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Posted: 8/9/2004 10:06:25 AM EST



Army remains sceptical of Arjun tank
RAJAT PANDIT

TIMES NEWS NETWORK
SUNDAY, AUGUST 08, 2004 07:22:18 AM

NEW DELHI: The Army may have taken the delivery of the first five "indigenously-developed" Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs) on Saturday but it still remains slightly sceptical about the tank's combat worthiness and operational mobility.

"With its excessive weight and width, the Arjun tank has poor operational mobility. It will not be possible to rapidly move it from one area of operation to another on the existing tank transporters on our rail network," said a senior officer.

At 58.5 tonnes, the Arjun is much heavier than the newly-inducted T-90S Russian MBT, which weighs 46.5 tonnes, and is consequently less manoeuvrable.

"It may prove too heavy for some of our bridges. It's also yet to be fully proven that the recurring problems with its engine and fire control systems have been solved," said an officer.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=34773


Chennai , Aug. 7

THE indigenously designed and built, main battle tank (MBT) `Arjun' rolled out of the Heavy Vehicle Factory at Avadi on Saturday. This marks a milestone in India's self-reliance in defence equipment, according to officials.

The Defence Minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee, formally handed over five Arjuns to the Chief of Army Staff, Gen. N.C. Vij.

Addressing the rollout function, Mr Mukherjee said that India has demonstrated its capability in science and technology, management and defence preparedness. But the Government cannot go it alone in this endeavour; there is a need for public-private partnerships with the involvement of scientists, technologists and the industry.

The private sector has to take an active role in defence projects. Industry can complement the limited resources available to the Government and discharge its responsibility to the nation, he said.

The Defence Ministry needs the production and planning skills available with the private sector and the Ministry would support the industry.

India does not have any ambitions of expanding its territory but it was also equally determined not to "secede even 1mm of land." It has been a victim of the worst type of cross-border terrorism - the biggest threat to international peace and security - with more than 70,000 civilians and defence personnel having lost their lives.

Gen. Vij said that the five MBTs would now be put through their paces, and once cleared, the HVF at Avadi would get further orders. "It is a dream come true. If a couple of regiments could be equipped with Arjun, then it would be great," he said.

An MBT, in defence parlance, is distinguished by its heavy armour and armament. The 58-tonne Arjun is clad in newly developed lightweight composite Kanchan armour, and its primary armament is a 120-mm rifled gun. The fire control systems are computer controlled and the tank is capable of operating at night too. It is also equipped with 7.62-mm machine gun and a 12.7-mm anti-aircraft machine gun. The army has placed orders for about 120 more MBT Arjuns.



Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2, and Leclerc, the 59-ton "15th Variant" can achieve a maximum speed of 70 kph (55 mph) and cross-country speed of 40 kph with its 1400-hp powerplant. The 1,610-liter fuel tank allows for a cruising range of 200 km (120 miles). To ensure crew survivability, production versions will have the indigenously-researched and developed ‘Kanchan’ composite armor, an automatic fire detection and suppression system, and an NBC protection system designed and built by the Bhabha Atomic Research Center.

The rifled 120mm gun, which includes a muzzle reference system, is made of ESR steel and is fitted with a thermal sleeve and fume extractor. All main gun rounds use a semi-combustible cartridge case with increased energy propellant for higher muzzle velocity and greater penetration characteristics. In addition to the usual suite of rounds, an anti-helicopter round is under development as well. The Arjun’s fire control system includes a laser rangefinder, ballistic computer, thermal imaging night sight, stabilized panoramic sight for the tank commander, and a secondary telescopic sight. The LRF (integral to the gunner’s sight) has a range of nearly 10 km and a thermal imager (which can “see”’ at around 5.5 km, recognize a target at 3.1 km and identify targets at 2.5 km). The Arjun fire control system’s ability to fire on the move during the night is a major step forward for Indian armored forces.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 10:20:43 AM EST
Doen't sound like they are very optimistic about it's performance or their ability to move it from point A to point B even within their own borders.

