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Posted: 10/11/2005 4:58:34 PM EDT
Dont shoot the messenger, this is just what I have read.



The USMC is finally going to retire their tried and trusted Unertl 10x scopes.

Their new scopes will be the Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50mm with Dick Thomas’ lighted Gen II 1st focal plane, mil dot reticles.

Premier has the contact to provide all the scopes with the reticles installed.





I have a Unertl 10x USMC scope. The ones they sold commercially are called the 10x tactical and are not marked USMC...but otherwise are the exact same scope. Simplest, most rugged scope you will ever use.

From what my contacts have told me the Corps wanted to go to a variable because they felt it would be better suited to Urban type environments like they are finding in Iraq. It also has something to do with the age of the people now in decision making positions. Variable powered scopes are the “new-rage“ and a newer generation is naturally going to be somewhat influenced by that.

I would bet that the Unertl’s ain’t going to get put too far away.

Never shot a Schmidt and Bender but have heard lots of good things about them. I know that all the major companies were biding and submitting test scopes to Quantico.



Think those Unertls will hit the surplus market?

Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:00:04 PM EDT
I'll be first in line if they do.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:01:01 PM EDT
I believe the Unertls have been refurbished and sold online for quite a while. The S&B is a much better scope though, by all accounts.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:03:49 PM EDT

I doubt they'll go with a variable scope. They break to easily and will shift their zero when you go from power to power.

Fix powers are more dependable.

They could switch to a variable, but I personally doubt it after hearing Marines and their M40's.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:05:39 PM EDT
I heard that the Navy was buying a bunch of SuperSniper scopes too. (believe it when I seen it.)
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:08:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:22:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 6:05:16 PM EDT by crazyquik]
This isn't a totally new piece.

It's what the British have been using on thier AIs for a while. I think a few other nations use it too.

It seems Canada is following Britain's lead with the .338 Lapua. Here is a new Canadian toy.



-Timberwolf 338 Lapua SWS.
-PGWDTI Titanium sound suppressor.
-US Optics SN-3 EREK 3.2-17.
-Titanium 25 minute Picatinny rail.
-Simrad mount.
-Dual side laser designator mount.
-26" helically fluted barrel. 1-10" 6 groove.
-Titanium side port muzzle brake.
-A5 stock with Titanium Cantilever Monoblock bedding.
-Parts kit, cleaning kit, tool kit.
-Handstop and rail.
-Harris S-BRM bipod.
-Adjustable sling.
-Five 5 round magazines.
-Fitted Pelican 1750 case.
-Drag bag.
-Action cover, suppressor cover.
-Lapua 250 grain Lock Base ammunition.


Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:26:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:29:50 PM EDT
I'm talking to the NCOIC of the Scout Sniper School at MCB Quantico. The only thing they are changing right now is the scope rings - right now they have DD Ross rings/bases, but they will be switching to Badger Ordinance.

I'll ask about the scope.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:36:57 PM EDT
Yes, they're getting S&B's. See snipers hide.com for a thread that includes the USMC guy responsible for the buy.


Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:47:02 PM EDT
Great, another foreign piece of equipment ( I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong ).

What's special about it?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:48:58 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:58:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 6:01:08 PM EDT by crazyquik]

Originally Posted By Blackjack272:
Great, another foreign piece of equipment ( I'm pretty sure, correct me if I'm wrong ).



Yup, ferrin!

'Sposed to be the cat's meow. Mo-betta than anything else. Glass, coatings, clarity, repeatability, etc. Lots of long range competitors use them, foriegn militaries use them. Made in Germany (though all the German companies pretty much get thier glass from the same place).

The only thing they've made for the last 50 years is rifle scopes. They dont make binoculars, or cameras (Leica), or stupid crystals (Swarovski ). They dont make any cheap stuff either.

