NO WAY

FUBAR

I thought those on the muslim apologist side liked to say we had muslim "brothers" on our side dieing with us every day. Watching the tape of the riot and burning of the British tanks the other day was, or should be, the nail in coffin of Iraq. Pull the troops out now, and if Iraq gets too uppity in the future, bomb the hell out of it with B52s...

The place is being held together by duct tape...and I'm sick of paying for the billions and billions of said duct tape...

Quoted: "We are aware of rogue elements in the Iraqi police service. The trick that we have to pull off now with the Iraqi authorities is to identify those elements, to weed them out and to reinforce the good parts of the Iraqi police service."

Maybe we can send Serpico in there...wait, nevermind, he fled the US...

Quoted: He said Iraq now had "a very scrupulous, very meticulous vetting procedure" to "clean our security forces, as well as stop any penetration in future from the insurgents or the terrorists".

This part makes me laugh!

I don't care what they do, they will have enemy infiltration. How do they really think they are going to screen out infiltrators before they start acting out their true motives?

It would be nice if you could screen out anyone with "Ter" written on their foreheads, but it just isn't that simple. These guys will hide their motives until they are in a position to carry them out. Could be a week later, a year later or even a decade later.

You think we should employ lie detector tests on new recruits as a part of the application process.

Ask the following questions:

1. Are you in favor of a free, democratic Iraq?

2. Do you hate the new Iraqi government or coalition forces?

3. Have you ever engaged any US forces, any free Iraq forces or would you consider it?

Anyone who passes the test should then be sent into training. Anyone who fails should be shot in the head on the spot.

Nothing new here. We had the same problem in Vietnam and a hundred other cold war hotspots.

Quoted: You think we should employ lie detector tests on new recruits as a part of the application process. Ask the following questions: 1. Are you in favor of a free, democratic Iraq? 2. Do you hate the new Iraqi government or coalition forces? 3. Have you ever engaged any US forces, any free Iraq forces or would you consider it? Anyone who passes the test should then be sent into training. Anyone who fails should be shot in the head on the spot.

I hate to break it to you but there isn't a real shred of scientific evidence to show that lie detectors actually detect lies with any reliability. A news show some years ago staged an event where one of their employees took some valuable item. Then they called in four different lie detector "experts" to find the guilty party. In every case, the lie detector experts picked the wrong person as the liar. In every case, they picked the person that they had been told was the prime suspect, not the real person.

If you are ever asked to take a lie detector test, refuse and ask for a lawyer immediately.

If anyone is surprised, please slap yourself.

Iraqis are animals and need a dictator to keep em in check. There is no way those peole can self rule. This is like trying to teatch pigs to talk. It just aint goinna happen.

Quoted: Nothing new here. We had the same problem in Vietnam and a hundred other cold war hotspots.

Yeah, that's true. If anyone watched The Ten Thousand Day War they saw interviews with all kinds of prominent Vietnamese officials who were working closely with the US forces while secretly opposing us and feeding information to the enemy.

So someone tell me again why this will not end up like Vietnam.

Quoted: You think we should employ lie detector tests on new recruits as a part of the application process. Ask the following questions: 1. Are you in favor of a free, democratic Iraq? 2. Do you hate the new Iraqi government or coalition forces? 3. Have you ever engaged any US forces, any free Iraq forces or would you consider it? Anyone who passes the test should then be sent into training. Anyone who fails should be shot in the head on the spot.

I wouldnt want thoe who pass to be trained. This is how they think and why  a million of these people are not worth one of ours.

Here be some true answers that will pass.
1. Yes as long as only my religious sect is ruling,
2. Yes because my religious sect is not in total control
3. Yes becuase anyone who is not my religious sect is in my way to achieving my first goal

Aren't there "infiltraitors" in every police & security force? We have had plenty of spies in US security forces. Isn't expecting the Iraq security forces to be 100% secure form those that would aid criminals unrealistic?

Quoted: Aren't there "infiltraitors" in every police & security force? We have had plenty of spies in US security forces. Isn't expecting the Iraq security forces to be 100% secure form those that would aid criminals unrealistic?