Link Posted: 8/9/2004 10:23:00 AM EST
Look! Crunchies!
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 10:24:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 10:25:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By KA3B:
www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/arjun-mbt-pic1.jpg


Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams



Link Posted: 8/9/2004 10:51:51 AM EST
that turret IR port is a bit too lecrlerc for me. ............
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 10:57:02 AM EST
doesn't look that bad, but they'll want to get rid of the bright red paint
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 10:59:46 AM EST
They will need them for the chinese hordes.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 11:04:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By GC456:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/arjun-mbt-pic1.jpg


Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams






My thoughts exactly.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 11:06:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
They will need them for the chinese hordes.



Tough to use armor in the Himalaya's! Ought to be interesting seeing them duke it out in the mountains.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 11:14:03 AM EST
Looks mean but it would be fodder for an Abrams or a Leopard II.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:18:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2004 5:18:30 PM EST by billclo]
They forget that we have the best trained tank crews in the world. Never forget that a superior crew can and probably will win in a fight versus a poorly trained crew with an equal quality tank. The Israelis in their hodgepodge of tanks versus hordes of T-55s comes to mind. The T-55 might have been a good tank, but the Arab crews weren't all that well trained.

I'm skeptical that this tank is a real threat to an M1A2, unless they hit it in the rear or something.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:21:25 PM EST
Too bad an Abrams will still destroy it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:26:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By GC456:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/arjun-mbt-pic1.jpg


Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams






Now which asshat made that statement.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:29:29 PM EST
The article did.
Just learn to read?




Originally Posted By sterling18:

Originally Posted By GC456:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/arjun-mbt-pic1.jpg


Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams






Now which asshat made that statement.

Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:29:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2004 5:32:57 PM EST by SPECTRE]
Yawn

Its most lethal weapon............THE FLAMING SQUISHY CANNON !!
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:30:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2004 6:42:47 PM EST by Winston_Wolf]
... Sorry to tell all you “groundies” the bad news, but armored vehicles are all but extinct in the C3 FCS battlefield of tomorrow.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:44:37 PM EST
You guys forget, they have sheer numbers. Like the T34 they will try to overwhelm us. Most likely they will be used to fight the Pakis. They used Patton tanks in the last war with the Pakis.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 5:46:13 PM EST
I heard it runs on curry.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 6:00:00 PM EST
Aside from the super-duper-secret mystery armor plating, the Abrams series has a significant advantage over most others -> RANGE...

Nearly double the range of a T72, IIRC...

Tanks aren't obselete, either... Anymore than infantry became obselete with the advent of the tank...

As long as you have air superiority, you're fine... So long as we don't get KommieKerry for President, and the F-22 gets produced in enough quantity to replace the F-15C, we'll be fine there for a while...
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 6:16:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Someone glued a Leopard II and a T-72 together......



You know, that is a very good discription of the way it looks.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 6:28:32 PM EST
Not likely to be used against Abrahms, but should be pretty good against the Paki's.

I heard Egypt was producing base Abrahms tanks, the 105 version. Does anyone know if this is still going on? I wonder if Egypt can export them to Pakistan.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 6:29:32 PM EST
Against the Pakistanis or the Chinese it sounds like it would perform well.

I really don't see any reason for us to get involved fighting it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 6:39:59 PM EST
Glad I'm not in it.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 6:47:20 PM EST
Why all the statement sounding as if we will be destroying these? Isn't India an (sorta Kinda) ally?
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 6:58:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sumo2000:
Why all the statement sounding as if we will be destroying these? Isn't India an (sorta Kinda) ally?



Not really. They were allied with the Soviets during the Cold War.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 7:02:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Guns_N_Shizzle:

Originally Posted By Sumo2000:
Why all the statement sounding as if we will be destroying these? Isn't India an (sorta Kinda) ally?



Not really. They were allied with the Soviets during the Cold War.



So was Poland. I mean, we just played wargames with them, I thought we only did that with friendly nations.

Besides, I would much rather have India as an ally than Pakistan. India is one of the most underrated countries in the world.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 7:06:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... Sorry to tell all you “groundies” the bad news, but armored vehicles are all but extinct in the C3 FCS battlefield of tomorrow.



Sure, but they're fighting yesterday's battles today. Common enough, I mean look at the human wave attacks in the iran/iraq war.. That stuff went out in 1918.

