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Posted: 7/17/2008 8:32:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 4:47:45 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]
Like most of you I really enjoy the "Interesting Firearms" posts that Old_Painless periodically does. I decided to do one myself after acquiring what I think is a very interesting firearm: the Microtech Small Arms Research STG-556.

The STG-556 is one of two US manufactured Steyr AUG clones now available on the domestic market. I put one on backorder with distributor RSR GROUP back in February and finally received the excited call from my sales rep in late June.

The STG-556 is built around a "bullpup" configuration receiver, with the magazine behind both of the shooter's hands, resulting in a net overall length of just 27 inches. No parts are compatible with the original AUG, which is just as well since there aren't any AUG barrels or other parts being currently imported anyway. For example, spare magazines for the STG ran me $32 brand new (dealer price)-- 20 year old used AUG mags at CDNN are $39. So the lack of mag/parts compatibility isn't a factor for me.

Compared to my (wife's) 11.5 inch barreled SBR AR and my 8.5 inch barreled SBR Krinkov, the 16 inch barreled MSAR looks like this:


Obviously, for shooters who live in NFA-unfriendly states and are looking for a compact carbine, the MSAR may prove a very tempting buy. But the small size of this rifle becomes much more apparent when compared with full size rifles like a 20 inch AR and full size AK74:


And, of course, old battle rifles such as the FAL, G3, or the venerable Garand simply dwarf the MSAR:




So its really short and looks like something from a sci-fi movie. But how does it shoot? Today at lunchtime I took the shorty AR and the MSAR out to the range to compare them in the CQB role. Both rifles were fitted with EOtechs and the AR was fitted with a forward pistol grip, to make the ergonomics as similar as possible. Each rifle was assigned a "terrorist" silhouette target at 25 yards, and I blazed away with 55 grain PMC ammunition in rapid fire. Very scientific!

The AR went first.


I engaged the target with rapid single shots, followed by doubletaps, followed by "Mozambiques"--a doubletap to the chest and single shot to the head.


Two 30 round magazines were expended, with these results. This EOtech actually belongs on my M4 carbine and wasn't sighted in for the SBR. Thus the rifle shot a bit to the left, but the shot pattern is what I was most interested in anyway.


Next, the STG was put through its paces.


Same drill--rapid single shots, double taps, some triple taps, Mozambiques.


Here are the results on the left-hand terrorist after expending two magazines of 40 rounds each (they hold 42 but meh, PMC ammo comes in 20 round boxes). This EOtech has been sighted in for the MSAR, so the headshots fell properly.


Using footage taken by my law office intern (thanks Jack!), who volunteered to be pelted with spent casings, I compiled the following video comparison of the two drills. Don't forget to click on the "watch in high quality" option below the video.

LETS ROCK

The MSAR shoots very well and has run flawlessly for its first 250 rounds. The balance of a bullpup is very, very different from that of a standard configuration rifle, with all the weight in the back and a muzzle that instantly turns wherever you do. Perhaps because of the weight distribution, the gun feels like it weighs the same whether empty or with a full 42 round mag inserted. The trigger is weird, it breaks at the beginning of the pull and then has alot of overtravel, but with the rifle locked into my shoulder I don't feel like the overtravel affects my practical combat accuracy that much. Ejection is erratic, with the gun spewing spent casings in about a ten foot square area, but it doesn't mangle its brass and it has run 100% thus far so I'm not going to complain.

Felt recoil shooting the MSAR was noticeably less than felt recoil shooting the 11.5 inch AR15, despite the fact that the MSAR weighs less. I have no explanation for this, but its true.

For a detailed look at the rifle I thought I'd do something a bit different from what Old_Painless usually does. I took the rifle down and took closeups of its components after exactly 250 rounds had been put through it with no cleaning. I cleaned the rifle when it first arrived (unnecessary but hey, I was excited) and it hasn't been cleaned since. So the following photos are of the rifle's componentry after a quarter of a case of PMC 55 grain ammo had been fired through it without cleaning. I was surprised at how clean the gun remained internally.

