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Posted: 9/28/2004 2:42:19 PM EST
I'm doing my Master's Thesis and beginning my Lit. Review. I'm wondering if any and all of you guys could point me in the right direction. I need information, articles, books, etc. about the 21 foot rule. Google turns up whats all ready a part of this site. I'll check with Street Survival and the usual Officer Safety seminar types. ANY HELP is appreciated.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 2:53:43 PM EST
Try S.W.A.T. Magazine March 2004...titled Knife Attack! Rethinking the 21 Foot Rule

I believe you can download a .pdf version here... March 2004

MT

Link Posted: 9/28/2004 4:56:18 PM EST
I believe you're referring to the Tueller Drill.
Edged weapon assailant from 21 feet out, your sidearm is holstered, the assailant can close the distance and plant the knife in yer chest before you can come up onto target. It used to be 24 feet but was revised.
You can work the drill any number of ways; timed runs for "assailant" vs "shooter" OR have the assailant armed with a red marker, shooter holstered with a mock sidearm, and see who gets who first.


Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:56:25 PM EST
+1 on the Tueller Drill ; named for Off. Denny Tueller. I seem to remember some references in writings by Massad Ayoob... either "in the Gravest Extreme" or "The Truth About Self-Protection".
Mas feels strongly enough about it (or did, anyway) to run every one of his LFI-1 students through it and make them document the results. His big thing is the "judgement of a reasonable man" as a legal concept, and his feeling, as I recall, was that it lets you see that someone that far away is, and should be considered a threat, AND you documented that you have that knowlege beforehand. Your subsequent actions become more "defensible" in court. FWIW... I proposed it 15 years ago to BOP staff at Glynco through a warden we had and he was told ...1)we didn't have the time to add the drill, and 2) basically that ANY inmate outside a fence during an escape should be considered a threat at any distance. Good luck on the Masters. BTW... What is your thesis about? Stay safe
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:50:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 6:51:07 PM EST by ursus]
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 2:58:30 AM EST
i caught the SWAT mag article. Their training target system looks awesome.

I hoping to run an experiment with shooters and runners and measure distance covered by the time a second shot is scored on target, as well as stats on officer's two shot times fromt he holster. I'll probably have to break down the runners/assailants into endo/meso/ecto-morphic body types to satisfy my thesis committee.
I'm an LEO and I believe int he 21 foot rule. I hope to test/verify the validity of the 21 foot rule and add to the body of knowledge used to help officers win in court. Of course, I'll have to put my bais aside to get real conclusions. I just think it'll help LEOs out there.

i found a link to a Denver Post article that described an Ofc. shooting a disabled person that was weilding a 8-9 inch blade. Of course the public wants to hang the officer. I just hope this can help somehow.

I'm beginning my literature review and am having a hard time getting started.
Thanks for all the help so far and keep the ideas coming!

Stay safe!
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:56:16 AM EST
In reply to tango down, the denver officer, thanks to our mayor, chief,
and mang. of saftey, was gavien a 9 mo. suppendsion with out pay .
Had to bend down to raical presure do you know.
Denver LEOs are behind the
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 12:25:11 PM EST
Try this guy:
Jim Wagner Training
Calibre Press also has good info on edged weapons
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 12:55:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By MT_Pockets:
Try S.W.A.T. Magazine March 2004...titled Knife Attack! Rethinking the 21 Foot Rule

I believe you can download a .pdf version here... March 2004

MT




I actually red this at the 81 the other day. Great article... cool they used the approaching targets too so the officer could actually shoot
Link Posted: 10/1/2004 8:40:31 AM EST
During my academy, we used simunitions and rubber knifes and ran the drill.
We measured out 21 feet and them placed a sillouette target about 15 degrees to the right of where the "bad guy's" starting point would be. For safety reasons, the "officers" had to stand in one place....no moving and shooting. Everyone wore eye protection.