They might have problems running those against the Chinese, but if they stack 'em up on the paki border they'll be fine.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 7:07:23 PM EST
Considering that disputed region between Paki and India is as mountainous as it gets, one has to wonder how useful tanks can be.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 7:14:42 PM EST
I like the flat sides on the tank, it makes a good laser target. Is this thing supposed to be futuristic?
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 7:31:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/9/2004 7:31:55 PM EST by painrx]

Originally Posted By GC456:

Originally Posted By KA3B:
www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/images/arjun-mbt-pic1.jpg


Considered comparable to the M1A2 Abrams



hr


+1. that thing is a joke. no deflective armor, no LOS-EU, no CITV, and i'm willing to bet their thermal imaging is shit. an abrams would run circles around that.

but hey they painted it urban camo! maybe if they put some gold tracks on it for bling bling purposes it'll be in a rap video on MTV.
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 8:11:08 PM EST
the chassis looks like an old soviet tank. POS
Link Posted: 8/9/2004 8:20:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By Javak:
Considering that disputed region between Paki and India is as mountainous as it gets, one has to wonder how useful tanks can be.



Yep. Nukes would work much better there. And they both have 'em!

Good article a while back in National Geographic (I think) about the border dispute. Very high altitude artillery duels.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:26:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
They will need them for the chinese hordes.



Tough to use armor in the Himalaya's! Ought to be interesting seeing them duke it out in the mountains.



They already have.

I would not discount this tank. In quantity they can probably make a lot of them, and they learned enough from this model to make another model that will be better. This is a long-term threat to us--another technically saavy country making cheap fairly high-tech weapons. I bet Third Worlders could afford to buy 10 of these for every Abrams we might bring to battle.

Moving the tank the big problem is that the local infrastructure is horrible. Bad roads, bad rail, lousy bridges, etc. But that can be improved there much faster than in the USA. About 5 years ago they started building a subway system in New Delhi. Today the system is open with about 30 miles of track. A similar project would take close to 20 years in the USA.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:30:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Javak:
Considering that disputed region between Paki and India is as mountainous as it gets, one has to wonder how useful tanks can be.



The last war (Kargil) was fought only in the mountains. All previous wars were fought on the flatlands and in the deserts (and at sea). Relatively few men fought in the mountains. It is truly tough terrain--almost twice the altitude of the Rockies and covered with glaciers.

The Line of Control across Kashmir reflects a race by Paki and India armor after independence to capture the road net (such as it is) in Kashmir. Wherever each side's armor wound up that's where the line of control is today. The Indians used a lot of Stuart ("Honey") tanks in that operation.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:32:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By Javak:
Considering that disputed region between Paki and India is as mountainous as it gets, one has to wonder how useful tanks can be.



Its only use would be as self propelled artillary and that would be very limited.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:35:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2004 4:59:29 AM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Someone glued a Leopard II and a T-72 together......



That is EXACTLY what the did! The tank was designed with a lot of German design input, then add in Soviet bits and pieces. It has not been a success IT TOOK 30 YEARS to get from the drawing board to service.

www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/arjun.htm

The Indians are buying 310 Russian T-90's instead of persevering with the Arjun. Its expected they will standardise on the T-72 (they have @ 700+ IIRC) and T-90 as their armies future main battle tanks.


ANdy
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:41:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By eaglebite:
I like the flat sides on the tank, it makes a good laser target. Is this thing supposed to be futuristic?


I was noticing the same thing. Who in their right mind engineers flat, vertical armor anymore?

Leave it to the Muslims.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:49:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By eaglebite:
I like the flat sides on the tank, it makes a good laser target. Is this thing supposed to be futuristic?


I was noticing the same thing. Who in their right mind engineers flat, vertical armor anymore?

Leave it to the Muslims.



They're Hindus… they distrust the Muslims more than we do!

Andy
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 4:50:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By eaglebite:
I like the flat sides on the tank, it makes a good laser target. Is this thing supposed to be futuristic?


I was noticing the same thing. Who in their right mind engineers flat, vertical armor anymore?

Leave it to the Muslims.


They're Hindus… they distrust the Muslims more than we do!


Oh, that explains it.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 5:04:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2004 9:33:03 AM EST by vito113]

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By eaglebite:
I like the flat sides on the tank, it makes a good laser target. Is this thing supposed to be futuristic?


I was noticing the same thing. Who in their right mind engineers flat, vertical armor anymore?

Leave it to the Muslims.


They're Hindus… they distrust the Muslims more than we do!


Oh, that explains it.