My MSAR came with a "Jadgkommando" style flash hider instead of the earlier "tulip" shaped flash hider. I haven't shot the gun at night so I have no idea how well it does at hiding muzzle flash. I haven't shot the gun without the hider installed so I have no idea if it functions as a muzzle brake. Behind the flash hider, to the right of the barrel, is the 3-way adjustable (normal, emergency, off/grenade) gas port and the gas piston, which are attached to the barrel. The pistol grip can be folded forward by simply pulling down on it, like the original AUG.


The gun features a cross-bolt style safety with white markings on the right side. For a right handed shooter, the trigger finger can easily push the safety in to the left.


Doing so exposes red markings on the left side of the safety.


The receiver is a work of investment cast art. The 9 inch picatinny rail is held in place with three large bolts, which are themselves held in place with small set screws, which came fully torqued and Locktited from the factory. Red Locktite is also apparent on three tapped holes in the right side of the reciever, where a side rail can be (and will soon be) mounted.


The receiver features a broad, flat feed ramp which is not split into two smaller feed ramps like the AR (or the original AUG for that matter). Pretty clean considering the circumstances, in my opinion.


The charging handle is located on the left. It can be placed into a recess and folded up to be flush with the reciever, an arrangement reminiscent of HK roller locked rifles.


The rear area of the buttstock contains two controversial features which MSAR borrowed from the AR15. A forward assist button resides over the disassembly latch, and a bolt hold-open release resides over the mag well.


Most knowledgeable AR shooters dismiss the forward assist as a useless thing, and I tend to agree. However it doesn't get in my way while shooting and doesn't seem complex enough to break or anything. Its just along for the ride as far as I'm concerned. I might train myself to manipulate the bolt hold-open release after inserting a fresh magazine, but pulling back on the charging handle works just as well and is a gross motor skill, so meh.

Pushing a button mounted on the reciever towards the centerline of the gun while simultaneously pulling clockwise on the forward pistol grip will release the barrel from the receiver. It helps if you pull back just a bit on the charging handle first. The barrel is a thing of beauty, with engraving in places you can't see with the barrel installed in the gun, and beautiful fluting and contours. Bore and chamber are chrome lined, barrel twist is 1/8. The many small, finely machined teeth are beautiful to look at.




With the barrel out, pushing the cross-bolt style dissassembly block thingy to the right allows the receiver to be removed from the stock, like so:


This leaves the bolt and carrier to slide out of the buttstock. The left side interfaces with the charging handle and the serrations for the forward assist are evident. The right side is the operating rod and interfaces with the gas piston mounted to the right of the barrel (in the background).


The bolt and carrier are nicely engraved (again with little cartouches everywhere it seems) and surprisingly clean after 250 rounds of ammunition. I didn't get a good photo of the bolt face but it would have been an undramatic photo anyway.


Pushing on a recessed button located in the buttpad allows the rear sling swivel to be pulled out, revealing a long pin which holds the fire control group and buttpad in place.


The fire control group comes out as a self contained unit and is ENTIRELY made of plastic aside from its pins and springs.


This caused me much concern when I was researching whether to buy this gun. Fortunately a friend of mine owns a well abused post-sample AUG which has fired thousands of rounds in full auto over the years, and he showed me that its fire control group is also all plastic. The only wear mark on his FCG was a little clean spot on the hammer. Lets hope the MSAR copy holds up as well. After 250 rounds without cleaning, so far it looks like this:


Careful inspection of the bolt/carrier group reveals a plastic extension underneath the firing pin. When the hammer falls it hits this extension at or near the same time as the firing pin reaches the end of its travel, thus saving the polymer hammer from a harsh plastic-to-metal contact. Hey, I told you it was an interesting firearm....


The magazines appear to be well made. MSAR claims they are stouter than original AUG mags in various ways. I don't know about all that but the 42 rounders feed great and survive being dropped in gravel just fine. I won't be running over them with a pickup truck or anything like that--its a rifle magazine, I don't really care if it can be used as a rock climbing carabiner or whatever, ya know?


