Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
11/9/2018 9:21:38 PM
Posted: 10/26/2018 8:57:44 PM EST
Took part in a big scenario today with our local Dept of corrections, PD, 3 or 4 fire groups, the military and our local EMS transport agency.

Learning that not everyone runs ICS the same way was worth the entire day. DOC is so stringent that once there was adversity that took them out of their check off sheets, it got interesting. Medical Responders didn’t quite want to tell the guys with the fake guns “no” when they tried to tell them what to do when ems already had assignments. The biggest thing was everyone learning to play together because in reality, we do when the situation happens. Our area doesn’t do nearly enough interagency trainings and I bet we are not alone.

Always take good things away instead of negatives.
Link Posted: 10/26/2018 9:29:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By sefus:
Took part in a big scenario today with our local Dept of corrections, PD, 3 or 4 fire groups, the military and our local EMS transport agency.

Learning that not everyone runs ICS the same way was worth the entire day. DOC is so stringent that once there was adversity that took them out of their check off sheets, it got interesting. Medical Responders didn’t quite want to tell the guys with the fake guns “no” when they tried to tell them what to do when ems already had assignments. The biggest thing was everyone learning to play together because in reality, we do when the situation happens. Our area doesn’t do nearly enough interagency trainings and I bet we are not alone.

Always take good things away instead of negatives.
View Quote
we've been doing them shortly after Columbine. Best way to train for mass casualty/active shooter etc.

J-
Link Posted: 10/29/2018 7:43:46 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jjc155:
we've been doing them shortly after Columbine. Best way to train for mass casualty/active shooter etc.

J-
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jjc155:
Originally Posted By sefus:
Took part in a big scenario today with our local Dept of corrections, PD, 3 or 4 fire groups, the military and our local EMS transport agency.

Learning that not everyone runs ICS the same way was worth the entire day. DOC is so stringent that once there was adversity that took them out of their check off sheets, it got interesting. Medical Responders didn't quite want to tell the guys with the fake guns "no" when they tried to tell them what to do when ems already had assignments. The biggest thing was everyone learning to play together because in reality, we do when the situation happens. Our area doesn't do nearly enough interagency trainings and I bet we are not alone.

Always take good things away instead of negatives.
we've been doing them shortly after Columbine. Best way to train for mass casualty/active shooter etc.

J-
Got one coming up early this week that I am attending for our area, be interested to see what the discussion will be during the planning phase after this weekends events.
Link Posted: 10/29/2018 12:47:29 PM EST
It really just seems like it should all be common sense, no issues, but dang if you dont see quickly that the perspectives are very different. A big thing I observed was the law and ems sides did not have the same ideas on expectations. EMS figures law clears the area, escorts in to rapid triage and escorts the move out to a CCP and so on. Law, well they just kinda didnt know what the EMS side was going to do or how to interact with them. Ended up having EMS in an area that wasnt clear, no escort out or back in for the next round, comms were garbage as usual but no one switching to a secondary for triage or transport, everyone on the main channel even when a secondary was requested... all stuff that can and does happen so again, not criticizing, just stressing the importance of everyone learning to be on the same page.
Link Posted: 10/30/2018 11:56:45 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sefus:
It really just seems like it should all be common sense, no issues, but dang if you dont see quickly that the perspectives are very different. A big thing I observed was the law and ems sides did not have the same ideas on expectations. EMS figures law clears the area, escorts in to rapid triage and escorts the move out to a CCP and so on. Law, well they just kinda didnt know what the EMS side was going to do or how to interact with them. Ended up having EMS in an area that wasnt clear, no escort out or back in for the next round, comms were garbage as usual but no one switching to a secondary for triage or transport, everyone on the main channel even when a secondary was requested... all stuff that can and does happen so again, not criticizing, just stressing the importance of everyone learning to be on the same page.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sefus:
It really just seems like it should all be common sense, no issues, but dang if you dont see quickly that the perspectives are very different. A big thing I observed was the law and ems sides did not have the same ideas on expectations. EMS figures law clears the area, escorts in to rapid triage and escorts the move out to a CCP and so on. Law, well they just kinda didnt know what the EMS side was going to do or how to interact with them. Ended up having EMS in an area that wasnt clear, no escort out or back in for the next round, comms were garbage as usual but no one switching to a secondary for triage or transport, everyone on the main channel even when a secondary was requested... all stuff that can and does happen so again, not criticizing, just stressing the importance of everyone learning to be on the same page.
This is because the concept of EMS being in any place besides staging is a relatively new concept. Not all law enforcement are happy with it, either. Law is tasked with bringing immediate control to that particular situation. The ones that aren't actively hunting are supposed to be setting up safe areas to stage resources, prevent more intrusion, corral anyone leaving for investigation, and be extra eyes during the evolution.

Generating teams to escort EMS around... I have some ideas about how that materialized into the program, but it's not worth speculating on.

