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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 5/12/2003 10:14:42 AM EDT
http://newsobserver.com/editorials/story/2531593p-2351189c.html From the founder of "howstufworks.com" Whats your opinion? I personally disagree with what he is recommending, but I guess even a socialist can express his views.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 10:24:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 10:27:23 AM EDT by soylent_green]
[url]http://newsobserver.com/editorials/story/2531593p-2351189c.html[/url] And the impetus to purchase stocks and fund emerging corporations that create wealth and new technologies would be? It isn't like taxes, where if I don't pay some cocksucker steals my stuff and puts me in jail, this is a purely voluntary situation. What an idiot.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 10:57:47 AM EDT
The phrase "dividend tax cut" and the reality behind it are both poor attempts at "compromise," playing up to politicians. I did not even bother reading the article referenced. Why? Simply, anything less than elimination of the tax at one end - either corporate or individual - is double taxation. Corporate profits are taxed, and the resulting net is paid in dividends to individual taxpayers. (Note that there is no guarantee that 100% is paid out, so I would personally prefer that the tax be eliminated at the individual level). Since individuals pay tax on the same funds, it is a double tax. To me it is not an issue of socialism vs. capitalism. It is an issue of honesty in the tax system.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:08:13 AM EDT
Nice to know that the guy is apparently a hard-line communist. Pertinent quotes:
The dividend system allows the wealthiest members of American society to concentrate startling amounts of wealth at the expense of everyone else.
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Yup, it's not "fair."
The majority of dividend income goes to the richest 10 percent of Americans. The 70 percent of us who do not receive dividend income should vote to eliminate dividends.
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Tyranny of the majority, anyone?
If we eliminate dividends, what will corporations do with excess cash? [red]I propose that we create a central account.[/red]
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Administered by whom? Three guesses and the first two don't count.
Corporations deposit their [red]excess cash[/red]
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Read: PROFITS
in this account quarterly. These deposits are [red]then distributed equally to every American citizen.[/red]
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Redistribution of wealth, or "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." But there's MORE!
Here's the justification: the excess cash comes because corporations charge too much.
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According to whom? If they charge [i]too much[/i] nobody buys! That's called [i]economics[/i] - something someone who runs a website called "how it works" ought to [i]understand[/i].
Dividends redistribute hundreds of billions of dollars from consumers and employees to the corporate elite every year. We The People should vote to redistribute that money back to ourselves instead.
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Restated: Evil corporations force us to buy their overpriced products so that they can commit the evil of earning more money that we have, so those of us who aren't able to take advantage of the economic system should take their money and wreck the system so we can all be equal - and equally miserable. What a fucktard.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:13:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 11:15:12 AM EDT by raven]
I'm all for tax cuts, but why not cut payroll taxes and the other taxes levied on wage earners? Why cut the taxes of the wealthiest who are hurting the least in this economy? Not that I'm against cutting their taxes too, but do Warren Buffet and Bill Gates really need another $100m in income next year? (Let's assume that's what they pay in dividend taxes now). Their net worths got big dents knocked into them over the last 3 years, but they're still worth billions. Same is true of the wealthest 10%, I am sure. I think they're doing ok and will be back raking it in soon. Why not help the regular working stiff?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:27:14 AM EDT
Raven, Read up on Economics, it helps the working stiff more, if the investers are allowed a larger return on there money, because they invest more, which allows companies to expand, thus creating jobs for the working stiff. Besides, 96% of the taxes are paid by 50% of the income earners. So any tax cut will net them more dollars. And anyone on a fixed income, like retirees will benefit from this as most of them have stocks of some sort. And if the tax on dividends is repealed there will be more companies offering them which benefits everyone with a 401(K) and mutual fund and not just stocks.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:31:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 11:34:11 AM EDT by raven]
Originally Posted By ADTECHARMS: Raven, Read up on Economics, it helps the working stiff more, if the investers are allowed a larger return on there money, because they invest more, which allows companies to expand, thus creating jobs for the working stiff. Besides, 96% of the taxes are paid by 50% of the income earners. So any tax cut will net them more dollars. And anyone on a fixed income, like retirees will benefit from this as most of them have stocks of some sort. And if the tax on dividends is repealed there will be more companies offering them which benefits everyone with a 401(K) and mutual fund and not just stocks.
