Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 9/27/2004 11:55:58 AM EDT
link to original thread

Ok guys here is the deal one of the Wisconsin guys who goes to UW-madison asked about the ramifications of openly carrying on or around campus, he was told by the campus assistant CoP

As you mentioned the short answer is that
possession of any firearm, concealed or
in plain view, is prohibited on university
property. Carrying a firearm in plain view
in the City of Madison would indeed get
you cited for Disorderly Conduct or worse
depending upon other factors.

Here is the response from Blanchard who is then DA

> > Mr. A,
> >
> > Thank you for your interest in the topic of how to reduce
> violence
> > in the
> > campus area, which is a big challenge. This office, the Dean's
> > Office, UW
> > Police, the Madison Police, the circuit court and municipal
> > judges, and city
> > officials are all keenly interested in strategies to prevent
> these
> > incidentswhere possible, and to respond strongly and effectively
> > when they do occur.
> > I encourage you to explore education efforts to increase safe
> > behaviors in
> > the dorms and apartment buildings and on the streets around
> > campus.
> >
> > Turning to your specific area of interest, I don't accept what
> > seems to be a
> > premise in your question. Open carry of dangerous weapons in
> the city
> > (including the campus area) generally would be, in my view, "out
> > of the
> > ordinary," and possibly disturbing for others, depending on the
> > location,who is present, the manner of carry, the weapon(s)
> > involved, suggestions of
> > mental illness or substance abuse, suggestions of a specific
> > "target" for
> > the weapon use, etc. I don't think one is going to get much
> > argument from
> > anyone that a person walking toward Bascom Hall with a nickle-
> > plated .38, or
> > a respondent with a domestic abuse or harassment injunction
> > lurking around
> > the petitioner's apartment building with a holstered pistol,
> > should attract
> > law enforcement attention on the double. In contrast, the
> > apparent hunter
> > or farmer carrying a long gun out in a field on the far west
> side
> > of the
> > city is likely to disturb only the deer, the rodent, or the tin
> > can that is
> > the target. I take you to be asking about the non-officer
> walking
> > alongLangdon Street with a holstered gun.
> >
> > Should police officers typically respond to that person, and
> have
> > a DC
> > ordinance violation or criminal charge available depending on
> the
> > facts? I
> > think yes. That is because someone carrying a firearm has a
> > purpose in
> > carrying the weapon, and that purpose is to use the weapon in
> some
> > manner,if only to display it. We know from stalking and other
> > behaviors that
> > display can itself be an intentional and highly abusive threat.
> > How can
> > police find and deter stalkers, abusers, and the dangerously
> > mentally ill or
> > inebriated if they cannot make inquiries of those who take the
> > unusual step
> > of openly carrying a firearm? But even short of the stalker,
> > abuser, or
> > delusional or intoxicated person who actively seeks to upset another
> > identified person or persons, the law recognizes the social harm
> > in conduct
> > that tends to provoke a disturbance in others, whether they are
> > strangers to
> > the subject or not. So I believe it is fair law enforcement
> > inquiry to ask:
> > What is the intended use of this lethal weapon, is it legitimate
> > or lawful?
> >
> >
> > This is not an overreaction to guns, in my view; I would have
> the same
> > reaction to someone carrying an exposed (unsheathed) knife of
> the
> > sort used
> > to injure people. As I say, on the other hand, if the average
> > citizen saw
> > someone carrying a long gun or a hunting knife outside city
> > limits, I think
> > as a general rule that citizen would not be similarly concerned or
> > disturbed, since one can readily imagine safe and non-disturbing
> > reasons for
> > someone to do that.
> >
> > My untested assumption is that the above views are generally
> > shared by the
> > vast majority of Dane County's residents, regardless of their
> > specific views
> > about, or familiarity with, guns or gun laws. While a majority of
> > residents' "feelings" should not determine the law, to a large
> > degree what
> > we consider "disorderly" is a community standard and is heavily
> > contextual(e.g., naked folks at Mazomanie beach are not, in my
> > view, disorderly, but
> > walking naked down State Street probably would be). And
> > regardless of my
> > personal views, under our system of justice what matters in the
> > end would be
> > the opinions of 12 Dane County citizens, since we have a strong
> > jury system
> > that is available to set community standards and prevent
> > overreaching or
> > oppressive prosecutions.
> >
> > The campus and surrounding neighborhoods are places where: many
> people> gather in close quarters; alcohol and substance abuse
> often run
> > high, and;
> > sophomores sometimes predicatably enough act sophomoric. In
> > addition, on
> > top of all that, there are too many people (students and non-
> > students) who
> > see the campus environment as a fertile one for committing
> crimes
> > such as
> > sexual assault, domestic and/or dating violence, robbery (armed and
> > unarmed), other physical violence, and property crimes that can
> be
> > highlydangerous, such as burglary. I think the police and this
> > office are
> > obligated to consider the social costs and risks of introducing
> > firearmsinto this environment in deciding who to lawfully
> question
> > and who to
> > lawfully charge with open carry of dangerous weapons in the form of
> > disorderly conduct.
> >
> > Finally, for what it is worth to you, I believe your question is
> > largelyacademic. I cannot recall a "close call" disorderly
> > conduct for weapon use
> > or possession referred to this office, either on campus or off.
> > It might
> > have happened on occasion, and could happen tomorrow, but in any
> > case we
> > have not seen any trend of these in recent years.
> >
> > Again, I wish you the best in any efforts you can make to
> increase
> > safetyfor the campus community, and this office would be happy
> to
> > help with
> > referrals or suggestions on any other initiatives in this area.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Brian Blanchard

There is more at the linked thread above you have to read it from the third post up though.

Basicly what i'm getting out of this is that while wisconsin's constitution recognises the individual right to keep and bear arms, the laws and the enforcment of those laws by some members of the LE community create a defacto ban on any type bearing arms for defense/security/ protection.

Right to keep and bear arms. SECTION 25. [As created
Nov. 1998] The people have the right to keep and bear arms for
security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose.
[1995 J.R. 27, 1997 J.R. 21, vote November 1998]

So as Adrian points out in one of his letters

I understand neither of us is a Supreme Court justice, and we may be getting
a little deep into this conversation - but it seems to me that in a case
where no crime was committed, other than a weapon being carried (either
concealed or in plain sight), something has to give, either the DC charge,
CCW charge, or the "right to bear arms for self defense" clause in the state
constitution. How can one exercise that right if there are different,
competing laws that in essence, make one's technically legal actions,

So what I'm wondering and what Adrian is also wondering is, is there a conficlt between the no ccw law and the state constitution, created by the simple fact that the DA and the assistant chief of police said that yes one would in fact be arrested and charged for DC for openly carrying a gun(which is totaly 100% LEGAL in wisconsin), not only on campus but in the city of Madison as well. One can not legaly CCW here, our only option for carrying a firearm for security or defense is to openly carry it, however now were being told that in at least one place even openly carrying a firearm will get you arrested for DC and charged as well. Does that not constitute an infringment of not only the second amendment RKBA but also the states RKBA amendment as well?

And what type of standing if any would one have to file a suit on this issue, because it obviosly is a consitituional issue.

Sorry if this is a little all over the place. But if anyone has any good ideas or info could you let me know either post it in this thread or the linked one. Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:11:57 AM EDT
Of course it's a conflict You probably do have a case. Good luck in getting an attorney to take it to court for you
Top Top