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Posted: 8/15/2004 9:10:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:07:43 AM EST
Sigh. The Neutral Observer will start it off.

The Neutral Observer was surprised by the emphasis on grappling and close-in work with the large swords.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:54:59 AM EST
Cool. The ARMA has done a lot to dispell some of the myths regarding European martial arts.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:45:26 AM EST
People who refer to themselves in the third person have serious mental problems.


George doesn't like that.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 11:54:38 AM EST
Good post. Thanks.

The other thing about late middle-ages combat that seems ignored is the apparent speed with which some of these moves were done. Last year the History Channel showed a history of edged weapons (""Axes, Swords and Knives"? or something like that).

The section on swords included a demonstration by two men who had extensively studied Medieval writings and pictures of combat in the 14th and 15th Centuries, especially. They demonstrated many half-sword techniques, folding into the mix a variety of pommel strikes and throws. The quickness of the action was astounding; I’ve seen slower lightweight boxing matches.

Personally, I think the best version of the fighting sword was the “cut and thrust” sword that lasted well into the 17th Century. Essentially, it is a basket-hilted broadsword, usually with a sharp but rounded tip. An example of this from the movies includes the basket-hilt “Claymore” used in “Rob Roy.”
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:12:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Amicus:
Good post. Thanks.

The other thing about late middle-ages combat that seems ignored is the apparent speed with which some of these moves were done. Last year the History Channel showed a history of edged weapons (""Axes, Swords and Knives"? or something like that).

The section on swords included a demonstration by two men who had extensively studied Medieval writings and pictures of combat in the 14th and 15th Centuries, especially. They demonstrated many half-sword techniques, folding into the mix a variety of pommel strikes and throws. The quickness of the action was astounding; I’ve seen slower lightweight boxing matches.

Personally, I think the best version of the fighting sword was the “cut and thrust” sword that lasted well into the 17th Century. Essentially, it is a basket-hilted broadsword, usually with a sharp but rounded tip. An example of this from the movies includes the basket-hilt “Claymore” used in “Rob Roy.”



The speed and motor control needed to pull off some of those moves in response to a thrust, of all things, is incredible. Especially considering that most of those counters involve trapping the sword and throwing your opponent. Can you imagine trying to perform the one where you pin your opponent's thumb with your blade and use it as a pivot point? Even at half-speed, it would be tough.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:14:02 PM EST
There you go with that 3rd person stuff again
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:29:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By MrClean4Hire:
There you go with that 3rd person stuff again



The Neutral Observer only broke out of it once because some things are difficult to convey in the third person. It did not signify a new trend.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:30:12 PM EST
TheNeutralObserver needs to drop the goofy shtick.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:31:10 PM EST
Swords, gentlemen, swords.

Discuss.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 5:38:07 PM EST
Interesting article. I think Eurpoean Combat in general is overlooked by many who pay more attention to the nifty armor but portray the warriors themselves as little better than brutes (while the Samurai are of course magical masters of combat). The knight was a warrior trained since childhood in combat and I'm sure would be more than a match for the vast majority of comparable warriors from around the globe.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:07:07 PM EST
The deadliest swordsmen in mankind's history are the Chinese with their jians and the Europeans with their rapiers. The armored knights would have an advantage over the rapier, but without armor, a swordsman armed with a rapier would prevail over a knight armed with a broad sword.

If you want to see "lightning fast" action, take a look at the techniques used by the Chinese and Europeans using their jians and rapiers respectively. If you blink, you are going to get cut.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:10:44 PM EST
A couple of really sweet ninjas would wipe them out
in a few minutes.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:18:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Neutral_Observer:
Sigh. The Neutral Observer will start it off.

The Neutral Observer was surprised by the emphasis on grappling and close-in work with the large swords.



Cajun47? is that you?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:23:00 PM EST
Actually Europes real Advantage was the sundry list of styles and arts.

As far as the rapier comment, Inertia is just as deadly and was used to great effect with a variety of heavy swords to hammers and mauls...

Not that Im a huge defender of the tree-clearing technique I just recognize it works...

At the End of the day the warrior who wins is the one with the most practice and luck.

Link Posted: 8/16/2004 8:53:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By ARDunstan:
A couple of really sweet ninjas would wipe them out
in a few minutes.



Mall ninjas or regular pirate hating ninjas?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 6:58:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Katana16j:
Actually Europes real Advantage was the sundry list of styles and arts.

As far as the rapier comment, Inertia is just as deadly and was used to great effect with a variety of heavy swords to hammers and mauls...

Not that Im a huge defender of the tree-clearing technique I just recognize it works...

At the End of the day the warrior who wins is the one with the most practice and luck.




Don't get me wrong, I never said that the knights with broad swords were not effective fighters. Those guys had various techniques in their disposal. They also need to know how to fight against various weapons at all types of tactical disadvantages. All I am saying was with everything being equal, a swordsman armed with a rapier would overcome a knight armed with a broad sword in an unarmored duel.

I definitely agree with your last statement.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 2:12:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 3:10:23 PM EST by NattyGuard]
Medieval warriors did indeed use the edge of their swords for slashing blows. I submit a portion of the Bayeux Tapestry for your perusal:

http://www.hastings1066.com/pics/tap33.jpg
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 2:36:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By NattyGuard:
Medieval warriors did indeed use the edge of their swords for slashing blows. I submit a portion of the Bayoux Tapestry for your perusal:




It's certainly possible. If The Neutral Observer remembers correctly, sword design evolved with armor design, and the thrusting swords were initially popular due to the brittleness of the metal involved, then as metal improved, cutting swords became the norm. After the Crusades, it was realized cutting blades weren't effective against plate armor, and sword design began changing again, with swords having longer, narrower tips, eventually evolving into the rapier.

Or, the artisan making the tapestry could be the middle ages' equivalent of Hollywood making a movie with gunplay. No way to really tell.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:01:48 PM EST
The Bayeux tapestry was created by women, who at the time were not the most involved in combat. However, I believe that you need to look at the type of armor being depicted: coats of mail and shields. Thrusts from a sword would be easily defeated by the shield, additionally, thrusting from a horse was _always_ a bad idea. If you hit the target you are going to have to leave the sword behind, or stay behind with the body of the guy you just skewered. A lance would break when properly stuck, or could be dropped when a proper hit was made.

OIW, seeing a cut from a horseman would not be out of the ordinary, even against mailed opponents.


Jame Retief
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:05:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 3:07:32 PM EST by DOW]

Originally Posted By NattyGuard:
Medieval warriors did indeed use the edge of their swords for slashing blows. I submit a portion of the Bayoux Tapestry for your perusal:

www.hastings1066.com/pics/tap33.jpg



I was in Bayeux back in Feb. Didn't have time to see the tapestry although my hotel was literally spitting distance from it. Oh well

BTW, I like your writing style, The_Neutral_Observer. Keep up the 3rd person thing - it's a unique Arfcom persona.
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