Yes, but there's a danger that IRaq's forces could be so heavily infiltrated that they're no longer functional.

Quoted: Quoted: Aren't there "infiltraitors" in every police & security force? We have had plenty of spies in US security forces. Isn't expecting the Iraq security forces to be 100% secure form those that would aid criminals unrealistic? Yes, but there's a danger that IRaq's forces could be so heavily infiltrated that they're no longer functional.

Especially considering that there are three distinct groups of people who have hated each other far longer than the US has been around and who have a hard time seeing their common interests.

So someone explain again how this will not end up like Vietnam.  

Did anyone see the History Channel special on the rise of Saddam? The way he took power was first he got himself in charge of their police. Then one day he simply surrounded the legislature with his guys, walked in and started asking who the traitors were. Anyone named as a traitor was taken into the hallway and shot immediately. Saddam videotaped the whole thing as he sat there laughing, telling jokes, and smoking his cigar. That was the end of any goverment but Saddam.

Assuming we could stop the civil war between three groups that have hated each other for too long to count, what would we do if one of Saddam's cousins pulled the same trick again as soon as we are gone? Are we going to fly all those tanks and guns over there again to re-establish democracy?

Anyone got a good answer? I haven't run across anyone with a good answer yet.

Honestly, are the people on this board functional retards?

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US who know the ground truth have been saying this for some time.  Most recently, Cincinnatus also said the Iraqi Police were fucked up.

PEOPLE:  THE ARMY IS NOT THE POLICE.


POLICE:  Hired from local population, remain in local vicinity - with all the tribal and other baggage tha entails, to include the ability for local dickheads to threaten family members.

ARMY:  Hired at the national level, often serve far from home.  Less tribal ties to local area, little chance of family at risk.

This is NOT news.  Police forces here are notoriously corrupt, inept, and infiltrated by extremists.  That pretty mush describes every thrid world country, however.  I swear, so many of you read the news with such fucked up bias filters you aren't even sure what you are reading.

The operation we just conducted in Tal Afar is a classic example - the police were fucked up and worthlessly in bed with the fuckheads.  The Army had to clean house.

If you just cannot comprehend how the enemy works here, read up on Mafia operations in the US, up to and including the internal warfare, protection racket, and populatio intimidation.  Then, add religious extemism to the mix.  This is not an enemy that ignorant, knee-jerk reactions can overcome.

However, as long as we can crush the organized insurgent infrastructure, and build effective military forces, the terrorists can't stay in power in any organized, effective way.  With time - and it is happening now - as the strength of the central government is increased with effective military forces, more na dmore people will be willing to speak out against the terrorists, and their hold on the local polic forces will dissipate.

For the anti-Muslim morons:  Muslims ARE fightin side my side us every day.  FYI, when the terrorist element moved into Tal Afar after the last purge, EVERY LOCAL IMAM FROM EVERY LOCAL MOSQUE WAS KILLED OR KIDNAPPED, AND REPLACED WITH EXTREMIST FUCKHEAD TERRORISTS!  WHat this means is, MUSLIMS who did NOT SUPPORT the "Insurgents" were KILLED.  GET THIS THROUGH YOUR RIDICULOUSLY THICK SKULLS - WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH ISLAM!

Carry on...