Just for kicks and giggles I did a slow fire group of ten rounds at 25 yards. Here are the results--except for the flyer low and to the right you can nearly cover up the group with a quarter. Not fantastic but honestly, the barrel was very hot, there was sweat in my eyes, and I was using a red dot sight--I'll call it good for now.


I made another short video of reassembling the gun after taking it down for the still photos. Its super easy, and the high quality of construction is apparent as you field strip and reassemble the rifle.
Like a big LEGO set

So, in the spirit of Old_Painless, "what did we learn?"

1. If you want an NFA sized gun without a tax stamp, this one might be for you.

2. Some people say the USA doesn't have any small businesses making quality products for Americans to buy anymore. Those people are wrong.

3. This rifle costs as much as two cheap AR15s or three cheap AK47s. I have three ARs and four AKs and none of them have the build quality of this gun. Sometimes its not about price, but about value. In any case, have you priced any pre-89 AUGs recently? Holy toledo...

4. I can't decide whether to get a 1-4x optic like a DMS-1 or just start saving for an ACOG for this thing. But the EOtech will do for now, for CQ purposes at least.

5. Shooting things is fun.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:38:17 PM EST
great post!

tighten up your mozambiques
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:40:05 PM EST
In
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:55:27 PM EST
My next gun is the AUG or the PS90

Great write up Duke!
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:14:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 9:16:45 PM EST by AcidGambit]
Blah
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:27:05 PM EST
Thanks for the great write up. First time I've seen anything detailed about this rifle. Looks pretty cool. But, judging by the cheekweld, and the fact that I'm a Southpaw, I probably won't be in any hurry to get one.
Again, thanks for taking the time to do it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:31:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 9:32:10 PM EST by Rogue-Sasquatch]
Thanks for the awesome writeup DukeNukem! I'm just getting back into the money with my career, and I'm seriously considering an HBAR version of one of these as soon as that variant hits the market. Even moreso now that I've seen one inside and out.




Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
You can't shoot for shit... You should have spent the money on a class instead of a MSAR.

Maybe you were goofing around, but if I was going to post a review of a rifle, I would have atleast done my best to shoot a nice group. Fuck, if I shot that bad, I'd probably just put the target at 5' and shot the group.

Goddamn.

..and who the fuck SBRs a fixed carry handle rifle. You can pay the $200 tax, but you can't buy a decent upper. Fail fail fail...


How's that old post go?

"Somebody pissed in your cherrios, and swiped your manners while you were savoring the taste?"


Seriously, post your own MSAR group and show him how to 'shoot decently'. No hole punching allowed.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:33:52 PM EST
quanto mas?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:48:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By whomper:
Thanks for the great write up. First time I've seen anything detailed about this rifle. Looks pretty cool. But, judging by the cheekweld, and the fact that I'm a Southpaw, I probably won't be in any hurry to get one.
Again, thanks for taking the time to do it.


I don't know if you can move the ejection port over, but if you can, there may be a fix for you. If you watched the Weaponology show where the covered the Spetznatz, the man that they interviewed showed some of the techniques used for the AK system which could probably be adapted to any rifle where your controls will be on the outboard side of the weapon. You still need to break cheek weld for mag changes though.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:55:52 PM EST
Well i just added that gun to my list of things that i must buy. There goes my bank account for the next year. By the way very nice review.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:04:12 PM EST
Great Thread!
Looks like a dream to shoot!
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 4:56:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 5:05:46 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:

Originally Posted By whomper:
Thanks for the great write up. First time I've seen anything detailed about this rifle. Looks pretty cool. But, judging by the cheekweld, and the fact that I'm a Southpaw, I probably won't be in any hurry to get one.
Again, thanks for taking the time to do it.


I don't know if you can move the ejection port over, but if you can, there may be a fix for you. If you watched the Weaponology show where the covered the Spetznatz, the man that they interviewed showed some of the techniques used for the AK system which could probably be adapted to any rifle where your controls will be on the outboard side of the weapon. You still need to break cheek weld for mag changes though.


I should have mentioned, the ejection port can be swapped over but a left-handed bolt is needed to do so. The bolts are available but they are pricey. Honestly if I was a lefty I would give serious consideration to the FS2000 which is very ambidextrous to begin with (even if it does feel like pointing a largemouth bass downrange).