You want a REAL laugh? Check out India's Automobiles…… this is the HINDUSTAN AMBASSADOR…… indians BEST car! used by their Ministers,top officials and the wealthy!



It's been in production since 1948 originally as the Morris Oxford!

And this is the stretched Limo version by Parikh Coachbuilders… no it is not a joke, they really make this!!!



Andy
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 5:12:56 AM EST


Where's the snorkle?
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 5:32:08 AM EST
Whats all this talk about ARJUN v. Abrams? Just let the Air Force and the Apache loose on them.

From above with love.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 9:50:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:
You want a REAL laugh? Check out India's Automobiles…… this is the HINDUSTAN AMBASSADOR…… indians BEST car! used by their Ministers,top officials and the wealthy!

img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/2003090301670201.jpg

It's been in production since 1948 originally as the Morris Oxford!



They also build & export a Royal Enfield copy single cylinder motorcycle (350 & 500cc). From what I understand they're almost 100% the same as the original '40s-50s Brit built bikes (excluding modern carb & lighting for US DOT compliance).
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 1:04:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Guns_N_Shizzle:

Originally Posted By Sumo2000:
Why all the statement sounding as if we will be destroying these? Isn't India an (sorta Kinda) ally?



Not really. They were allied with the Soviets during the Cold War.



Nope, they were one of the "non-aligned" nations. They bought stuff from everybody, and built their own stuff which is usually based off of other designs. They never bought much of anything from us, because we were suppying Pakistan, so that didn't go over too well with them. They bought stuff from the Brits, being a former Brit colony though, but they've had a VERY big arms manufacturing base of their own for a very long time. They pretty much make everything in-country that they can use, to includ nukes. About the only thing the still go outside for is aircraft and vessels. To give you an example of how they buy things, they buy both Russian and British ships.

They've been cozy to the Soviets, when it was advantageous, but they were never commies, or puppets of anyone. They just do their own thing, and get what they need from anyone. They've been pretty cozy to us as well, when it was advantageous. Where do you think all those call-centers are? Why do you think they come here to go to school for doctors and engineers?

Since the attack on 9-11, India has actually become a much closer ally of the USA. They've offered bases and anything we need to go after terrorists, and we use them as leverage to pressure the Pakistani government into doing alot of what we need them to do. Inda also has the second largest Muslim population in the World, but doesn't have much of a problem with Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists (except near the Paki boarder, gee...I wonder why?), because they are growing and developing into a modern nation. Sure, it's still a third-world shithole, but they are getting more advanced each minute with high tech jobs, engineers, etc, rather than remaining in the stone-age as so many other nations with a large muslim population. While mostly Hindu, it still has ALOT of Muslims. The difference is that they see why democracy and capitalism is good, and that's why that country has a future.

You'll notice that there aren't any Indian Muslims on these "watch lists" or get arressted in these raids, or hang out in these dens of terrosim. Yet India has the second largest population of Muslims. Why is that? Because they are trying to get themselves out of the stone-age. Economics, diplomicy, and warfare go hand in hand.

Also they don't like the Chinese. We may be in the middle of the war on terror, but the Pentagon still looks far down the road to see what's coming up next. Don't think that things like joint exercises with their air force and navy, the recent training and renewed links in the Pacific Rim, various ties with other countires in the former Soviet Union that border China, the recent port-call to Vietnam by that Navy ship, and even US support of the Russian Military modernization are all some coincidence. The Pentagon knows what's coming. It's setting the foundation now for what we'll need in the future when China grows up. India will be a huge player in that future.

Ross
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 1:20:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/10/2004 1:21:29 PM EST by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By Sumo2000:

Originally Posted By Guns_N_Shizzle:

Originally Posted By Sumo2000:
Why all the statement sounding as if we will be destroying these? Isn't India an (sorta Kinda) ally?



Not really. They were allied with the Soviets during the Cold War.



So was Poland. I mean, we just played wargames with them, I thought we only did that with friendly nations.

Besides, I would much rather have India as an ally than Pakistan. India is one of the most underrated countries in the world.



Poland is a member of NATO and one of the 3 major powers in Iraq (US, Britian, Poland). Not only are they the "good guys" they are a pretty close ally now.

Poland was always the most "Western" of the old Communist countries.