These scopes would probably retail at what, $2500ish?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:00:31 PM EDT
It's about freakin time. SysCom has been talking about new day optics and "testing" for years in search of "the perfect" optic. I talked to my old Plt Sgt the other day and everyone is excited about the new scopes. It will require some training to transition over from the Unertl, but it's a eagerly awaited improvement.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:03:30 PM EDT
Somehow I doubt it is as tough as the Unertl.... Nothing was or is.

But hell, I might very well be using it one day, so even I could warm up to it.

I am interested in its capabilities and features...
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:17:04 PM EDT
The Unertl is a great scope, but they are beyond old and outdated. Since they are considered a piece of the M40, this age is detrimental to keeping guns up and thus detrimental to readiness. I like the Unertl, most who have used them do, but it's time for a change.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:30:05 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:36:50 PM EDT



So they are testing these. Wow! I'm in shock. I'd never thought they would have gone with a Schmidt & Bender.

Yep, another foreign made product. Not like our government has any loyality to this country. Oh wait, wasn't that XM8 foreign made? Look where that ended up.


If the Unterl is so outdated, why don't they update it?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:38:01 PM EDT
Well its about darned time.

My friend, LtCol Norm Chandler USMC ret, has been pushing a variable for years to all who would listen in the halls of the USMC. Norm developed the one piece all steel trigger guard, enlarged recoil lug with beveled edges to avoid hurting the bedding AND the tilt on the picatinny rail to increase the range of the scope. I must hasten to add that it is not just Col Chandler that made this come to fruition, far from it, I am just trying to give credit where I feel it is due as you can read in his Death From Afar series that he was calling for this some time ago. Not only did he call for this in print, but in person to every ear that was open at Camp Lejeune and elsewhere.

It is VERY gratifying to see this finally come to fruition.

The 10x scope is just not going to cut it on todays dynamic battlefield.

The ability to dial the scope down is critical for enlarging the field of view for close in operations and quick second shot capability.

AND it is critical for dusk shooting without NVWS use as dialing the scope down allows maximum light transmission into the scope.

I am very proud to know that LtCol Chandler's efforts paid off after YEARS of fighting the bureacracy and the institutional mindset that the services acquire. The USMC will be brought into the present day with a cutting edge rifle scope with superior capabilities over that of the Unertl.

Huzzah for the CORPS!


Dram out
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:39:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:
I doubt they'll go with a variable scope. They break to easily and will shift their zero when you go from power to power.



Variables may have been problematic back in the day, but not today. Given some of the short ranges snipers are engaging at during MOUT, a variable only makes sense. And since we are talking S&B, not Tasco, I doubt that POI shift will be an issue.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:40:19 PM EDT
i found this from the guy on snipers hide so much for people bitching about it being foriegn or not bought here.

and im glad the corp is buying modern scopes finally.


As far as our tax dollar, do not feel troubled. We are buying the scope from Premier Reticles, located in Winchester, Virginia. If you know the US companies pretty well, ask where they buy their parts and glass and you'll find that parts and pieces come from all over. Nearly everyone's glass starts somewhere in Asia, for instance.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:42:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:


So they are testing these. Wow! I'm in shock. I'd never thought they would have gone with a Schmidt & Bender.

Yep, another foreign made product. Not like our government has any loyality to this country. Oh wait, wasn't that XM8 foreign made? Look where that ended up.


If the Unterl is so outdated, why don't they update it?



If an American optics company manufactured a suitable replacement, I'm sure it would have been chosen.

As part of the refurbishment program, US Optics did make a few minor mods to the scopes. But, you can only do that so much. Technology has advanced and it's time for something new.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:45:56 PM EDT
What? No Trashcos?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:46:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tomislav:

Originally Posted By lippo:
I doubt they'll go with a variable scope. They break to easily and will shift their zero when you go from power to power.



Variables may have been problematic back in the day, but not today. Given some of the short ranges snipers are engaging at during MOUT, a variable only makes sense. And since we are talking S&B, not Tasco, I doubt that POI shift will be an issue.