Oh, and a few things about my shooting ability.
1. I'm a short, fat, athsmatic attorney, not a commando. I know this.

2. This was my second time shooting the MSAR, ever, and the ergos are quite different, I'm still getting used to them. I didn't bring any mag pouches, so I flubbed the AR mag change as well when the magazine fell all the way into my pants pocket and had to be fished out. Meh. With both rifles the goal of the drills was to shoot as quickly as possible and still hit the target, as I would if I were actually engaging bad guys at close range. I can and do shoot tighter groups, but not that quickly.

3. Tennis elbow and a torn supinator muscle in my right arm really are hurting my shooting ability right now. And its supposed to take up to a year to resolve, argh. At least shooting rifles doesn't physically hurt like shooting pistols does.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:04:04 AM EST
Very nice write up.

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:07:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By peekay:
Very nice write up.


+1

I am waiting for this one.

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:08:23 AM EST
great post, thanks!
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:08:39 AM EST
Thanks for the writeup


Could you shag the spent brass and mail it to me
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:10:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:13:03 AM EST
Nice write up for a neat rifle.

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. Congratulations O_P and OP.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:16:30 AM EST
Nice review...

Damn, that ejection port looks really close to your face. Anything wrong with this anyone can think of?
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:20:32 AM EST
Nice write-up. Ignore the haters.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:24:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By whomper:
Thanks for the great write up. First time I've seen anything detailed about this rifle. Looks pretty cool. But, judging by the cheekweld, and the fact that I'm a Southpaw, I probably won't be in any hurry to get one.
Again, thanks for taking the time to do it.


Super review Duke! and nice pics.

whomper: Cheekweld is fine but does take a little getting used to. As far as being southpaw goes, well let's just say there is no better rifle/bullpup for a lefty. It (the AUG, was originally designed to be ambidextrious) You just need a left hand bolt face and it takes one minute to change out.

I liked them so much I bought all three MSARs to go with my AUGs.



Welcome to the addiction...

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:26:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 5:26:58 AM EST by JIMBEAM]
Can these be switched to eject out the other side for lefties?

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:27:54 AM EST
1. Cool write up, thanks for taking the time

2. That gun does NOT look lefty friendly.

3. Shooting is fine, those are good groups for shooting as fast as you can re-acquire. it's not a benchrest drill. Good work Duke!
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:30:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By DeltaAir423:

Originally Posted By whomper:
Thanks for the great write up. First time I've seen anything detailed about this rifle. Looks pretty cool. But, judging by the cheekweld, and the fact that I'm a Southpaw, I probably won't be in any hurry to get one.
Again, thanks for taking the time to do it.


I don't know if you can move the ejection port over, but if you can, there may be a fix for you. If you watched the Weaponology show where the covered the Spetznatz, the man that they interviewed showed some of the techniques used for the AK system which could probably be adapted to any rifle where your controls will be on the outboard side of the weapon. You still need to break cheek weld for mag changes though.


I should have mentioned, the ejection port can be swapped over but a left-handed bolt is needed to do so. The bolts are available but they are pricey. Honestly if I was a lefty I would give serious consideration to the FS2000 which is very ambidextrous to begin with (even if it does feel like pointing a largemouth bass downrange).

Oh, and a few things about my shooting ability.
1. I'm a short, fat, athsmatic attorney, not a commando. I know this.

2. This was my second time shooting the MSAR, ever, and the ergos are quite different, I'm still getting used to them. I didn't bring any mag pouches, so I flubbed the AR mag change as well when the magazine fell all the way into my pants pocket and had to be fished out. Meh. With both rifles the goal of the drills was to shoot as quickly as possible and still hit the target, as I would if I were actually engaging bad guys at close range. I can and do shoot tighter groups, but not that quickly.

3. Tennis elbow and a torn supinator muscle in my right arm really are hurting my shooting ability right now. And its supposed to take up to a year to resolve, argh. At least shooting rifles doesn't physically hurt like shooting pistols does.