Standing in the interview stance with weapon holstered, each student waited to be attacked. As soon as the "bad guy" started charging, they had to draw and fire at the sillouette target. An instructor stood nearby to see if the student was "stabbed" before any shots are fired.

There were 17 students who took part in the drill. Almost half were "stabbed" before being able to draw and fire any rounds. Of the half that could, only about five of them were able to get any decent hits on the target. It was patently obvious that the "bad guy" had enough momentum that he could have stabbed everyone, unless he received a central nervous system shot.

It was a real eye opener for everyone.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:38:41 PM EST
Calibre press may have some info.

Link Posted: 10/4/2004 4:40:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By trippletap:
During my academy, we used simunitions and rubber knifes and ran the drill.
We measured out 21 feet and them placed a sillouette target about 15 degrees to the right of where the "bad guy's" starting point would be. For safety reasons, the "officers" had to stand in one place....no moving and shooting. Everyone wore eye protection.

Standing in the interview stance with weapon holstered, each student waited to be attacked. As soon as the "bad guy" started charging, they had to draw and fire at the sillouette target. An instructor stood nearby to see if the student was "stabbed" before any shots are fired.

There were 17 students who took part in the drill. Almost half were "stabbed" before being able to draw and fire any rounds. Of the half that could, only about five of them were able to get any decent hits on the target. It was patently obvious that the "bad guy" had enough momentum that he could have stabbed everyone, unless he received a central nervous system shot.

It was a real eye opener for everyone.



What's even scarier is that all of you were waiting and anticipating the charge. A test on unsuspecting individuals would be even worse
Link Posted: 10/5/2004 7:09:49 PM EST
I'll give you one better. Several years ago two of us tested several knife situation. The one that got my attention was at 8', with my weapon on target, I could not fire my pistol before I was stabbed in the chest. It got so bad that we were telling the other where we were going to stab and still could not stop the attack.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:47:49 AM EST
Absolutely.

Another drill we did that was an eye opener was during the shoot/don't shoot scenarios.

I was a roleplayer, pretending to be a psycho who was holding his shrink hostage during a home visit. The students did not know who was the doc and who was the patient and had no descriptions. They were just on a "welfare check" because the dock hadn't checked in.

I had a gun hidden underneath a couch cushion near the corner where I was standing (left hand/opposite the door). The doc/hostage was in the other opposite corner, sitting in a chair. Between us was a coffee table with some newspapers/magazines and a pistol (revolver).

I claimed to be the doctor and kept refusing to let the students into the room, or opening up the door to let them see anything...."because it would agitate my patient". I also started to act a little "off" (not that hard for me, hehehe

After a few minutes, I would let them look into the room and see the doctor and I admitted that they had "caught me"...and start acting even more "strange".

I would then get the students riled up by arguing with them and not following commands as they stood in the doorway (fatal funnel) about 10 feet away. I would get them so pissed off that they would start to get tunnel vision. I could tell, because they would look me in the eyes and their eyes not waver.
I would then say "Oh! my shoes are untied! I'll come out as soon as I tie my shoes!" And then I would kneel down to tie my shoe while yelling at them (because by this time they were screaming at me to stand up, raise my hands and turn around. )
I would look them right in the eye while I tied my shoe, but I would slowly reach with my right hand for the pistol hidden in the couch while still looking them in the eyes. As soon as I saw them glance at the gun on the coffee table I would pull the gun from the couch and fire three rounds (blanks) at them.

Out of 16 students, I got the drop on all but three. They never let themselves be put at a disadvantage that I could exploit.
Most of the otherr students drew and fired their weapons, but I had already fired mine at them. Some of them actually fell down because they tripped into the door frame as they tried to get out of the funnel. A couple just gave up without a fight

This really demonstrated why it is so important to watch someones hands and not their eyes.

People don't realize how quickly things can happen. Literally within a blink of an eye.



Originally Posted By thesacrifice:

Originally Posted By trippletap:
During my academy, we used simunitions and rubber knifes and ran the drill.
We measured out 21 feet and them placed a sillouette target about 15 degrees to the right of where the "bad guy's" starting point would be. For safety reasons, the "officers" had to stand in one place....no moving and shooting. Everyone wore eye protection.