As law enforcement loses more and more scene control over to the EMA and various other entities / multi-agency command tents sprouting up, you're going to see more and more changes to how law enforcement interacts with the other elements at the scene.

I wanted to talk about this for a second:
EMS figures law clears the area, escorts in to rapid triage
Never, ever ever think for a second that anywhere in front of the police cars is a 'cleared area' until it is all over. You may already realize this, but I wanted to reiterate in case what you're learning isn't making it clear.

Law enforcement's number one priority in this specific type of incident is to close with and stop the killer(s). This is not like other types of incidents, and previous ways to handle this incident, which required a LOT of manpower and slow, deliberate cordon, search, clear AND HOLD of areas.

As the contact teams buzz through, there is a real and serious probability that there could be a lay-back, or that the initial assault was a come-on in order to funnel responders (like YOU) into a previously-established kill zone.

If you chose to sack up and go in, understand that you are in no man's land, and you should treat it like territory that remains at-risk until conclusively cleared hours later.

As far as the initial post, while I agree that multi-agency / multi-discipline training is generally a good idea, from my limited current perspective there simply isn't enough manpower to pull entire shifts off the street to go do these things, and I suspect it is the same from the EMS side, less so from fire.

Full scale exercises are very dangerous and laborious to plan out; this translates into costs most jurisdictions won't shell out, or it takes away from the jillion other taskings in the training budgets. Exercises that are limited in scope and reach usually have better outcomes; there are simply too many training points in a giant non-Federal exercise. Just getting everybody to walk down a common school or business would generate a lot of positive outcomes but that too appears to still be a rarity.

Interesting topic, though
Link Posted: 10/31/2018 1:34:22 PM EST
We had a giant interagency (fire) high rise fire drill this year that was a giant cluster. I got put in charge of the fire floor and no one even told me!
Link Posted: 11/3/2018 9:15:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2018 9:19:34 PM EST by tac45]
This has kind of been my problem with the latest response model. I work both fire and LE so I have a good understanding of both sides of the coin.

I am all for going in and doing my job and treating patients as soon as possible. However, I fully understand the risks I take with entering that kind of environment.

I feel as though the typical fire and EMS responder are being falsely lead to believe they will be completely protected in these situations and that’s not the case. You have to ask, if you have the scene secured then Why do I need this body armor and helmet? And shouldn’t I be getting a gun too?
Link Posted: 11/6/2018 8:39:28 PM EST
I'm still chuckling at the idea of interagency training...

Around these parts, going out and talking to (or hanging out with) people from other departments, or other first responders, is practically incomprehensible. The idea of actually training with other agencies is so far beyond the event horizon of foreseeable possibilities as to have passed the point of absurdity and reached full-on incomprehensibility. Training comes from going to clusterfuck scenes and trying to sort out what happens next. Debriefings are called bitching to your zone partner later on..

Someday it might be nice to have the organizational defense in depth to be forward-looking and plan for eventualities, rather than existing continuously behind-the-curve on reacting to events every hour of every day. There's money around, but no available manpower to allow training to occur. Training classes get cancelled, vacations get cancelled, not enough people to meet minimum staffing levels to enable such frivolities...

Enjoy what you have, gentlemen.
Link Posted: 11/9/2018 12:41:51 PM EST
That... sucks. I bet its not all that out of the norm though unfortunately.

My area is stressing the idea of everybody playing well together big time lately. Our immediate area has a bunch of different departments that all boarder up to one another and up until a couple of years ago, there was a lot of hurt feelings and animosity over who got what call and who go tot do what on scene. My specific district is a rural/urban interface of 560 square miles and we HATED working with DNR because of how they 'fight' wildfires. Then on mutual aid calls, the city has very little training or experience with things like MVA's so we didnt want them in on an extrication because it just wouldn't go well. Of course they run paramedics and we are just lowly EMR's and EMT's, so any medical they would try to shove us out (which makes sense to me but we have the manpower when they dont so there is a flip side). Anyway I think the idea of best customer service no matter what is finally starting to come around. If the neighboring district can be to a car crash a lot faster than we can because it happens on the edge of a boundary line and they have a station closer than we do, then by all rights they should be added to the call no matter where the budget for that call is coming from.

I dont know if its a top down mentality but in working with our recruit classes and at my station, I'm sure doing my part and starting to see the mentality the benefits of training with our partner agencies. I rode with the city of a brush fire a month or two ago and had to remember that they only have a couple hundred gallons of water to use where as my normal rigs have 750. That changes strategies, but it also makes you understand their side of things a little more.

As to the drill I had talked about above, we (EMS) had an advanced RTF type team go in with law to do an initial triage. those guys were armored and armed. After that though is when the regular triage crew went in. It was known to be a 'warm' zone for lack of better terms, so understanding its not yet a 100% searched and secured area is important, but I guess that just needs to be restated to the crews before going in because they were not expecting it to be as warm as it was.
Top Top