You were hitting the badguy.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:30:39 AM EST
Good work. Thanks for taking the time to write this up for us.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:33:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 5:48:14 AM EST by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:35:09 AM EST
nice work, would love to get one but right now it's outside of my price.

Page 2 ownership.

-JTP
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:39:06 AM EST
nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag.

And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really.

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:47:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag.

And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really.



I have added a new criteria to any future rifle purchased...

"Oh? It shoots 1/2 MOA? BUT....can you BUTT STROKE a fool with it?!"





Great write up. Thanks for sharing. Were it lefty friendly I probably would have bought one by now.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:59:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 6:00:54 AM EST by pwr2al4]

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Nice review...

Damn, that ejection port looks really close to your face. Anything wrong with this anyone can think of?


From what I understand if the gun decides to blow up on you then you are tremendously fucked.
(I own a bullpup myself so, meh.)


Originally Posted By JIMBEAM:
Can these be switched to eject out the other side for lefties?



It comes with a cutout for the left side ejection port, but for whatever reason, Microtech decided to screw everyone by charging something like $250 for a left handed bolt. Why they don't just offer to include the bolt of your choice with the original purchase of the rifle and then offer the other one as an additional accessory I will never understand.

I finger fcked one while I was down in GA and I must say it is a very nice stick. But since I live in NY and the rifle only accepts proprietary mags and I am a lefty, I decided to go with the FS2K instead.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:02:31 AM EST
The only thing NOT left handed friendly is the safety which is simple to operate backwards (as most leftys have done their whole life) and the charging handle is on the left side. Other than that, it is the perfect left hand weapon (with the left hand bolt face)

I am a lefty and have AUGs and STGs. As soon as TPD offers their AXR in a lefty (soon), I will have one of them too.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:05:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 6:06:00 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]
With 42 round mags and a rifle that runs just fine, I question the need for using it as a club. Were I in reality a Super Secret Squirrel Sniper Recon Navy Seal Green Beret GSG-9 Spetsntatz operative, I'd probably just do a backflipping hatchet attack instead of trying to buttstroke the bad guys.



Oh yeah, one more thing. About "who the hell SBRs a carry handle AR"... that SBR ususally wears CAR-15 handguards and looks like one of the guns from the bank heist scene in "Heat." But I built it for my wife to shoot and it goes into whatever configuration she wants. If she wants a flattop she can tell me and by Monday it'll be a flattop. You can bag on me, but don't bag on my wife's choice of AR configurations. Grrrr.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:05:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:10:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Blackwind:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag.

And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really.



I have added a new criteria to any future rifle purchased...

"Oh? It shoots 1/2 MOA? BUT....can you BUTT STROKE a fool with it?!"





Great write up. Thanks for sharing. Were it lefty friendly I probably would have bought one by now.


I have had a long held belief that a battle rifle should always be able to apply a dose of correction to someone's chin. I have .5 MOA precision bolt action rifles that could really buttstroke someone but I'd prefer to keep my zero on those.

I just have never been in to those space age looking rifles just my personal taste though.

*** To me*** a battle rifle is any rifle you'd keep next to you as a defensive of offensive firearm. So it is a pretty loose term for me.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:17:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 6:17:38 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
I have had a long held belief that a battle rifle should always be able to apply a dose of correction to someone's chin. I have .5 MOA precision bolt action rifles that could really buttstroke someone but I'd prefer to keep my zero on those.

I just have never been in to those space age looking rifles just my personal taste though.

*** To me*** a battle rifle is any rifle you'd keep next to you as a defensive of offensive firearm. So it is a pretty loose term for me.


Anyone who pays $1500 for a rifle and spends enough money learning to be proficient with it, and then, with that rifle in hand, chooses to apply deadly force with it as a club instead of using it as it as a FIREARM, needs to have their head examined.