Exactly. When you are shooting at multiple moving targets at the ranges commonly encountered in Iraq, you are severely handicapped with a fixed 10x optic.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:51:30 PM EDT
When you consider that the Unertl was a stopgap to begin with, it's amazing that it's held on for so long. It wasn't the best scope for the job when it was adopted, it just happened to be the one the Corps had lying around.

G
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:53:40 PM EDT
Premiere Reticles, Winchester Va., is being awarded a $15,000,000 firm-fixed-priced, indefinite delivery/indefinite quantity contract for Scout Sniper Day Scopes to replace the aging and failing Unertl sniper scopes currently used by US Marine Corps snipers. The initial purchase will be 575 scopes at $1749 each for a total initial delivery order of $1,006,250. The government may purchase up to a maximum of 7500 scopes on this contract over the five-year period the contract is in effect. Work will be performed in Winchester, Va. (75 percent) and Germany (25 percent), and is expected to be completed August 2010. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured using full and open competition. The Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico, Va., is the contracting activity (M67854-05-D-1043).


Contract awarded Aug 5, 2005
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:05:37 PM EDT
Trijicon Inc. Wixom, Mich., is being awarded a $660,000,000 firm-fixed-priced, indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract for Rifle Combat Optics (RCO) fixed 4 power scopes designed for use with the M-16 family of weapons. The RCO enhances the Marine?s ability to identify and engage targets in combat situations at greater ranges and with increased accuracy over standard iron sights. The initial purchase will be 104,000 scopes at $610 each for a total initial delivery order of $63,440,000. The government may purchase up to a maximum of 800,000 RCO scopes on this contract over the five-year period the contract is in effect. Work will be performed in Wixom, Mich. (90 percent) and Fredericksburg Va. (10 percent), and is expected to be completed in August 2010. Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured using full and open competition. The Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico, Va., is the contracting activity (M67854-05-D-1061).
You say Trijicon will be busy for awhile

Lightforce USA Inc., Orofino, Idaho, is being awarded a maximum $10,764,725 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract for Family of Rifle Day scope sizes 1-4x24, 2.5-10x24, 3.5-15x50, and 5.5-22x56, to support the Unites States Special Operations Command. Contract is for a minimum 40/ maximum 7,700 Day scopes and associated data. Work will be performed in Orofino, Idaho, and is expected to be completed by July 2010. Contract funds in the amount of $12,265, will expire at the end of the current fiscal year. This contract was competitively procured and advertised via the Internet, with one offer received. The Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division, Crane Ind., is the contracting activity (N00164-05-D-8558).

Variables for Special Ops
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:21:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By grognard1:
When you consider that the Unertl was a stopgap to begin with, it's amazing that it's held on for so long. It wasn't the best scope for the job when it was adopted, it just happened to be the one the Corps had lying around.

G



Where did you here that bit of bad gouge?

The Unertl 10 x USMC Sniper Scope was specifically designed for the Marine Corps for the M40A1. That's why it has a true cam arrangement specifically tuned for use with e barrel/cartridge combo in use at the time.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:25:41 PM EDT
I'm puzzled...what was/is wrong with the Unertl 10x scopes??? Beyond old and outdated??? Are they unservicable...I doubt the Corps would issue wore out junk to the finest snipers the world has ever known.
I mean...they seem to be doing a fine job in Iraq, Afghan., Africa, ect....

I remember the bashing of the 1911 in opt for the pizza gun...and Just like the 1911 the Marines will keep some of the Unertl 10x's in use and after the fad wears off they'll switch back.

I find it very disserting that the Great Satin(that'd be US) with all it's wealth and power can't build a scope equal or better than some 2nd rate Socialist regime that is as much against us as the damn terrorist. Fuck 'em
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:29:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:31:59 PM EDT
HAHAHAHA the idea that the unertl was a stop-gap solution is not only rediculous...but mildly retarded as well. if that were the case they wouldnt have been built, rebuilt and rebuilt again for 20+ years. as far as them hitting the surplus market...keep dreaming. i wouldnt want one anyway. the hell they have been through. melting reticles were a big problem for us. im not sure where they were sent off to but there was always at least 2 out being rebuilt at any one time.

the current US Optics thats out there on some M40s is the real stop-gap solution and in my opinion its as good or better than the unertl. but what do i know. im on the internet.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:57:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2005 12:09:38 AM EDT by SSeric02]

Originally Posted By shooter0311:
I'm puzzled...what was/is wrong with the Unertl 10x scopes??? Beyond old and outdated??? Are they unservicable...I doubt the Corps would issue wore out junk to the finest snipers the world has ever known.