Av.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 1:33:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... Sorry to tell all you “groundies” the bad news, but armored vehicles are all but extinct in the C3 FCS battlefield of tomorrow.



Flyboys have said that for 50 years, and yet armor still rules the open spaces.

And it still will when I hang up my uniform, and I have 30+ years left to serve.
Link Posted: 8/10/2004 1:39:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:
... Sorry to tell all you “groundies” the bad news, but armored vehicles are all but extinct in the C3 FCS battlefield of tomorrow.



Flyboys have said that for 50 years, and yet armor still rules the open spaces.



Exactly!
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 5:13:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ross:
Since the attack on 9-11, India has actually become a much closer ally of the USA. They've offered bases and anything we need to go after terrorists, and we use them as leverage to pressure the Pakistani government into doing alot of what we need them to do. Inda also has the second largest Muslim population in the World, but doesn't have much of a problem with Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists (except near the Paki boarder, gee...I wonder why?), because they are growing and developing into a modern nation. Sure, it's still a third-world shithole, but they are getting more advanced each minute with high tech jobs, engineers, etc, rather than remaining in the stone-age as so many other nations with a large muslim population. While mostly Hindu, it still has ALOT of Muslims. The difference is that they see why democracy and capitalism is good, and that's why that country has a future.

You'll notice that there aren't any Indian Muslims on these "watch lists" or get arressted in these raids, or hang out in these dens of terrosim. Yet India has the second largest population of Muslims. Why is that? Because they are trying to get themselves out of the stone-age. Economics, diplomicy, and warfare go hand in hand.

Ross



I have to disagree with a few things here. First, their new government is less friendly to the USA. The new government coalition includes the Communist Party, which is very anti-American.

I also don't agree with you about Muslims in India. Many of them still live in the stone-age there including sharia law and Burkas in rural areas. Some Indian Muslims have been involved with Al Qeuda, and I think at least one of the Spain train bombers was Indian.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 6:41:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By GunLvrPHD:

Originally Posted By Ross:
Since the attack on 9-11, India has actually become a much closer ally of the USA. They've offered bases and anything we need to go after terrorists, and we use them as leverage to pressure the Pakistani government into doing alot of what we need them to do. Inda also has the second largest Muslim population in the World, but doesn't have much of a problem with Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorists (except near the Paki boarder, gee...I wonder why?), because they are growing and developing into a modern nation. Sure, it's still a third-world shithole, but they are getting more advanced each minute with high tech jobs, engineers, etc, rather than remaining in the stone-age as so many other nations with a large muslim population. While mostly Hindu, it still has ALOT of Muslims. The difference is that they see why democracy and capitalism is good, and that's why that country has a future.

You'll notice that there aren't any Indian Muslims on these "watch lists" or get arressted in these raids, or hang out in these dens of terrosim. Yet India has the second largest population of Muslims. Why is that? Because they are trying to get themselves out of the stone-age. Economics, diplomicy, and warfare go hand in hand.

Ross



I have to disagree with a few things here. First, their new government is less friendly to the USA. The new government coalition includes the Communist Party, which is very anti-American.

I also don't agree with you about Muslims in India. Many of them still live in the stone-age there including sharia law and Burkas in rural areas. Some Indian Muslims have been involved with Al Qeuda, and I think at least one of the Spain train bombers was Indian.

GunLvr



Are you serious? The Indian goverment/military is fighting a war agaisnt Islamic fundamentalist groups in Kasmir. How exactly is thier new goverment "Less Friendly To The USA"? Hell, we just did a major military exercise with the Indian military. Our relationship has not been this good since WWII.
Link Posted: 8/11/2004 7:03:40 AM EST
The armor is flat because most composite armors can only be produced in flat panels. It's turret is modeled after the German Leopard II which has the exact same vertical sides and has long been considered one of the heaviest armored MBT's...after the Merkava and Challenger II. It evern beat out the M1A2 in a number of trials. The armor packages on most newer MBT's are about equal. The M1A2 is not invulnerable either. One had it's rear turret penetrated by a 25mm APFSDS-DU round from an M2 Bradley in Iraq.



Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By eaglebite:
I like the flat sides on the tank, it makes a good laser target. Is this thing supposed to be futuristic?


I was noticing the same thing. Who in their right mind engineers flat, vertical armor anymore?

Leave it to the Muslims.

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