to kill someone in order to save your life your family's, then you shouldn't have such guns. Stick to pellet guns or at most, a .22.

Single shot.

IMHO. [:D]



Well, they are certainly far-fetched, outlandish scenarios, but after 9/11, even such things as Tom Clancy novels, in all their imaginative stretching of possibilities of how other countries and peoples might wish to blot us out of existence, look somewhat antique- anything is now possible. The unthinkable has happened. What might come next? The term "likely" is being redefined daily. Which Cassandra do we believe? So, if we realise that anything is possible, then, what's wrong with taking precautions? What looks alarmist today might look, in hindsight, prudent and far-thinking tomorrow.



I hear a tune..Oh, it's "Always Look At The Bright Side Of Life" (whistles)- Monty Python [:D]

 

If you have ever spent time in Third World countries, which are typical of most of the Real World on this planet, you might realise that suburbia, in its comfy cushioned existence, is the Unreal World. Most people in the owrldlive, as Thomas Hobbes said, lives that are "nasty, brutish and short". Suburbia is like Hawaii in Dec. 1941, with its pleasant climate and atmosphere; an oasis and refuge away from the harshness of the rest of the world's travails. The insularity of it all lulls one into a sense of false security, due to its languidness and disconnection with the daily dying and sufferings of most people in the world. You too, could become like Admiral Kimmel: "It could never happen here." Look what happened to him, and worse, to the people he was responsible for. Yep- it could never happen here. I hope you're right.

 

Well, who's going to take the guns, then? The Ladies' Gardening Club of your local suburb?

.  

Only if we let them.



And just what exactly are you doing to forestall such an eventuality? Or are you just being fatalistic, shrugging your shoulders and saying,"There's nothing I can do- that's just the way it is."

You must find out what is most important to you, and what you truly believe. Unfortunately, life in suburbia does not give one much chance to test out one's beliefs for truth until it is too late. By that time, our means to preserve our individual freedoms and lives will have been denied us. But, if that's not important, than just go and keep shooting, but don't complain when you aren't allowed to do it anymore.





........................

"The fact is that the average man's love of liberty is nine-tenths
imaginary, exactly like his love of sense, justice and truth. He is not
actually happy when free; he is uncomfortable, a bit alarmed, and
intolerably lonely. Liberty is not a thing for the great masses of men.
It is the exclusive possession of a small and disreputable minority,
like knowledge, courage and honor. It takes a special sort of man to
understand and enjoy liberty -- and he is usually an outlaw in
democratic societies."

- -- H.L. Mencken, February 12, 1923, Baltimore Evening Sun

The SHTF scenario that I keep coming back to is one that occurs in a larger city. Significant disruption of a cities power supply will cause several problems, not the least of which is a breakdown of the grocery storage and retail business. If a city's power and therefore it's ability to store and preserve food is severely hampered, then where are people going to get food?

Obviously an event that would cause significant disruption of an entire cities power supply would also cause other problems such as water distribution, sewage removal, trash collection, and other breakdowns to normal life. This event could be as simple as a significant grass fire as in California, a big tornado with a bit better aim (remember Andover, rtl?), an LA style riot, a terrorist attack on a critical area (didn't the FBI say that the terrorists were planning an airliner in a nuclear power plant scenario?) As you can see, these events are not farfetched, or take an invading army.

IMHO we will not have a 'national' SHTF, but a series of smaller 'regional' or even 'local' episodes of SHTF's. Most of the sheep will either die quickly or thank their lucky stars that it happened to someone else, never seein that they are in a 'cosmic crap shoot' with their lives.

As long as I live in a city, I will prepare for a local SHTF by keeping my SIG 220 and AR10 close by and stocking up on ammo and non-perishables. But my ultimate goal is to not live in a city for much longer. Out here in New Mexico there are a lot of places a person can go to make a living off of the land if they don't mind shooting, cleaning, and preserving dinner.[:D] Cold mountain spring water and fresh venison seasoned with wild onions, with wild new potatos on the side. A cow for milking for butter and cream, barter for flour, pick some wild blackberries and you've got a dutch oven dessert. WOW, kinda sounds good.[;)]

Each of us sould be prepared for a breakdown of the local or regional 'public utilities' with the associated trickle down impact on things that the urbanites take for granted. My personal level of stocking is for a 60 day time of no serviceable utilities and more than enough ammo for the SIG and AR10, gas in the truck and the dirt bikes, with a 100 gal. reserve. (I know it's not enough fuel but it will get me and mine out of town and started)

This SHTF is real, be ready.

A civil, honorable man without food will

Day 1 Lie
Day 2 Steal
Day 3 Kill

Therefor we are always but 3 days away from SHTF. Any and everywhere in this country.  Those that prepared must be ready to defend from those who did not.

Why worry; just get the equipment that you like and can afford etc.  I personally don't think you will ever wear out a chrome-lined BBL, you would have to shoot too many rounds. I spoke with Bushmaster once about barrel life, and they said they have a BBL that has 20,000 rounds thru it, and that was 10 years ago. I would get spare parts such as springs extractors, etc.

The question is "will SHTF ocurr soon?" I don't know, but never in my wildest dreams would I ever think that anyone would want to hit a sky scraper and the Pentagon with a passenger plane loaded with fuel.  Maybe a small private plane during a medical emergency or something, but not a huge commercial jumbo jet.

About forty years ago there was talk of a "2nd civil war" and such.  SHTF if you will.  Much was made of it by soem but of course nothing ever happened - unless you were in a riot torn city a few years later.  Since then have been more riots and disturbances, serious floods, storms and earthquakes.