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I majored in economics, thanks [:)] I understand how investment creates jobs and how higher returns that result from lowered taxes create incentives for owners of capital to invest and risk their money in ventures that create jobs. I'm just saying, times are pretty tough right now for a lot of people, and perhaps we can ease up on them first.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:45:42 AM EDT
How do you ease up on taxing someone who pays little or no taxes? Give them someone else's money?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:53:25 AM EDT
Any proposal to deny govt. cash, is fine with me...
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 11:56:01 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ADTECHARMS: How do you ease up on taxing someone who pays little or no taxes? Give them someone else's money?
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Payroll taxes are very substantial to a wage earner. The employee doesn't see directly how much he's being screwed out of. I've seen them, since my dad runs a business and his manager is a really crusty old right-wing maniac who takes every opportunity to tell me about how companies are basically tax collectors for the US government. Social Security taxes are collected too, and there's no refund on those monies collected.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:15:51 PM EDT
You mean the Premium paid for a defined benefit as with any other insurance? Granted it is mandatory, but this is what it is, a premium for the Social Security Payments, or for the Medicare depending on which you are reffering to. So in other words you do propose taking from someone else and giving to the "Less Fortunate" Because if they don't put in, someone has to and guess what, it is going to be the filthy rich who earned there money rather than the "less fortunate" who use the government to steal it for them.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:35:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 12:38:20 PM EDT by raven]
Originally Posted By ADTECHARMS: You mean the Premium paid for a defined benefit as with any other insurance? Granted it is mandatory, but this is what it is, a premium for the Social Security Payments, or for the Medicare depending on which you are reffering to. So in other words you do propose taking from someone else and giving to the "Less Fortunate" Because if they don't put in, someone has to and guess what, it is going to be the filthy rich who earned there money rather than the "less fortunate" who use the government to steal it for them.
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Well, I would prefer that no one puts in at all, the whole program be scrapped, and everyone who had put faith in the huge Social Security Ponzi scheme get what they paid in, maybe a little more. I fully believe the wealthy and high earners are entitled to keep as much as they can of what they earn. Redistribution to the "less fortunate" appalls me. Do you know who Donna Brazile is? She was Gore's campaign manager. I heard her on CNN this weekend say that the tax cut makes her feel like "Someone stealing my credit card" [shock] It's truly nauseating how liberals and socialists feel like they are entitled and owed the money you earn. But by the same token, the low earners and the poor deserve to keep what they earn by their efforts too. Dividends are double-taxed, but so too are the wages of workers. Not just by sales taxes but interest income, payroll taxes, etc. Why the focus on dividend income?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 12:48:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:05:12 PM EDT
So Raven, you're saying being a socialist is ok, if the economy is not stellar? A socialist is a socialist is a socialist. It works against those of us who do pay taxes. TXL
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:08:46 PM EDT
That article has got to be one of the largest piles of stinking dogshit I have ever laid eyes on. I am almost stunned that it was even printed in the US. It looks like something right out of a Pravda editorial circa 1971.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:40:42 PM EDT
sorry but i am NOT a socialist and not a democrat but i have to agree with Raven. i do not trust big business to do the right thing. Tax cuts need to be given to middle-class america not to the rich.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:43:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By thejokker: sorry but i am NOT a socialist and not a democrat but i have to agree with Raven. i do not trust big business to do the right thing. Tax cuts need to be given to middle-class america not to the rich.
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So you support government redistribution of wealth? Take from the rich and give to the middle class?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 1:55:34 PM EDT
it looks like re-distribution of wealth from the middle-class to the wealthy to me... until we legislate a tax reduction this money is tax revenue. we are going to redistribute the majority of the money to the most wealthy? why "give" this money to people like bill gates or ted turner/jane fonda. make them earn it. if you give it to the middle-class they will spend it... the wealthy will earn it...