Standing in the interview stance with weapon holstered, each student waited to be attacked. As soon as the "bad guy" started charging, they had to draw and fire at the sillouette target. An instructor stood nearby to see if the student was "stabbed" before any shots are fired.

There were 17 students who took part in the drill. Almost half were "stabbed" before being able to draw and fire any rounds. Of the half that could, only about five of them were able to get any decent hits on the target. It was patently obvious that the "bad guy" had enough momentum that he could have stabbed everyone, unless he received a central nervous system shot.

It was a real eye opener for everyone.



What's even scarier is that all of you were waiting and anticipating the charge. A test on unsuspecting individuals would be even worse

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:15:14 PM EST
A buddy of mine whacked a guy weilding a sword, who bailed out of a moving vehicle the begining was caught on car camera the ending (live cop dead bad guy) got caught on helicopter FLIR. My boy was running backwards fired nine .40 cal got 6 torso hits 2 arm hits bad guy chased him by my guess 30 yards before droping(he ran about 10 yards before catching rounds). It would be a complete pain in the ass but if you think actual shootings could help in your research I could get the tape and IA. Our agency trains heavy with simunations. We also whacked a double knife weilder in our damn station parking lot tried tazing him twice. Part of that was captured on time lapse security tape and a bigger IA file.
Don't fuck around with edged weapons in North Central Florida we will shoot the piss out of you. Again I don't know if case studies are of value in your research or if you are just doing the mechcanics of movment.
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 4:50:30 PM EST
i think the case with the sword weilder would be excellent to show my thesis committee. If anything, it'll drive home need for the research. there is not much academic / scientific research on this topic, so i think it'll be an uphill battle with the "halls of academia" types. There is a lot of info about the 21 foot rule / Tueller Drill in the Ofc. Safety realm, but I'm going to need more than a few SWAT articles.
I'll drop you an email with my addy, if you can get me any info on the sword corpse guy.


stay safe brother
Link Posted: 10/7/2004 5:51:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2004 5:52:33 PM EST by thesacrifice]
if someone wants to kill you theyll do it or atleast make a damn good attempt, the best thing we can do is practice officer safety and try to eliminate some of the gimmes for the badguys. Stay alert, be vigilant, and come home!

Link Posted: 10/7/2004 9:17:21 PM EST
So far my thesis statement is something to the effect of:

A study in the minimum safe distance at which a Law Enforcement Officer can engage, with a firearm, a "contact weapon" weilding assailant that will demonstrate how the current perception of an armed threat, in relation to distance from an LEO, is insufficient.


Hopefully this will help LEOs somewhere, academy, court, public opinion, etc.
I know I didn't invent this stuff, i'm just trying to contribute to the body of knowledge.

I'm finding a lot of stuff about jury's thinking that the attacker"only had a knife"
I'd hate to face a jury with a box of shit for brains!

Keep the ideas coming. You guys have been a great help!
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 3:53:43 AM EST
Many of us learned quite a bit with the sword weilder. Many of us would not have run backwards and just dumped rounds while moving laterally or the tact L. There is no doubt we would have been cut. The rounds simply didn't work fast enough. I'm telling you when you see the tape it looks like a fucking WW II bonzi charge i got your info it will be a while collecting all this shit I should be able to get the post mortem as well.

Later
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 6:40:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By deputygadget:
Many of us learned quite a bit with the sword weilder. Many of us would not have run backwards and just dumped rounds while moving laterally or the tact L. There is no doubt we would have been cut. The rounds simply didn't work fast enough. I'm telling you when you see the tape it looks like a fucking WW II bonzi charge i got your info it will be a while collecting all this shit I should be able to get the post mortem as well.

Later



Not an LEO here but wouldn't a pelvis shot be in order for that situation. I am asking this because I want to be an LEO one day and want to know as much as possible before then.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 1:05:49 PM EST
You shoot for center mass.....the way 99% of all cops are trained. It's very hard to move and shoot accurately at the same time.

