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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 6/25/2001 2:09:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 2:14:57 PM EDT
No contest, More infringement of our rights You dont think they're gonna give up some power do ya ?? remember, IT'S FOR SAFETY !!!! (also could use its for the children) [x]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 2:23:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 2:40:22 PM EDT
I wholeheartedly agree with you SGB. He walks in a better place now anyway.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 2:53:04 PM EDT
While I agree with you about a citizen's rights. It does not justify taking a police officer's life. God bless the fallen officer.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 3:07:19 PM EDT
Link Please ?
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 3:23:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By range man: While I agree with you about a citizen's rights. It does not justify taking a police officer's life. God bless the fallen officer.
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Police Departments don't violate innocent citizen's Constitutional Rights - individual police officers do. And I trully believe that when given unconstitutional instructions, most cops will follow orders instead of putting their jobs and pensions in jeopardy. They value their paycheck over your rights. So when I hear about a situation like this, I have a hard time feeling sorry for the officer. After all, he was the one in the street stopping cars, searching vehicles, and interrogating citizens who are doing nothing more suspicious than driving on a public roadway. Every holiday - New Years, Memorial Day, July 4th, etc. - the local PD sets up a "Sobriety Checkpoint" a few blocks from my house on the major thoroughfare. That means I can't go to the grocery store or drive through the local Taco Bell without running the gauntlet. I've been stopped, questioned, required to produce ID and registration, and even been taken out of my car and forced to perform Field Sobriety Tests or face arrest. And not once have I ever been accused of drinking a single drop of alcohol. So if some cop died while performing one of these grossly unconstitutional activities, I say fuck him! Maybe the next cop will think twice before stomping all over the rights of citizens.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 3:33:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2001 3:32:00 PM EDT by SGB]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 3:40:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/25/2001 3:38:03 PM EDT by LARRYG]
Originally Posted By SGB:
"So if some [u]cop died[/u] while performing one of these grossly unconstitutional activities([red]private opinion[/red]),[b] I say fuck him!"[/b]
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remittance [:0][:(!][-!-]
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AGREED. Steel Rat, so because you are inconvenienced, a cop should die. I don't like these roadblocks either, but this is a little harsh.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 3:59:28 PM EDT
This is a tough one. It is a tradegy the LEO was killed but I for one detest the thought of these random searches without probable cause. The practice should never have been allowed by the high court.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 4:06:10 PM EDT
Do the distinguished members of the almighty US Supreme Court cooperate if/ when they get stopped? Or do they pull that: "Do you know who I am" routine?
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 4:22:49 PM EDT
The salient question is should you feel sorry for someone who died while in the process of violating another's Constitutional rights? I certainly feel sorry for his family.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 4:34:14 PM EDT
I feel sorry for the Cop, but this searches are too much. They were before only on the holiday weekend, at night. Now they have been "expanded" to the whole week of the 4th, and 24 hrs a day. This was said on the news, as a way to protect me from my fellow citizens. Basically a workfare program for government agents of the state. Still, noone should be dragged to their death. I still do not know how the dude got away. Anyways, when they catch him, he is going to get a ass beating, and wish he was dead. Or he will be found dead. State troopers don't fuck around. They can be some mean SOB's. c-rock www.illinois-shooter.org
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 4:57:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steel Rat:
Originally Posted By range man: While I agree with you about a citizen's rights. It does not justify taking a police officer's life. God bless the fallen officer.
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Police Departments don't violate innocent citizen's Constitutional Rights - individual police officers do. And I trully believe that when given unconstitutional instructions, most cops will follow orders instead of putting their jobs and pensions in jeopardy. They value their paycheck over your rights. So when I hear about a situation like this, I have a hard time feeling sorry for the officer. After all, he was the one in the street stopping cars, searching vehicles, and interrogating citizens who are doing nothing more suspicious than driving on a public roadway. Every holiday - New Years, Memorial Day, July 4th, etc. - the local PD sets up a "Sobriety Checkpoint" a few blocks from my house on the major thoroughfare. That means I can't go to the grocery store or drive through the local Taco Bell without running the gauntlet. I've been stopped, questioned, required to produce ID and registration, and even been taken out of my car and forced to perform Field Sobriety Tests or face arrest. And not once have I ever been accused of drinking a single drop of alcohol. So if some cop died while performing one of these grossly unconstitutional activities, I say fuck him! Maybe the next cop will think twice before stomping all over the rights of citizens.
