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9/23/2020 3:47:02 PM
Posted: 12/18/2009 11:29:55 AM EDT
link to story and video

The caller said a woman in her early 20s was in labor. When deputies arrived, they discovered the baby had actually been born around 1:00a.m., about ten hours earlier. Investigators say the baby was already dead when deputies got there.

Investigators tell WSLS the baby’s airway was still blocked. They say the baby was under bedding and had been suffocated by her mother. Investigators say because the mother and baby were still connected by the umbilical cord and placenta, state law does not consider the baby to be a separate life. Therefore, the mother cannot be charged.

“In the state of Virginia as long as the umbilical cord is attached and the placenta is still in the mother, if the baby comes out alive the mother can do whatever she wants to with that baby to kill it.“, says Investigator Tracy Emerson. “She could shoot the baby, stab the baby. As long as it’s still attached to her in some form by umbilical cord or something it’s no crime in the state of Virginia.“

The Campbell County Sheriff’s Office and Commonwealth’s Attorney’s office worked unsuccessfully to get the law changed after another baby died in the county in a similar case. Emerson says they asked two delegates and one state senator to take the issue up in the General Assembly. He says the three lawmakers refused because they felt the issue was too close to the abortion issue.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:32:48 AM EDT
I predict this thread will go smoothly.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:33:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By kitteh:
link to story and video

The caller said a woman in her early 20s was in labor. When deputies arrived, they discovered the baby had actually been born around 1:00a.m., about ten hours earlier. Investigators say the baby was already dead when deputies got there.

Investigators tell WSLS the baby’s airway was still blocked. They say the baby was under bedding and had been suffocated by her mother. Investigators say because the mother and baby were still connected by the umbilical cord and placenta, state law does not consider the baby to be a separate life. Therefore, the mother cannot be charged.

“In the state of Virginia as long as the umbilical cord is attached and the placenta is still in the mother, if the baby comes out alive the mother can do whatever she wants to with that baby to kill it.“, says Investigator Tracy Emerson. “She could shoot the baby, stab the baby. As long as it’s still attached to her in some form by umbilical cord or something it’s no crime in the state of Virginia.“

The Campbell County Sheriff’s Office and Commonwealth’s Attorney’s office worked unsuccessfully to get the law changed after another baby died in the county in a similar case. Emerson says they asked two delegates and one state senator to take the issue up in the General Assembly. He says the three lawmakers refused because they felt the issue was too close to the abortion issue.


I saw this on O'Reilly last night when Meghan Kelly did her little cameo appearance on the latter part of his show.

She was livid that this was still legal, as am I. Totally fucked up. Virginia has lots of places where un-wanted babies can be left for adoption, no questions asked, like fire houses for instance.

The "mother" who did this had no remorse for what she did to that baby. out of

Poor baby
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:34:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 11:35:18 AM EDT by Shane333]
Please tell me that this is some sort of sick joke.

I'm serious.  Please tell me that this isn't real.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:37:20 AM EDT
Yup, we have a ways to go here in the great Commonwealth.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:39:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:40:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By kitteh:
link to story and video

The caller said a woman in her early 20s was in labor. When deputies arrived, they discovered the baby had actually been born around 1:00a.m., about ten hours earlier. Investigators say the baby was already dead when deputies got there.

Investigators tell WSLS the baby’s airway was still blocked. They say the baby was under bedding and had been suffocated by her mother. Investigators say because the mother and baby were still connected by the umbilical cord and placenta, state law does not consider the baby to be a separate life. Therefore, the mother cannot be charged.

“In the state of Virginia as long as the umbilical cord is attached and the placenta is still in the mother, if the baby comes out alive the mother can do whatever she wants to with that baby to kill it.“, says Investigator Tracy Emerson. “She could shoot the baby, stab the baby. As long as it’s still attached to her in some form by umbilical cord or something it’s no crime in the state of Virginia.“

The Campbell County Sheriff’s Office and Commonwealth’s Attorney’s office worked unsuccessfully to get the law changed after another baby died in the county in a similar case. Emerson says they asked two delegates and one state senator to take the issue up in the General Assembly. He says the three lawmakers refused because they felt the issue was too close to the abortion issue.


I saw this on O'Reilly last night when Meghan Kelly did her little cameo appearance on the latter part of his show.

She was livid that this was still legal, as am I. Totally fucked up. Virginia has lots of places where un-wanted babies can be left for adoption, no questions asked, like fire houses for instance.

The "mother" who did this had no remorse for what she did to that baby. out of

Poor baby


Doesn't make sense to not put it up for adoption after carrying it for 9 months.  That's a fucked up law.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:41:05 AM EDT
According to some people on this board she should be allowed to do what she wants in her own home.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:41:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TechGal26:
I predict this thread will go smoothly.


Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:42:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 11:44:14 AM EDT by Bubbles]
IBTSS.  And yes, VA does have some very fucked up laws.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:43:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 11:49:05 AM EDT by krpind]
If you start listing shit that is illegal, like talking on a cell phone while driving in a school zone, and then look at some shit like that, it makes you wonder if we aren't electing the dumbest motherfuckers we can find into public office.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:44:28 AM EDT


Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:46:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Shane333:
Please tell me that this is some sort of sick joke.

I'm serious.  Please tell me that this isn't real.


It is real, its not a sick joke, its a sick "loop hole" in the Commonwealth of Virginia's Law.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:48:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 11:50:06 AM EDT by DK-Prof]
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:48:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By Shane333:
Please tell me that this is some sort of sick joke.

I'm serious.  Please tell me that this isn't real.


It is real, its not a sick joke, its a sick "loop hole" in the Commonwealth of Virginia's Law.


Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:49:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


If this happened, a prosecutor might decide to not press charged (if the women is insane, maybe or for some other reason) - but to claim that this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:51:29 AM EDT



Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  




In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).



Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).



The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000





That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


Damn you and your facts!!!!



 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:53:20 AM EDT
I saw this on Fox last night as well.  WTF is wrong with people.  
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:53:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 11:53:57 AM EDT by Boomslang64]
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


Good point.  I fully expect absolutely no one to read this.  Then the arguments will get heated, the trolls will come out, and the thread will be trashed.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:54:31 AM EDT
People can be animals.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:55:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:55:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 11:56:30 AM EDT by LuvBUSHmaster]
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but in Virginia law it states that if the baby has not become "independent" of the mother, then its not considered homicide if the "mother" decides to kill the baby herself. Meaning: no breathe from baby, no cord seperation and "mommy" can kill the baby.

Meghan Kelly is a lawyer, she broke it down and other news agencies have done the same. Its technically legal and there seems to be alot of nutless politicians that won't stand up and get this made illegal. Hell, the woman who did this and spurred this news report is not arrested or charged with anything. It is completely fucked up and evil.

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 11:56:26 AM EDT
Did you not watch the video? Law Enforcement could not charge her with a crime.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:00:08 PM EDT
This is the most despicable thing I've ever read. How can someone be that screwed up to do that to their own child.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:00:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Boomslang64:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000

That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


Good point.  I fully expect absolutely no one to read this, then the arguments will get heated, the trolls will come out, and the thread will be trashed.


Maybe it truly IS some completely bizarre loophole, but it seems to me that the child/fetus has to be one thing or the other.

It is either a child that has been born, in which case it would clearly be murder.

Or, it is an unborn child, in which case it would be a felony illegal third trimester abortion.

I don't see how it could be neither of the two.



yeah

im gonna go with insanely bizzare loophole

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:08:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TacticalMOLONLABE:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.

Damn you and your facts!!!!
 



Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:24:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 12:24:35 PM EDT by Cypher15]





Originally Posted By tripleplay:





Originally Posted By TacticalMOLONLABE:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  







In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).





Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).





The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000
That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.



Damn you and your facts!!!!


 






http://i50.tinypic.com/91dl6v.jpg


it was a bizarre loophole but a Va politician has stepped up to keep it from happening again.  better late than never




 
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:24:28 PM EDT
That is just sad.

What the hell is wrong with some people.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 12:56:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 1:02:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but in Virginia law it states that if the baby has not become "independent" of the mother, then its not considered homicide if the "mother" decides to kill the baby herself. Meaning: no breathe from baby, no cord seperation and "mommy" can kill the baby.

Meghan Kelly is a lawyer, she broke it down and other news agencies have done the same. Its technically legal and there seems to be alot of nutless politicians that won't stand up and get this made illegal. Hell, the woman who did this and spurred this news report is not arrested or charged with anything. It is completely fucked up and evil.



That just seems non-sensical to me, because by that logic, if the baby is not "independent" then killing it would have to be an abortion, by defintion - and so while you cannot nail her for murder, you can certainly nail her for the highly illegal abortion.

As I said above, it either has to be a born baby, or an unborn fetus.  I have a hard time believing that for some period of time - no matter how small - the child falls into neither category.  That doesn't sound like how the law normally works.  

Then again, I am not a lawyer, so who knows what bizarre and crazy ways those guys can twist "the law" into pretzels.


Laws and logic don't go hand in hand. It makes no sense to me at all either!

However, it/this has happened in Virginia and until its changed, its "legal".

Link Posted: 12/18/2009 1:03:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 1:38:08 PM EDT by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but in Virginia law it states that if the baby has not become "independent" of the mother, then its not considered homicide if the "mother" decides to kill the baby herself. Meaning: no breathe from baby, no cord seperation and "mommy" can kill the baby.