If you ever get the chance, there are a couple of good "real life" shootout video's.

One is between the Kehoe brothers and a Ohio state trooper and a Clinton County sheriff’s deputy, in Ohio on February 15, 1997.

The other is a deputy in Texas going against a few hispanic drug runners....that happened shortly after the 1991 murder of Constable Darrell Lunsford (and he had seen the video...one of the first in-car videos to record a LEO murder).

There are others, but these are both very clear and you get to see most of the action. In both cases, the officers are shooting and moving to cover.
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 1:39:42 PM EST
black rifle fever-
Pelvic shots were taught by prominent trainers. Their logic was that breaking the pelvic girdle would slow/stop the attcker, as center mass shots may not reduce momentum.

Personally, I think its hard to hit a hunched over moving target intent on killing you, aiming for center mass. Obviously we will do more when faced with this scenario like: move and shoot, shoot & find cover and shoot, move offline while shooting, shooting, and SHOOTING. The only way to end an edged weapon attack is to make the suspect stop behaving in a life threatening manner. Best accomplished by shooting.

There is tons of info out there to learn prior to becoming an LEO. After you're on the job, keep learning and stay sharp!
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 1:55:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By tango_down:
black rifle fever-
Pelvic shots were taught by prominent trainers. Their logic was that breaking the pelvic girdle would slow/stop the attcker, as center mass shots may not reduce momentum.

Personally, I think its hard to hit a hunched over moving target intent on killing you, aiming for center mass. Obviously we will do more when faced with this scenario like: move and shoot, shoot & find cover and shoot, move offline while shooting, shooting, and SHOOTING. The only way to end an edged weapon attack is to make the suspect stop behaving in a life threatening manner. Best accomplished by shooting.

There is tons of info out there to learn prior to becoming an LEO. After you're on the job, keep learning and stay sharp!





Hey if there is a lot of info for me to learn then please point me in the right direction to find that info. I want to learn as much as I can before I even apply. Thanks
Link Posted: 10/9/2004 7:11:34 AM EST
there is a lot to being an officer, but since we are on a gun page, i'll suggest attending shooting courses like Gunsite and others. You will not only learn to shot, but learn about tactics and some law. take a martial art. not that your department will let you use any of that stuff, but it'll help when your at the academy learning the things they want you to know.

Then there is the boring things like being a people person, reading and writing, take an active role in your community. Hell, volunteer with kids, it all helps

go to the dept of justice and www.ncjrs pages and look at the research that is out there. the more you learn the better prepared you'll be when it comes time to test
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 7:55:44 AM EST
If you do take a martial art, try to take one that stresses taking control of the opponent.....like Aikido or JuJitsu, to name a couple. When you are fighting with someone as a LEO, you are always trying to wind up with them in a position that you can teke them into custody (i.e. in cuffs).
Nothing against Karate or Tae Kwon Do (or kick boxing type arts).....I think any martial art is worth checking out......but they don't are not as suited to LEO work. In the academy, yuo will most likely be taught joint locks and take downs that are taken from Aikido. If they also teach you some ground fighting, it will probably be stuff taken from JuJitsu (more specifically, "Brazilian" style).

Link Posted: 10/11/2004 2:45:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Blackriflefever:

Originally Posted By deputygadget:
Many of us learned quite a bit with the sword weilder. Many of us would not have run backwards and just dumped rounds while moving laterally or the tact L. There is no doubt we would have been cut. The rounds simply didn't work fast enough. I'm telling you when you see the tape it looks like a fucking WW II bonzi charge i got your info it will be a while collecting all this shit I should be able to get the post mortem as well.

Later



Not an LEO here but wouldn't a pelvis shot be in order for that situation. I am asking this because I want to be an LEO one day and want to know as much as possible before then.