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[%(] ditto [%(]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:04:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G: Steel Rat, so because you are inconvenienced, a cop should die. I don't like these roadblocks either, but this is a little harsh.
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Ok, everybody take a look at this, because in that one sentence is the reason why so many "civilians" hate LEOs. It's because LEOs get so used to acting like Fascist Thugs that it starts to become natural to them and they even forget they're doing it!!!! These LEOs perpetrate things like unlawful and unwarranted searches and feel that you are only being "inconvenienced" by their tactics, and instead of resisting you should just lay back and enjoy it. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for criminals. And as long as you feel these intrusions on innocent citizens are mere "inconveniences" then you're a criminal and you deserve what you get.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:11:42 PM EDT
I got your safety check point--RIGHT HERE!!! Incidently, the cop was a long-time friend of the guy who runs Sable Co. and I think they're probably pissed at me because I offered the same viewpoint about so-called "safety check points." What irked me was that even though the guy who ran over the cop had not yet been caught, they all jumped to the conclusion that he must have been drunk. Hell, I've been tempted to run cops over from time to time, especially when they are doing things that abuse the power bestowed upon them. Luckily, I don't act on those impulses.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:33:01 PM EDT
So what now? Every time we see a cop violating our or someone else’s rights we can run them down of shoot them. No trial? First that’s not justice and they will just declare war and begin killing us in cold blood to the tune of 50 at a time as a warning to all the others. Take a look at the history of Germany, Cambodia, etc. When a cop is parked beyond an overpass in the emergency lane to trap speeders and a car with a flat tire slams into him he (the cop) should be held personally responsible. And should go to jail. The problem lies in the government (fed state of local) taking responsibility for the actions of a single man and settling out of court without admitting fault. [thinking]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:34:05 PM EDT
I personally do not agree with roadblock searches. The Supreme Court does not, either. They currently are not legal in my state. The doctrine set for these was established a few years ago. My understanding was that the doctrine set the following restrictions: 1) There must be a state law authorizing the checkpoints. 2) The checkpoints can only be for a specific traffic or traffic-oriented violation (DWI, Driver's License, Insurance, etc.). 3) The checkpoints have to be announced to the media, including the location of the checkpoint, several days in advance. 4) The checkpoints have to be held in differing locations (you can't do the same one every Friday). 5) The delay to motorists cannot be "unreasonable." 6) Any searches of vehicles conducted at the checkpoints have to be conducted utilizing standard legal authority to conduct a legal search. This doctrine was not in any way intended to prevent police from setting up roadblocks during exigent circumstances, such as searching for dangerous criminals following a major incident, or prison escapees. The doctrine was established reluctantly by the Supreme Court because they recognized that state and local governments have a duty to make sure that the roads are safe from numerous driver-related traffic hazards. I personally do not agree with this, but the Supreme Court has spoken. As to the Officer who was killed, I sincerely hope that the person who murdered him is hunted down and convicted. The proper way to change the law is to go through the courts. These checkpoints have always been on shaky ground. The current group of justices tend to be fairly strict constructionists; there will be a challenge to a stop or arrest made at one of these checkpoints, and these checkpoints will be further curtailed or ended entirely. As far as some of the complaints about "illegal searches" go, most people in this country do not understand search and seizure law at all. Almost every tale or complaint of an "illegal search" by law enforcement that I have ever heard was completely groundless. I guess the difference is, that I usually try to explain to people why I did something, the legal authority for it, and the "common sense" reason. Most people, believe it or not, are reasonable and will respond to a reasonable explanation. I am of the firm opinion that oftentimes the difference between good law enforcement and bad law enforcement is politeness, courtesy (even to the really bad people) five minutes of conversation and a few smiles.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 5:55:43 PM EDT
While I generally wish no harm on any officer of the law, I don't feel they all take their responsibility to uphold the Constitution seriously enough. When officers are ordered to do these unconstitutional searches, they could all come down with a case of the "blue flu". It would not be long before the practice came to an end.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 6:56:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRY G:
Originally Posted By SGB:
"So if some [u]cop died[/u] while performing one of these grossly unconstitutional activities([red]private opinion[/red]),[b] I say fuck him!"[/b]
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remittance [:0][:(!][-!-]
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AGREED. Steel Rat, so because you are inconvenienced, a cop should die. I don't like these roadblocks either, but this is a little harsh.