Quoted: Honestly, are the people on this board functional retards? EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US who know the ground truth have been saying this for some time.  Most recently, Cincinnatus also said the Iraqi Police were fucked up. PEOPLE:  THE ARMY IS NOT THE POLICE. POLICE:  Hired from local population, remain in local vicinity - with all the tribal and other baggage tha entails, to include the ability for local dickheads to threaten family members. ARMY:  Hired at the national level, often serve far from home.  Less tribal ties to local area, little chance of family at risk. This is NOT news.  Police forces here are notoriously corrupt, inept, and infiltrated by extremists.  That pretty mush describes every thrid world country, however.  I swear, so many of you read the news with such fucked up bias filters you aren't even sure what you are reading. The operation we just conducted in Tal Afar is a classic example - the police were fucked up and worthlessly in bed with the fuckheads.  The Army had to clean house. If you just cannot comprehend how the enemy works here, read up on Mafia operations in the US, up to and including the internal warfare, protection racket, and populatio intimidation.  Then, add religious extemism to the mix.  This is not an enemy that ignorant, knee-jerk reactions can overcome. However, as long as we can crush the organized insurgent infrastructure, and build effective military forces, the terrorists can't stay in power in any organized, effective way.  With time - and it is happening now - as the strength of the central government is increased with effective military forces, more na dmore people will be willing to speak out against the terrorists, and their hold on the local polic forces will dissipate. For the anti-Muslim morons:  Muslims ARE fightin side my side us every day.  FYI, when the terrorist element moved into Tal Afar after the last purge, EVERY LOCAL IMAM FROM EVERY LOCAL MOSQUE WAS KILLED OR KIDNAPPED, AND REPLACED WITH EXTREMIST FUCKHEAD TERRORISTS!  WHat this means is, MUSLIMS who did NOT SUPPORT the "Insurgents" were KILLED.  GET THIS THROUGH YOUR RIDICULOUSLY THICK SKULLS - WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH ISLAM! Carry on...

That's true. Hell, just look at this nation! The New Orleans Police Department appeared to be infiltrated by thugs themselves. Remember the cops in that store who were doing more looting than the looters they were suppose to be stopping? LOL. Ever hear of the corruption in the LAPD?

There's always some bad apples in every police force. So I would not be surprised to hear of some in Iraq.

Quoted: Quoted: Aren't there "infiltraitors" in every police & security force? We have had plenty of spies in US security forces. Isn't expecting the Iraq security forces to be 100% secure form those that would aid criminals unrealistic? Yes, but there's a danger that IRaq's forces could be so heavily infiltrated that they're no longer functional.

Sunnis make up only 10 percent of the population.  Other then the Sadr followers on the Shiite side and some other extremist groups who all hate each other, the only really organized fight is the Sunni reactionaries and their supporters from other countries.  Army forces are predominately Shiite or Kurd - I doubt a terrorist sympathizing Sunni would be too successful at infiltrating.  They have a hard enought time as it is.  Pease tell me how such a small minority has any real chance long term - unless your read only the doom and gloom of the MSM?  

Quoted: WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH ISLAM! Carry on...

We are not at war against Islam, but for the large part Islam is at War with the west. Has been for some time.

also from your first hand experience, do you feel the Iraqi Army will ever be able to function on its own? Without the US doing the heavy part or without US support at all? I am hoping yes of course but tell us your feeling on that.

Quoted: However, as long as we can crush the organized insurgent infrastructure, and build effective military forces, the terrorists can't stay in power in any organized, effective way.

Well, as I see it, there are at least three distinct groups -- Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis -- who haven't liked each other since about the beginning of time. They all have people who would qualify as terrorists for their own particular cause. Then you throw in a bunch of foreign fools from Al Qaeda.

Then we have the history of how Saddam got into power.

So it seems to me that it is going to be difficult, at best, to suppress all those who are crazy enough to start shooting (assuming you could accurately identify them in the first place).  

Even if you did, how are you going to prevent one of Saddam's cousins from pulling the same trick Saddam did when he took over?

So far, I haven't seen any explanations for how we are going to accomplish all this, and protect against any future Saddams, that I thought were convincing. I grant you it is a noble goal, but nobody seems to be able to explain very well how it is going to work out in our favor. You can be the first.

Quoted: Quoted: WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH ISLAM! Carry on... We are not at war against Islam, but for the large part Islam is at War with the west. Has been for some time. also from your first hand experience, do you feel the Iraqi Army will ever be able to function on its own? Without the US doing the heavy part or without US support at all? I am hoping yes of course but tell us your feeling on that.

Gut feeling?

Their biggest enemy is

1)  Anti-Muslim Americans on the "right" side of the political spectrum providing propaganda fodder to the insurgency.

2)  Fucktard Americans on the "left" side of the political spectrum providing propaganda fodder to the insurgency.