Yes, they have been becoming unserviceable for years. They are old and outmoded; new technology is out there. A good scope, but worn out. The refurbishing job performed under contract by US Optics was a stop-gap.


I mean...they seem to be doing a fine job in Iraq, Afghan., Africa, ect....


Yes, they get the job done...ususally. But like I wrote earlier, the fixed 10x is NOT optimum for close range engagements. With the fixed 10x, your field of view is beyond small and it is difficult to quickly focus on close targets, particulalrly when they are moving. Variable power is the way to go given the current situation and mission.


I remember the bashing of the 1911 in opt for the pizza gun...and Just like the 1911 the Marines will keep some of the Unertl 10x's in use and after the fad wears off they'll switch back.


What's a "pizza gun?" Not likely. There will be some out there for a while as the new scopes are fielded into the system. But, eventually they will all be replaced. Some will be replaced outright. Others will be replaced as rifles go through the PWS for service. The optic is part of the rifle, not just an extra or option, and is required for the rifle to be serviceable. That's the problem with the Unertls. If your scope is bad, the whole rifle is unserviceable until the optic is repaired or replaced. Also, it wouldn't make any sense from a training standpoint.


I find it very disserting that the Great Satin(that'd be US) with all it's wealth and power can't build a scope equal or better than some 2nd rate Socialist regime that is as much against us as the damn terrorist. Fuck 'em


I don't know, Germany is known for it's precision instruments.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:06:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dramborleg:
Well its about darned time.

My friend, LtCol Norm Chandler USMC ret, has been pushing a variable for years to all who would listen in the halls of the USMC. Norm developed the one piece all steel trigger guard, enlarged recoil lug with beveled edges to avoid hurting the bedding AND the tilt on the picatinny rail to increase the range of the scope. I must hasten to add that it is not just Col Chandler that made this come to fruition, far from it, I am just trying to give credit where I feel it is due as you can read in his Death From Afar series that he was calling for this some time ago. Not only did he call for this in print, but in person to every ear that was open at Camp Lejeune and elsewhere.

It is VERY gratifying to see this finally come to fruition.

The 10x scope is just not going to cut it on todays dynamic battlefield.

The ability to dial the scope down is critical for enlarging the field of view for close in operations and quick second shot capability.

AND it is critical for dusk shooting without NVWS use as dialing the scope down allows maximum light transmission into the scope.

I am very proud to know that LtCol Chandler's efforts paid off after YEARS of fighting the bureacracy and the institutional mindset that the services acquire. The USMC will be brought into the present day with a cutting edge rifle scope with superior capabilities over that of the Unertl.

Huzzah for the CORPS!


Dram out



I would like to know more about this, I have heard kind of second hand form members of the SS community that LtCol Chandler was an enthusiast and head of WTBN, but beyond that had no impact on the community.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:10:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 8:19:58 PM EDT by SSeric02]
He's either loved or hated.

ETA: He did a lot for Gunny Hathcock and has helped the community, especially at 2nd MarDiv.

But, many feel he has ulterior motives. All of his articles for the Gazette seem push his personal agenda and views (which isn't always what's right for the Corps or the Scout Sniper community) and his products. For example, when the M40A3 was designed, he was quick to badmouth it and advertise his rifle in the same article.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:35:30 PM EDT
Hi STLRN,

LtCol Chandler is, in my opinion and personal observations, a die hard former Marine and a never ending advocate for his fellow Marines whether he is active duty or not he never stops trying to be an asset. I could list specific examples that I have been made privy to but that is NOT my place, and I will maintain radio silence. Just the way it has to be.