Meghan Kelly is a lawyer, she broke it down and other news agencies have done the same. Its technically legal and there seems to be alot of nutless politicians that won't stand up and get this made illegal. Hell, the woman who did this and spurred this news report is not arrested or charged with anything. It is completely fucked up and evil.



That just seems non-sensical to me, because by that logic, if the baby is not "independent" then killing it would have to be an abortion, by defintion - and so while you cannot nail her for murder, you can certainly nail her for the highly illegal abortion.

As I said above, it either has to be a born baby, or an unborn fetus.  I have a hard time believing that for some period of time - no matter how small - the child falls into neither category.  That doesn't sound like how the law normally works.  

Then again, I am not a lawyer, so who knows what bizarre and crazy ways those guys can twist "the law" into pretzels.


Most human beings are nothing more than dogs that can read.  Abortion proves it.  

How is this different, really, from a regular late term abortion?

It's just more revolting than usual.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 1:05:40 PM EDT


Link Posted: 12/18/2009 1:08:09 PM EDT
Unpossibble....  
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 1:11:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2009 1:13:41 PM EDT by BushBoar]
Originally Posted By kitteh:
link to story and video

The caller said a woman in her early 20s was in labor. When deputies arrived, they discovered the baby had actually been born around 1:00a.m., about ten hours earlier. Investigators say the baby was already dead when deputies got there.

Investigators tell WSLS the baby’s airway was still blocked. They say the baby was under bedding and had been suffocated by her mother. Investigators say because the mother and baby were still connected by the umbilical cord and placenta, state law does not consider the baby to be a separate life. Therefore, the mother cannot be charged.

“In the state of Virginia as long as the umbilical cord is attached and the placenta is still in the mother, if the baby comes out alive the mother can do whatever she wants to with that baby to kill it.“, says Investigator Tracy Emerson. “She could shoot the baby, stab the baby. As long as it’s still attached to her in some form by umbilical cord or something it’s no crime in the state of Virginia.“

The Campbell County Sheriff’s Office and Commonwealth’s Attorney’s office worked unsuccessfully to get the law changed after another baby died in the county in a similar case. Emerson says they asked two delegates and one state senator to take the issue up in the General Assembly. He says the three lawmakers refused because they felt the issue was too close to the abortion issue.


Generally (as in most states) a child is considered a "person" legally when it is born, not when the cord is cut.

This is all kinds of fucked up.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 1:13:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but in Virginia law it states that if the baby has not become "independent" of the mother, then its not considered homicide if the "mother" decides to kill the baby herself. Meaning: no breathe from baby, no cord seperation and "mommy" can kill the baby.

Meghan Kelly is a lawyer, she broke it down and other news agencies have done the same. Its technically legal and there seems to be alot of nutless politicians that won't stand up and get this made illegal. Hell, the woman who did this and spurred this news report is not arrested or charged with anything. It is completely fucked up and evil.



Granted.  She can and should be charged with an unauthorized abortion, which the good professor indicated is a felony.
Link Posted: 12/18/2009 1:20:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BushBoar:
Originally Posted By LuvBUSHmaster:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sounds like bullshit - or a very bizarre loophole.  

In Virginia, abortion is legal in the first trimester, is legal in the second trimester ONLY in a licensed hospital, and is legal in the third trimester ONLY if the continuation of the pregnancy is likely to resuilt in the death, physical or mental impairment of the mother as determined by THREE M.D.s (and obviously, is performed in a licensed hospital).

Even if the supposed "logic" of the umbilical cord were correct, it would STILL be considered a third-trimester abortion, and would be criminal unless it was likely to threaten the life or serious health of the women - based on the opinion of three M.D.s - (which it clearly wouldn't, being outside the body), AND it would have to be performed in a licensed hopstial (which it clearly didn't).

The penalty for an unlawful abortion in Virginia is a felony that results in imprisonment 2 to 10 years and/or fine to $100,000


That this would not be a serious crime in Virginia seems like nonsense.


I'm not disagreeing with you, but in Virginia law it states that if the baby has not become "independent" of the mother, then its not considered homicide if the "mother" decides to kill the baby herself. Meaning: no breathe from baby, no cord seperation and "mommy" can kill the baby.

Meghan Kelly is a lawyer, she broke it down and other news agencies have done the same. Its technically legal and there seems to be alot of nutless politicians that won't stand up and get this made illegal. Hell, the woman who did this and spurred this news report is not arrested or charged with anything. It is completely fucked up and evil.



Granted.  She can and should be charged with an unauthorized abortion, which the good professor indicated is a felony.


Great. Someone please arrest that murderous miserable piece of human garbage.

But why then wasn't she arrested for it?
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