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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/22/2005 1:40:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 1:41:52 PM EDT by arowneragain]
I was reading nationwide's thread, and wondering:

When the war in Iraq started, what did you think the outcome would be?

At what point did you expect us to 'come home'?

What form of government did you expect us to 'install'?


Discuss...


(and please, no 'kill 'em all'...)

edit:

discuss from the perspective of what your thoughts were as it started, not as it developed or as it is now

(ok, discuss it however you want; i only add the edit to prevent this from duping nationwide's thread)
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:43:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 1:48:36 PM EDT by WildBoar]
I expected us to find Saddam and take him out. I expected terrorists to flock to Iraq. I expected us to not find WMDs in any great quantity. I thought my friends who pictured the Iraqis turning into another state to be smoking the most expensive weed on the planet. I pictured Turkey moving into N Iraq after the Kurds were givena free reign. I pictures Iran eggin on the Shia to revolt.


I expected them to revert to the animals like they are. They need a brutal hand over them to keep em inline. Sorry but I never had much faith in a people who fought like the Phrench and allowed themselves to be ruled over witha hard hand.


I dont expect us to ever fully pull out of Iraq

I picture at best an occupation like in Germany but with insurgents causing problems for as many years. Iraq will never progress beyond what they have always been capable of. Any people that need someone to take the initiative to free them will not make good use of the gift given.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:43:16 PM EDT
I expected us to kill or capture saddam. Multiply the amount of terrorists by 100 from previous amount.
Bomb the shit out of their mudhuts and rebuild them modern homes,etc. Get Americans killed over a religion that hates us and finally spend billions of taxpayer money to accomplish nothing.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:50:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I expected them to revert to the animals like they are. They need a brutal hand over them to keep em inline..




One of the most brutally honest things ever posted here.
It's sad but, its true.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:50:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
(and please, no 'kill 'em all'...)


Then I guess; "no comment"
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:51:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 1:52:39 PM EDT by Dv8xbox]
I pictured people embracing each other , puppies and lollipops , hugs and kiss's , the taliban to declare cease fire and ice cream floats for all!

Actaully I could care less as long as there was going to be less of them. Oh yeah and lower gas prices so I guess on both accounts I pictured everything all wrong!
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:54:36 PM EDT
I thought we would find chemical weapons. I expected us to capture or kill Saddam and his sons.
I thought our main problem would be from Iran, although I didn't expect so many of the Sunnis to become insurgents---I expected them to instead try to strike a deal to keep some of their power. I expected the main problems to come from the Shi'ites, spurred by Iran.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:54:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 1:56:16 PM EDT by Zaphod]
I expected cheering crowds.

I wasn't expecting Jefforsonian democracy, but wasn't hoping for institutionalized Islam, either.

I still think we did the right thing by going in.

I still think we should have been 50 times more bloody violent on the way in and ever since.

Maybe I'm a dreamer, but that's life.

ETA: I also expected to find chemical and bilogical weapons, and preparations for nukes. I still think they are somewhere. No way Saddam was so stupid as to FAKE everything when he knew his time would come because of it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:56:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ARKAN_the_Tiger:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I expected them to revert to the animals like they are. They need a brutal hand over them to keep em inline..




One of the most brutally honest things ever posted here.
It's sad but, its true.



I didnt even like saying it becyase I was there in 91 and respected teh Kurds a great deal, but for the most part, any radical Islamic people need brutality. Its all they know and desire.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:58:40 PM EDT
I expected us to find large stocks of WMDs.

I expected WMDs to be used on our troops but prayed it wouldn't happen.

I expected Saddam to have been killed, likely by bomb.

I expected that the support for the war would have lasted a bit longer.

I DID NOT expect us to be home in 3 years or whatever. I knew it would take a long time. This is the Middle East of course... There shall be war and rumors of war.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:59:28 PM EDT
I am and was always against the Iraq war, but in favor of the Afghanistan campaign.

I believe that this is not the end of this and we will see a three way civil war when we leave, just as Bin Laden predicted. We've played right into the hands of this and have created more terrorists/enemies than we had originally.

There was and is NO WAY to win this as it has no true obvious military objective.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to quell those whom do not wish to be, regardless of your military superiority - this has been proven through history via the Greeks, the Romans, the English, the Nazis, Vietnam and now Iraq. It is possible to defend against enemies, but that would mean defending your HOMELAND not invading and attacking, but defending - we've wasted money, resources and precious American soldier's lives for a unobtainable goal against a country that was not capable of really even being a threat. Imagine the things we could have accomplished with those billions on our own Northern and Southern borders, or building defense systems and gathering intelligence....
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:00:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:00:32 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
In hindsight, I wish we had just invaded, crushed Saddam and once he and his sons were dead, I wish we would have just left the ruins for the Iraqis to deal with. If we had done that, the Iraqis would have been responsible for picking up the pieces themselves, instead of being dependent on us.