3)  American forces pulling out too early.  This war is ours to lose, and the terrorist KNOW their position is untenable.  Right now, we are still trying to build fighting forces.  We have barely begun to TOUCH building any kind of logistical infrastructure for the Army.  We have a long row to hoe, as they say.  Momentum is everything, and the American press and blogosphere (right and left wing) is the worst thing, since it only encourages the enemy and discourages the Iraqi forces.  

Despite Cindy Sheehans comments to the contrary, we are all that is preventing a Yugoslavia style breakdown right now.  Time and patience is the key, something the fast-food generation in the US has no concept of.

The comparison to Hussein rise to power is BS.  Hussein was a Sunni and rose to power in the Sunni power structure.  IMHO, The biggest real threat to democracy is a Shiite theocracy allied with Iran, whihc would come after wither a civil war of Stalin-type purges after we leave.  But, as I have written here before, Extremist Sunnis - Wahabbists - attacked us four years ago, not Shiites.  I don't see that as a real threat to the US, so I can live with that.  Maybe Damascus would then switch from covert to overt support of the insurgency.  Maybe other countries here would join in and take sides.  Maybe a middle-east wide inter-Islam war wouldn't be a bad thing.  It would take a lot of pressure off Israel, and definitely keep the suicide bombers preoccupied.  

Maye the new boundaries such a war would produce is what this part of the world needs.  Most of the problems in the Middle East and Africa stem from artificial boundaries drawn up by outsiders.

While I would prefer the Bush doctrine work, I could live with that alternative.  What I could not live with is us surrendering to the same idealogy of fanatical wahabbists that attacked the US four years ago this month.  These are the very groups (Zarqawi, et al) funding and inspring the enemy.

Quoted: Gut feeling? Their biggest enemy is 1)  Anti-Muslim Americans on the "right" side of the political spectrum providing propaganda fodder to the insurgency. 2)  Fucktard Americans on the "left" side of the political spectrum providing propaganda fodder to the insurgency. 3)  American forces pulling out too early.  This war is ours to lose, and the terrorist KNOW their position is untenable.  Right now, we are still trying to build fighting forces.  We have barely begun to TOUCH building any kind of logistical infrastructure for the Army.  We have a long row to hoe, as they say.  Momentum is everything, and the American press and blogosphere (right and left wing) is the worst thing, since it only encourages the enemy and discourages the Iraqi forces.   Despite Cindy Sheehans comments to the contrary, we are all that is preventing a Yugoslavia style breakdown right now.  Time and patience is the key, something the fast-food generation in the US has no concept of. The comparison to Hussein rise to power is BS.  Hussein was a Sunni and rose to power in the Sunni power structure.  IMHO, The biggest real threat to democracy is a Shiite theocracy allied with Iran, whihc would come after wither a civil war of Stalin-type purges after we leave.  But, as I have written here before, Extremist Sunnis - Wahabbists - attacked us four years ago, not Shiites.  I don't see that as a real threat to the US, so I can live with that.  Maybe Damascus would then switch from covert to overt support of the insurgency.  Maybe other countries here would join in and take sides.  Maybe a middle-east wide inter-Islam war wouldn't be a bad thing.  It would take a lot of pressure off Israel, and definitely keep the suicide bombers preoccupied.   Maye the new boundaries such a war would produce is what this part of the world needs.  Most of the problems in the Middle East and Africa stem from artificial boundaries drawn up by outsiders.

so how much time and how much patience will be required to get three groups of people who have hated each other for the last several hundred (if not thousand) years to get along?  (Noting that lots and lots of them don't seem to be terribly rational). (It seems to me that the time and patience explanation sounds a lot like the time and patience explanations in Vietnam.)

If the comparison to Saddam's rise to power is BS, then how do we prevent that from happening again? Or are you just assuming that it couldn't happen again? Noting, of course, that it already happened once.

And what do we do if we establish "democracy" and they elect some ayatollah, or another Saddam themselves?

I appreciate your point of view, but I haven't seen anyone yet with good answers to simple questions like these.