If blunt force trauma excites you so much you could have saved yourself alot of money and just kept an old aluminum baseball bat under your bed instead. But each to his own I suppose.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:17:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 6:18:07 AM EST by wgjhsafT]
Saw one of those in person for the first time yesterday. Pretty nice rifle.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:18:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
With 42 round mags and a rifle that runs just fine, I question the need for using it as a club. Were I in reality a Super Secret Squirrel Sniper Recon Navy Seal Green Beret GSG-9 Spetsntatz operative, I'd probably just do a backflipping hatchet attack instead of trying to buttstroke the bad guys.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/MolonLabe/spetsnazdf2.jpg

Oh yeah, one more thing. About "who the hell SBRs a carry handle AR"... that SBR ususally wears CAR-15 handguards and looks like one of the guns from the bank heist scene in "Heat." But I built it for my wife to shoot and it goes into whatever configuration she wants. If she wants a flattop she can tell me and by Monday it'll be a flattop. You can bag on me, but don't bag on my wife's choice of AR configurations. Grrrr.


But you aren't one so why would you reduce the rifle's capability. Close in fighting is a strength of a long arm not a limitation. To each his or her own but I truly think a rifle that you may use to defend yourself should be of a type and shape that lends itself well to close in fighting.

I am not Rambo talking or trying to be an ass, I appreciate a fine rifle and it seems to have some great qualities. I just realize that there is in fact a reason why we trained for it in the Marine Corps. There are in fact instances where a bad guy may need a tune up. Hell even the stupid flash suppressor on my AR is pointish and called an impact weapon. Not by my design or specific choice but it seems like a good idea to me.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:24:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By pwr2al4:

It comes with a cutout for the left side ejection port, but for whatever reason, Microtech decided to screw everyone by charging something like $250 for a left handed bolt. Why they don't just offer to include the bolt of your choice with the original purchase of the rifle and then offer the other one as an additional accessory I will never understand.



When I spoke with Tony Jr. of Microtech at the NRA Convention, he stated that they will sell a "lefty" with only the left-hand bolt face and for the same price. Also the additional left-hand or the right-hand bolt face is about $185.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:31:37 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 6:33:08 AM EST by BadShovelhead]

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
I have had a long held belief that a battle rifle should always be able to apply a dose of correction to someone's chin. I have .5 MOA precision bolt action rifles that could really buttstroke someone but I'd prefer to keep my zero on those.

I just have never been in to those space age looking rifles just my personal taste though.

*** To me*** a battle rifle is any rifle you'd keep next to you as a defensive of offensive firearm. So it is a pretty loose term for me.


Anyone who pays $1500 for a rifle and spends enough money learning to be proficient with it, and then, with that rifle in hand, chooses to apply deadly force with it as a club instead of using it as it as a FIREARM, needs to have their head examined.

If blunt force trauma excites you so much you could have saved yourself alot of money and just kept an old aluminum baseball bat under your bed instead. But each to his own I suppose.


Now is that necessary? I don't understand how you are so proficient with this but don't realize that a rifle regardless of how reliable you think it is, may on occasion be needed for close in fighting and if you cannot understand that this is not an issue of use it as a firearm or use it as a club than perhaps you need to reevaluate your knowledge.

The Marine Corps doesn't teach close combat and I didn't get qualified as a LINE instructor when that was the style du jour, because all you need to be safe is a reliable and accurate rifle, and tons of cool gear.

Perhaps you need to spend more money on training to understand the full and total application of a rifle. And a little discipline too, you are getting all huffy over my personal preference. lol.

ETA are those knives just for cutting your steak at the training camp or would they be used as a backup for that fancy rifle? I rest my case.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:43:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 6:57:34 AM EST by -Duke-Nukem-]

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
But you aren't one so why would you reduce the rifle's capability. Close in fighting is a strength of a long arm not a limitation. To each his or her own but I truly think a rifle that you may use to defend yourself should be of a type and shape that lends itself well to close in fighting.

I am not Rambo talking or trying to be an ass, I appreciate a fine rifle and it seems to have some great qualities. I just realize that there is in fact a reason why we trained for it in the Marine Corps. There are in fact instances where a bad guy may need a tune up. Hell even the stupid flash suppressor on my AR is pointish and called an impact weapon. Not by my design or specific choice but it seems like a good idea to me.