Had we kicked their ass and left, we would have accomplished what we wanted with few casualties and come away as total winners. Let's face it, the goal was not to bring democracy to Iraq, but to take out Saddam. That was the #1 goal. But as always, we as Americans have to be try to take the "high road" to make the rest of the world respect us. And as usual, that approach has cost us.

Had we left Iraq, there was the possibility other undesirables could have taken power. But the truth is, we could have gone back and invaded Iraq 10 times and kicked their ass again and again and again until they got the picture. And we could have done so with far fewer lives lost than what we have doing it this way.

But that's all hindsight. The reality is we are there and now that we are, we have to try to stick it out. Though the actual war ended in about May 2003 and what we are doing now is a police action (I hate that word but it applies here), the world will view our success based on what happens from this point forward, not what happened in the actual war.

As much as I hate war, there's one thing I hate far more....losing. So we gotta do whatever it takes to come out of this viewed as winners. Our credibility depends upon it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:00:43 PM EDT
I am almost embarrassed to say I thought it would be like liberating France in WWll. Then we'd leave and they would live happily ever after, sorta.
After the post invasion attacks began, I thought we'd clean that up right quick.
I kinda figured at some point we would find some WMDs in larger concentration than we have, at least enough to satisfy the media and shut up the left.
I'm dissapointed.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:05:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:06:59 PM EDT by Grunteled]
I expected Saddam to be found and killed and then a little more cooperation and support for a new governement by the populus. I expected Syria to be a pain in the ass and Iran to get a surly knowing we were stretched somewhat thin. I expected at least some civil fighting for power. I expected us to clamp down on the flow of fighters into the region MUCH better.

ETA: I never bought the WMD self-defense aspect of it and figured that for a poor platform in the first place. I did think he had much more than we eventually found.


I'm disappointed by what we see being put in place over there. I'm disappointed by the people not seeking real freedom but simply a familiar tyrant with many heads. I'm also optimistic that by projecting a presence into the region we can at least twist the arms we need to twist a little harder, and on that front we have seen some shifts in the region.

I think we forgot the one lesson of freedom. It's not sweet unless it's won for yourself. I thought they might be an exception in the start but not now.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:06:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:09:07 PM EDT by GotGuns]
Not to make any excuses for the people over there, but you have to realize that they do live in a totally different society than we do here. I think it will take time... and a heavy US influence... before they can really become a "democratic" nation.

It is in our nature to resist change. Kinda like the metric system (don't laugh, it's true) but on a much larger scale. Ask any old dinosaur what they think of metrics and then ask a recent college graduate. The metric system is slowly but surely becoming the standard here in the US, like it or not. It's just a matter of planting the seed with the youth and letting nature weed out the unimpressionable elders.

Unfortunately, it all hinges on our ability to stop insurgents from flooding the country and spreading their anti-democracy crap.

This is no more a military campaign than it is a psychological campaign.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:10:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
I am and was always against the Iraq war, but in favor of the Afghanistan campaign.

I believe that this is not the end of this and we will see a three way civil war when we leave, just as Bin Laden predicted. We've played right into the hands of this and have created more terrorists/enemies than we had originally.

There was and is NO WAY to win this as it has no true obvious military objective.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to quell those whom do not wish to be, regardless of your military superiority - this has been proven through history via the Greeks, the Romans, the English, the Nazis, Vietnam and now Iraq. It is possible to defend against enemies, but that would mean defending your HOMELAND not invading and attacking, but defending - we've wasted money, resources and precious American soldier's lives for a unobtainable goal against a country that was not capable of really even being a threat. Imagine the things we could have accomplished with those billions on our own Northern and Southern borders, or building defense systems and gathering intelligence....



It's not impossible, look at what the Romans did to Carthage. Of course we don't do that.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:10:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:14:50 PM EDT
I suspect that we will be there for another 5+ years, and when we pull out, we'll leave some troops behind.

I suspect that they will be attacked in the name of islam.

I suspect that Iraq will be right where it was when we went in.

Sad, but it is the middle east and islam preaches hatred and death to us and those who support us.

Those who helped us will be murdered and it will be back to islam as usual.

I would rather see the front stay there.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:23:23 PM EDT
Wow, this kind of talk would get most in some deep shit around here about a year ago. Just an observation. Hope everyone is being honest.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:27:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DocBrooks:
Wow, this kind of talk would get most in some deep shit around here about a year ago. Just an observation. Hope everyone is being honest.