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 2:37:33 PM EDT
OK, lets try to get at least on thing straight, and stop talking like class-warfare liberals. TAX CUTS DO NOT GIVE ANYONE ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!! To imply this also implies that all the money in the US is the governments and they allow us to have what we have whether it be $1 or $1,000,000. All a tax cut does is allows someone who earns money to actually keep that money rather than have it confiscated by the government, which then after taking a healthy chunk mostly redistributes it to whomever the choose. If I remember correctly about 1/3 to 1/2 of the budget is entitlments, that is taking from one individual and giving it to another. Once again all a tax cut does is: ALLOW SOMEONE TO KEEP MORE OF THERE OWN MONEY!!!!
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 2:50:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 2:51:46 PM EDT
BTW, I went and posted on this guys website asking some interesting questions. Here is the link http://forum.howstuffworks.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=gendiscussion One of these days I might actually find out how to make them active.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 2:56:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ADTECHARMS: BTW, I went and posted on this guys website asking some interesting questions. Here is the link [url]forum.howstuffworks.com/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=gendiscussion[/url] One of these days I might actually find out how to make them active.
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There ya go!
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 3:31:59 PM EDT
Once again all a tax cut does is: ALLOW SOMEONE TO KEEP MORE OF THERE OWN MONEY!!!! "Another" thing a tax cut does is reduce the money to pay for things roads, schools, the military, the space program etc. etc. the object of the tax cut is to stimulate the economy not to allow people to keep their own money because that is the right thing to do. how will allowing the top percentage of american's keep billions of dollars help the nation overall?
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 4:02:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 4:13:01 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 4:13:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 4:15:04 PM EDT by raven]
Originally Posted By TxLewis: So Raven, you're saying being a socialist is ok, if the economy is not stellar? A socialist is a socialist is a socialist. It works against those of us who do pay taxes. TXL
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OK.....where did I say anything like that? I swear, it's like you guys aren't even reading anything I posted. I'm about to give up with you guys, it's like trying to talk to a pig. I suggest maybe the middle class and working people, rather than large investors get a tax break, and I get all this contradictory hoo-hah thrown in my face that I want to redistrubte the wealth, and that the people whose taxes I want to cut dont pay taxes in the first place, which just isn't true.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 4:17:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 4:47:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 4:54:56 PM EDT by Merlin]
Raven, I read your posts and I have a hard time believing you have a degree in economics. The concept is simple: If a $500B tax cut in proposed, then by simple mathematics a large part of that tax cut is going to go to large corporations and wealthy individuals SINCE THEY PAY BY FAR THE MAJORITY OF TAXES IN THIS COUNTRY. I believe the numbers go like this: the top 10% wage earners pay 75% of the taxes in this country. The top 50% pay over 90% of taxes. Therefore, if you want to concentrate on just the "working people", then your tax cut is only going to be about $50B max. Not nearly enough to get the economy going. All this talk about cutting "working class" first and then corporations and wealthy people plays directly into the liberals hands for several reasons mentioned above. Its been mentioned before, but for those of you who don't get it yet: TAX CUTS DON'T "GIVE" ANYTHING TO ANYBODY!!!! For those of you who don't think that you have any dividends or are not going to be affected by a dividend tax cut, either don't understand 401K's or don't have one. Both are bad for your future retirement. BTW: A $500B tax cut over 10 years represents only about 5% of the estimated taxes taken in by the Government over the next 10 years. Its not such a big number anymore is it? No flames intended. Merlin
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 5:24:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By thejokker: Once again all a tax cut does is: ALLOW SOMEONE TO KEEP MORE OF THERE OWN MONEY!!!! "Another" thing a tax cut does is reduce the money to pay for things roads, schools, the military, the space program etc. etc. the object of the tax cut is to stimulate the economy not to allow people to keep their own money because that is the right thing to do. how will allowing the top percentage of american's keep billions of dollars help the nation overall?