But as far as the record goes, it is a matter of public knowledge to the precision community. It has been recorded in pictures and print in the Death from Afar series on Marine Corps Scout/Snipers, what his opinions and recommendations and innovations have been. This is nothing that has been hidden behind a rock or secret squirrel. If you know Norm, you will KNOW what his opinions are on any given subject... post haste

Norm uses select USMC rte 2112 armorers to build his rifles, he owns Iron Brigade Armory by the way, and in conjunction with others, he developed the mounts that D and D Ross made for clip slotting and the all steel trigger guard I believe. I know he then went to Badger to source his parts for the rest of his designs.

Like I say, he has, along with other former and current Marines... been a driving force in the development of current rifle technology used today in the hardened precision rifle field. He has gone on record to say that none of the things he is proponent of are super secret or brain surgery... but the result of common sense engineering improvements that people have resisted implementing due to the "thats the way it has always been done" attitude that exists in military circles.

He is hard nosed, focused, and remains dedicated to the Marine Corps. I will never put myself in a position to speak for the man, as he is more than capable of doing that himself. The things I have stated are factual and are to be found in print and pictures, chronologically dated according to print date in his Death From Afar series of books.

I have never run into someone that has had anything bad to say about Norm, other than he is opinionated Some people are not fond of others opinions, and Norm is free with his but always backs his up with facts, figures and real world analysis... usually from other Marines.

Dram out
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 8:50:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 8:52:22 PM EDT by Dramborleg]
SSeric02,

When the new rifle came out, he told me that what he was irritated about was the "canoe paddle rifle stock", and the fact that it needed a variable power scope. And that was while it was still being developed and in final testing phases.

Ulterior motives?

Norm could make waaaaaaaaay more money than he does now by being a hack and pushing garbage on the community.

But he damn sure dont.

He has more integrity in his little finger than most people will ever have.

He obviously has faith in his design criteria and methodology and makes NO bones about that. He pushes his designs because they are heart and soul what he feels is best for that application.

I have no inkling to what he, in your opinion, has promoted that is counter to the best interests of the S/S community, but I would be very interested to hear what it is. Quite interested indeed.

So, in a nutshell, he hates that rifle stock something awful. But to infer an ulterior motive? I find that highly suspect and to my knowledge, ill intentioned at best. He pushed his design specs for sure, but I know for a fact that he did not want to build all the M40s for the Corps. That would be frankly ludicrous.

Dram out
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 9:00:04 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 9:30:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 10:32:48 PM EDT by SSeric02]
Dramborleg,

Generally, I think Col Chandler is a pretty good guy and I'm not trying to badmouth him here. Like I said, I recognize what he has done for the community and the late Gunny Hathcock. His guys also did some great work on a rifle for me and I have had several long conversations with him (you know what I mean ) regarding numerous subjects and appreciate his opinions. I also personally agree with him regarding some of the finer design points of the M40A3. But, I also don't buy all the hype that sometimes comes along for the ride and have found it best to take everything he says with a grain of salt. I also believe the PERCEPTION is that he pushes his agenda in many of his articles in an attempt to sell his product.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 5:39:07 AM EDT
SSeric02,


No problem sir, I understand what you are saying. I have run across various people on the net who were short sighted enough to run the Norm down and that can be irritating to someone that knows better.

Just like anything, or anybody with an opinion, it may indeed conflict with currently held wisdom or even personally held views on a subject. So, of course a grain of salt is de rigeur with almost anybodys personally held views. You know, opinions have been compared to a-holes and all the rest of that old saw.

Just my .00002 cents worth, did not mean to suggest an attack was being made on you. I was just put off by an inference that Norm wanted things contrary to the needs of the Corps or the S/S community... I just wanted to hear what those things were.

Take care,

Dram out
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 5:57:15 AM EDT
Here's my cousin in Afghanistan with an AI .338 Lapua sporting a Schmidt Bender:



He plans to purchase one when he returns home.
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