I think the type and shape of this rifle does lend itself well to close in fighting. I think you and I seem to have very different definitions of what that means, and its ok to disagree about it. For what its worth, I'm really enjoying this conversation.

I have a problem with "buttstroking" because it requires me to turn the rifle around and point the business end at myself while deliberately impacting the stock as hard as possible on a hard surface (which is hopefully your opponent's skull, but might be a brick wall for example if you miss). Does anyone else see a problem with doing that with a potentially loaded rifle? I know young Marines don't, but they also charge into fixed machinegun fire on command.

What I've been taught (and I wasn't ever a Marine so go ahead and call me out on it, but you live in CA so you need your head examined anyway) is that if someone tries to grab your rifle from you, the proper response is to keep control of the rifle using the same grip as you had before, and violently strike them in the chest with the muzzle end (which hurts like a bitch even compared to the buttstroke, because you have the same force being imparted through a smaller surface area now regardless of what shape your flash hider is) while pulling the trigger and sending a round through the impact area at point blank range.

Even as a civilian I believe this is a better technique than "buttstroking". Since an attempted gun grab is lethal force, you must respond in kind. Why point the barrel at yourself? Why put the rifle in an orientation whereby an enemy can grab the part with the trigger if he dodges your strike? Maybe if I'd been a Marine line instructor in the buttstroking class I'd understand better, but as a puke civilian I just don't.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:57:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 6:57:59 AM EST by Old_Painless]
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:06:41 AM EST
great write up!!! im holding out for the 9mm version, i have too many .223s
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:07:02 AM EST
I'm sure all these guys talking shit about your gun not being able to "butt stroke" anybody ALL HAVE BOYONETS ON THEIR RIFLES since they are so worried about what they will do when they run out of ammo.

As far as I know, Duke isn't in/going in to combat anytime soon. And I'm sure he has plenty of rilfle that meet your "butt stroking" requirements.

STFU.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:11:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
nice job but as I have said if you can't buttstroke someone nicely with it not my bag.

And yes I realize you could technically buttstroke someone with it but... Well no not really.



Duke, I wouldn't worry too much about a guy from CA obsessed with "buttstroking"...

Simple fix...offer to "buttstroke" him in the chin with your new toy and when and if he comes to, ask him how "nice" it was.

This was a review of a gun...not of Marine CQB techniques.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:13:23 AM EST
I was wondering about those... Do they come with a 20 inch barrel as well?

Excellent write up! You get soup!

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:15:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
I was wondering about those... Do they come with a 20 inch barrel as well?

Excellent write up! You get soup!



Why yes they do. I'd like a 20 inch barrel for it, if they are ever available seperately (and not on super insano backorder like the rifles are) I want to pick one up.

Ratworx has 20 inch models in stock right now. I think they are sexy.

www.ratworxusa.com/firearms.html

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:17:03 AM EST
Looks like it would make a great paddle if you were ever stuck up shits creek without one.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:18:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By rexydg7:
Looks like it would make a great paddle if you were ever stuck up shits creek without one.


Yeah, hehe. But we would need an FS2000 on the other side of the canoe or it would just go around in big circles.

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:24:49 AM EST
You need to go buy an FS2000 and do a write up on that one also!

Nice job, and just ignore the space shuttle door gunners, otherwise they are going to butt stroke you

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:25:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 7:34:26 AM EST by WildWilli]
There are a few 20" barrels on guns out there available. To date, I think I have the only one that was not sold on/with a gun but they are getting more made and it is a slow process. There will also be a 24" heavy barrel with the bi-pod and no flash hider available soon if it is not out already. And they make a dedicated suppressed barrel too.



MSAR
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:28:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 7:30:56 AM EST by rexydg7]

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By rexydg7:
Looks like it would make a great paddle if you were ever stuck up shits creek without one.


Yeah, hehe. But we would need an FS2000 on the other side of the canoe or it would just go around in big circles.

www.impactguns.com/store/media/fn/FNH_CB_FS2000_Right.jpg




ETA:.. I know for a fact that M-16/M-4 buffer tubes do not handle "buttstroking" too well. Kinda weak for that kinda use.

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