We shoot for center mass only, to STOP THE THREAT, no offense but you sound like my mother? "Why couldnt they just shoot him in the leg or something" Just pulling your leg a little


Link Posted: 10/11/2004 4:40:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By thesacrifice:

Originally Posted By Blackriflefever:

Originally Posted By deputygadget:
Many of us learned quite a bit with the sword weilder. Many of us would not have run backwards and just dumped rounds while moving laterally or the tact L. There is no doubt we would have been cut. The rounds simply didn't work fast enough. I'm telling you when you see the tape it looks like a fucking WW II bonzi charge i got your info it will be a while collecting all this shit I should be able to get the post mortem as well.

Later



Not an LEO here but wouldn't a pelvis shot be in order for that situation. I am asking this because I want to be an LEO one day and want to know as much as possible before then.



We shoot for center mass only, to STOP THE THREAT, no offense but you sound like my mother? "Why couldnt they just shoot him in the leg or something" Just pulling your leg a little





I wasn't saying that to save the guy, I was saying that because from what I understand when someone is running to you the main thing is to keep distance between them and yourself. I know that eve with a direct hit in the heart a person can continue to move for a few seconds.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 12:08:11 PM EST
I talked to bud last night and burned the tape today to be mailed to ya. I was off in some of my estimates. Nine fired rounds 6 hits 5 torso 1 arm. I included the newspaper clips (not completely accurate) regarding the incident and the post mortem. If you can read it you can see the 3 of the .40s can to rest against the skin back of torso fully penatrating the body you can also check the distance involved by estimaiting the patrol car lengths from the airship clip. The offical paper is harder to get but will be forth coming this will include actual distances the empty brass giving ideas on when where rounds were fired.

It was a long way while being chased by a sword wielding idiot see what you think maybe post your comments I will continue to send the case file as it comes available.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:05:10 PM EST
Thanks a million. I think this case will really help me. Even though my thesis committee is made up of Law Enforcement professors, 2of them are still in the dark about the "tactical" side of things. I plan to use this case as an attention-getter, just so they know what an edged weapon attack is like. A lot of people think its unfair to shot a person "just cause they had a knife". It'll be hard for me to write this research with the layperson in mind.

Thanks for all your help. You'll get a copy of the thesis and some department patches (if you're into that) when I'm finished.

As far as posting comments here about the case, I might email comments to you first. As I stated before, I will only use the material for the thesis and show the tape to the guys on my shift, as training. Besides, we always like to see a bad guy get wacked, too.

Stay safe, and again thanks for all your help.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:34:40 PM EST
I just realized these video clips were once hosted on the internet for all to see for a while via newpaper web sight and are public record. SO it's not that much of a big deal. I don't think I mentioned this but there is a gap in the video footage the car cam gets the begining of the bonzi charge but the bad guy is past the camera angle in a second or two the helicopter shows up right after he dropped which show the distances involved You can't see the acutal shoot but you get the idea. If you are a cop I'm sure you can figure out the goings on with the car cam and FLIR shots even though you can't see the shots being delivered the combination of clips tell one hell of a story One of the articles highlights the internal where the dep mentions he notices the rounds not having an effect and thinks bad guy may have armor. Again I'm getting the offical stuff but this will give you an idea of what this case involved. You also see how the media spins the story using unamed sources to criticize the tactics involved. You got the face sheet of the report a draft copy which was edited later. The articles have excerts from the 911 call.

There is no audio on the tape the mic was not working. At the begining dep and bad guy were head to head and the dep spun on him and turned on the camera dead muther knew he had a cop behind him. Contary to the media the dep didn't turn on his lights until dead ass muther fucker began to pull over without being signaled to stop I think to set up his ambush, dep turned on lights to indicate his location/presence as he was leaving a main throughfair and an airship was enroute. Tested positive for alcohol cocaine and mary jane along with some other stuff (dead muther fucker not the dep(drugs don't kill)). I posted this to keep your thread up so you could get some more responses your research could very well save folks lives "21 foot rule" my ass try the "35 yard rule"
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