Oh, if you can find my old threads on this you'll see me getting pretty much bashed over the head regularly on this topic - as I am regarding a myriad of topics on here.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:30:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
I am and was always against the Iraq war, but in favor of the Afghanistan campaign.


It is possible to defend against enemies, but that would mean defending your HOMELAND not invading and attacking, but defending

You favor the Afghan campaign yet say we shoudlnt invade and attack anyone, only defend.

Other than that I agree with you.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:32:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:33:51 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By DocBrooks:
Wow, this kind of talk would get most in some deep shit around here about a year ago. Just an observation. Hope everyone is being honest.



I am being honest. I got called a troll enough times when I first came on for having no enthusiasm for the Iraqi peoples capabilities. Some folks are so blindly loyal to the gov its scary.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:36:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:36:38 PM EDT by CeramicGod]

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
Originally Posted By CeramicGod:
I am and was always against the Iraq war, but in favor of the Afghanistan campaign.


It is possible to defend against enemies, but that would mean defending your HOMELAND not invading and attacking, but defending

You favor the Afghan campaign yet say we shoudlnt invade and attack anyone, only defend.

Other than that I agree with you.



In this instance, I believe that Afghanistan DID attack us as they were protecting and sheltering Bin Laden via the Mujahadeen.

This same thing can not readily be said about Iraq and the Bathists.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:46:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CeramicGod:

Originally Posted By DocBrooks:
Wow, this kind of talk would get most in some deep shit around here about a year ago. Just an observation. Hope everyone is being honest.



Oh, if you can find my old threads on this you'll see me getting pretty much bashed over the head regularly on this topic - as I am regarding a myriad of topics on here.





believe me, I've been there too.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:24:53 PM EDT
You guys talk as if Iraq was the last of our Middle Eastern troubles. If there is all this grumbling now, what about when it's Iran's turn? Or Syria's? Or Saudi Arabia's? What then? I see this as a possibly 20+ year effort at cleaning house in the WHOLE Middle East. These fuckers attacked us as never before in our history on 9-11. Some of you seem to conveniently forget that. And yes, the Middle East as a whole (by their tacit support of radical Islam) is responsible. ALL OF THEM. Some more than others, but all of them. We are not done, nor should we be. Unfortunately I see a sickening weakness in the American public that is mirrored by some of you here. With that in mind we may never fully avenge 9-11. The price for their collective actions on 9-11 should be so high that they will NEVER consider it again or at least stop those among them who would think it.


I'm not saying Iraq isn't without it's faults. We should learn from Iraq for future missions. And we should change our ways there now. I would be one of those who, if polled, would say I disagree with Bush's handling of Iraq. Why? Is it because we shouldn't be there or should pull out? FUCK NO!!! We aren't being hard-nosed enough! Syra and Iran (our current Laos and Cambodia) should be dealt with as hostile sanctuary areas. I'm not saying take them down now (although it's coming, or should be). But military incursions/strikes should be frequent. Fuck 'em if they don't like it. What're they gonna do? Send more insurgents? We got LOTS of Air Force and Navy planes just itching to bomb something, and those bastards don't have a jungle to hide in. Also, foreign populations should be dealt with as the Japanese and Germans were: screw this "liberation" shit. We didn't "liberate" Japan or Germany. We kicked their asses. Conquered them. Their people were treated with suspicion as potentially hostile UNTIL THEY PROVED OTHERWISE. No benefit of the doubt given. WE determine when the boot comes off your neck, no one else. Rules of Engagement should reflect the environment in which they exist; if it's openly hostile, then treat it as such. And fuck asking the Iraqi's for permission to attack somewhere (like we did in Fallujah). WE put them in power, they'll damn well listen. Also, we need more boots on the ground. Time for the "dude" hanging out with the crack of his ass showing and living at mommy's to step up to the plate---or be forced to. Yes, a draft. We got lots of fish to fry and we need troops for what is in effect a world war (like it or not).


Folks, I'm talking about going full throttle on this GWOT thing. This is about payback in it's most severe form. Political correctness be damned, it'll be the death of us all. We need the strength and endurance (as well as a healthy dose of HATRED) like the WWII generation had.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:38:17 PM EDT
I expected that Sadam and his tyrany would be removed this time.

This is not over yet.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:42:29 PM EDT

I expected us to find Saddam and take him out. I expected terrorists to flock to Iraq. I expected us to not find WMDs in any great quantity. I thought my friends who pictured the Iraqis turning into another state to be smoking the most expensive weed on the planet. I pictured Turkey moving into N Iraq after the Kurds were givena free reign. I pictures Iran eggin on the Shia to revolt.





Yep. Sorry, but whoever thought Iraq would be fertile ground for Jeffersonian-style western democracy musta been smoking LOTs o' quality weed.
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