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You make an error in logic. Your assumption is that only the government is involved in building roads, schools, the military, the space program, etc. Look at a road project next time you see it. The hardware involved, the men working - all private companies. Private contractors build schools. Private contractors build the equipment and create the uniforms for the military. Private contractors manufacture for the space program. It is simple: If the government has the money, it has NO POTENTIAL to produce anything in the private sector. If there is a choice between permitting companies to keep money, or paying it to the government in taxes, guess which I would choose? Government may direct a great many private contractors toward a common goal, but that money is STILL not producing as much as it could be. Which one adds fuel to the economy? Guess who gets or keeps a job because the money remains in the private sector? Distrust of private companies is another matter entirely. I have a coworker who believes that all companies take their profits and deposit them in a Swiss bank account. I guess he doesn't notice when new buildings are built by private companies, or when factories are expanded, or when interaction between two or more companies creates a new product. Are you permitting your distrust of private companies become a trust of the government? Tread carefully!
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i think the error in logic is that big business will act in the common good instead of profit (this is not a bad thing; this is what they are suppose to do). even though i disagree with his tax plan i trust president bush to act in my interest more then enron/worldcom/michael dell. if a politician screws me over i can at least vote/ campaign against. if business is bad because your customers do not have enough money it will not help the economy as a whole to give tax relief to business. it's the customers that need the help... a tax cut for the wealthy will only increase the difference between the rich and everyone else... thats a re-distribution of wealth from the middle-class to the rich.
Link Posted: 5/12/2003 6:02:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2003 6:14:19 PM EDT by Magnus357]
thejokker, Your logic is still flawed. First of all, you must realize that corrupt corporate action is the exception not the rule. Private industry falls under MUCH more strigent regualtions than our own government does. The economic profit of a coporation is only a temporary phenomenon. Of course in a year of a large tax cut their "profits" will be higher because the government will allow them to keep more of their money. These corporations do not just put this money under their beds or into some bank account. We are talking about LARGE sums of money. One doesn't keep large sums of money in a liquid state. It's dangerous and actually makes them less money. Corporations will invest their increased profits into the market or into more capital for their business. This is what helps the economy. Keep in mind that the government produces nothing. Everything the company buys or invests in is from the private sector. When they invest it helps bring up the revenue of smalls companies. Everyone either works for a company, owns a company, or works for the government (not including welfare low lifes here); therefore, when large companies invest or buy from the company Joe Shmo works for it helps bring up the revenue of his employer, which increases Joe's job security and might even increase his salary as the market value of the company increases. Those who work for the government get the shaft because the government is not run like a business therefore doesn't really gain from economic investments. As I said before, the economic profit they recieve will begin to dissappear. This is not because they are wasting the money. It is because they enlarge the company, which increases cost, but raises over all profits. What does this equate to? Bolstering the economy. But if you really do believe that the owners of business can do no good then I'm not going to convince you. Just keep in mind that typically what is good for the company is good for its owners. Giving money back to the populous that mostly spends and doesn't invest does little to nothing to help the economy. The money you'll get back by direct middle class tax cuts will more than likely have much less purchasing and investing power than the large sums corporations receive. I know it's nice to get your money back from our extremely wasteful government; however, the name of the game here isn't personal gratification it is overall economic improvement. - Matt
Link Posted: 5/13/2003 4:01:30 AM EDT
From above: a tax cut for the wealthy will only increase the difference between the rich and everyone else... thats a re-distribution of wealth from the middle-class to the rich. Where in the world do you guys get this drivel???? Ok, follow along now, read very, very slowly: A TAX CUT DOES NOT GIVE MONEY TO THE "RICH"; IT ALLOWS THE "RICH" TO KEEP MORE OF THEIR OWN MONEY. There is no "redistribution" there is nothing taken away from anyone else, it allows people like you and me and the "Rich" to keep more of their own money. Its obvious some of you guys have either flunked math or logic classes, or both, in your past. Or you've just read too many liberal newspapers and can't get this crap out of your heads. Wake up. Merlin
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