2001 borught us the horror and panic of September 11, the Second Day of Infamy.  Few ever though such a thing could happen.  It may happen again, maybe on a larger scale or more widespread.  I surely don't know.

A little preparation is a good thing.  Apropriate to that are enough arms, ammunition and practice in their use to defend the other things you believe essential.  A mere $1000 spent now may make your life livable in the future.  Seems only reasonable to me!

If SHTF never comes - great!  I can still enjoy shooting the guns.  The MRE's make decent eating on trip in the woods or when the power is out.  Similar uses can be made of most items one accumulates to survive the unknown, so why not prepare, at least a little?

Watch "The Shelter" episode of the Twilight Zone. It shows how your friends and neighbors will react during a SHTF situation.

Other than that, a cell phone with 911 on autodial will resolve 99.999% of ALL situations.

SHTF is a matter of perspective.  It can be as big as WWIII or as little as a crazed lunatic kicking down your door at 2am.  Either way it pays to be prepared.

Anyone who  thinks it can't happen is living a sheltered life.  Read history, read your current events.  Someone, somewhere, is wishing they were armed.

Being a resident on the east coast of Florida, the most likely SHTF scenario is of course a hurricane.   If a big one came through, knocking us on our collective asses, that WOULD be adequate justification to begin armed watches of what's left of our neighborhoods.   Where destruction lands, buzzards soon follow to cart off the valuables...but not if the locals are running patrols and have a sniper's nest or two set up in strategic locations.

We also have to deal with the admittedly remote possibility of a tidal wave which could, has, and eventually will happen as a consequence of a large undersea landslide or earthquake.   Depending on severity, it could be minor or it could be a state scrubber, in which case you get the hell out or you die on impact and you don't worry about it.

There may never be an SHTF scenario that I need to deal with...but I maintain a certain level of preparedness at all times, even if it's just enough gas in the car to get 100 or more miles away without stoppping for fuel.   I also keep plenty of ammo handy and a few reliable guns are always close at hand.    I really need to upgrade my readiness and put together a survival kit, but haven't done it, shame on me.

CJ

Hmmm, I don't see much need for caching food and what not.  I do not envision a prolonged shortage being likely.  Should that situation arrise I would simply ride my mountain bike into the hills with some camping gear.  Here in the pacific northwest water and game are plentiful.  I think I could easily get by.

Regarding SHTF being a consideration when purchasing a gun, I say absolutely.  To me, a gun is a tool, it won't reliably perform it's job, then it serves no purpose.  Why own a gun that won't stand up to abuse?  If you buy the cheapest black and decker and it burns out you will realize you should have bough the dewalt.  SHTF can happen anywhere.  It could be a camping trip gone wrong or a gang of thugs trying to jack your car.  You want something you can count on.  

I don't envision a typical fantasy situation requiring 5000 rounds belted 7.62 and an M-60.  You are far more likely to need a reliable gun with 10 rounds.  It doesn't have to be a military type weapon.  In many situations a bolt or lever gun would serve you better, but reliability is always important.  

Dammit WHAT IS TEOTWAWKI!?

If that's the episode about the guy with the bomb shelter, I thought he totally had his sh*t together. I admire him. And I liked his gun collection as well.

Sorry Imbrog, on that day 9/11 the phone was not working.  I tried to call home and all phone lines were jam.  I couldn't get thru with the cell phone either. At the Metro station, there were long lines for the 3 public phones that they have.

Excellent thread.
Our world is changing rapidly.
I think in the '80s, a government think tank predicted that our next major military engagement would be in the mid-east.
A few years later we had Desert Storm, and now we are back in the region again.

Recently, a government group predicted that one of the biggest threats to our security would be the masses of orphans created by world wide AIDS. These people have no parents, and are looking for acceptance. Nice opening for militant Islam, ya think?
If our "best minds" were right before, could they be right again?

I'm sure many of us would have answered this thread differently on Sept. 10.
Now, things are different.
If that kind of attack could be coordinated, just imagine 2 or 3 "dirty bombs" going off in a dozen major cities at the same time.
(Dirty bomb - conventional explosive device that is packed with radioactive material. Say, the capsules from 20,000 old smoke detectors.)
What would happen to society if a dozen major cities suddenly had 1000 dead, and another 1000 or more with radiation sickness?
We could have been close to this kind of scenario with anthrax.

While studies indicate that much of life is returning to normal, I think many of us are realizing that life will never be the same as it was on 9/10/01.
As a white male, I don't think I had ever experienced the kind of hate that these people have for us. But, as an American, and a Christian, I am now aware of their hate.
Will we see more attacks?
Will they be worse than before?
Will it have a drastic effect on our lives?
(ID chips, national ID card and database, etc.)
Time will tell.

SHTF?

It already has.

SHTF? I don't know but think about this. I spent good money to install (and maintain) smoke/fire detectors in my house and in every bedroom. In 15 years we have never had even one fire! Was it a waste of time and money? I get re-certified in CPR every year and I've never had to use the skill. Waste of time? Being prepared is NOT about what is likely to happen but instead what is unexpected and unimaginable.
Even if you never NEED to use your SHTF skills you NEED to pass the skills and the means on to your children and grandchildren because some distant descendant WILL NEED them.

Yup, I had no cell service at all.  Landline phones were jammed.  Streets were packed.   White house staff walking around all dazed.  The SHTF on 911.