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While I do not know any of the particulars of what happened to the officer and I offer my condolences to his family, we might look at this from a gun owner point of view. When they tell us we have to keep our guns in a state run facility, and to go shoot them we need to get prior approval in triplicate from a judge, or if we have to give them up entirely for the safety of the masses, we should just put up with the "inconvience"? At what point do we stop letting ourselves be "inconvienced" by the trampling of our rights because it's for "our own good"?
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 7:55:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steel Rat: So if some cop died while performing one of these grossly unconstitutional activities, I say fuck him! Maybe the next cop will think twice before stomping all over the rights of citizens.
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And what rights, specifically, was he violating? Or even "infringed?" Knee-jerk gunrange lawyer. Adjust your tinfoil hat; it's slipping. Out of all the "Safety & Sobriety Checkpoints" I've worked, only a mere fraction of the people checked were pissed, indignant, preturbed, whatever... The overwhelming majority were happy about it - "Thanks, guys - you need to do this more..." or "How many ya catch so far?" You think I'm doing this for the "powertrip?" Wrong; If it was for that, I'd have stayed at USSOCOM. For the money? -You must be phucking kidding... Imagine dying that way. My advise: think twice, post once. P3[pyro][:(!]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:04:42 PM EDT
Keep J.B.T.s safe - when at checkpoints don't ever roll your window down more than enough to slip your papers out.
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:10:46 PM EDT
Hey ParaPyroPig, The fact that people dont seem to care or actually like these checkpoints is what pisses me off. No it makes me sad. the less people care about their rights the more will be taken away. Unfortunatly, it seems to be the wave of the future. Only in the end will the sheeple realize what has happened....but it will be too late. [%(] FREEDOM
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:12:39 PM EDT
I think the rights he may be talking about are Unreasonable search and such. I have been watching this thread since it was up. I have decided to throw my 2 cents in here. While I feel bad for the LEOs family. I understand the anger of a lot of the posters here. I WOULD actually rather be killed by a drunken driver than give up another small part of my rights. I see no reason whatsoever for these "Safty Stops". To me, it is just a mass stopping of people to see if you can catch someone. 99.9% of all the people stopped at these things I will bet are sent on their way after showing the proper items. The problem is, that once the anger about things like this dies down it becomes the norm. The government can then start doing something maybe a little more invasive to my privacy in the name of safety and use the fact that they do "Safety Stops" all the time, and it is accepted. I am by no means a "conspiracy nut", but I do belive our rights are being slowly eroded. I think Ben Franklin said something like " Those who would give up essential freedoms for temporary security deserve neither freedom, nor security", and I agee with that. Next, I notice two things. For the most part, LEOs will back another LEOs actions when posted by someone that is unhappy with them. This is semi understandable, since you have the "insiders view" of the whole thing. I would encourage you though, to see the actions posted through the eyes of the average citizen your job is to serve before you reply to posts. I also notice there are a lot of people that do the opposite, they bash all LEOs without fail. once again 99% of the LEOs I have had encounters with have been very decent people. There are some that have been assholes byond just a "bad day" attitude, but they are the exception, not the norm. To these people, I would encourage you to do the same. While I do not wish to see any LEO hurt while on duty, I do think that what the officer was doing (Safety Checkpoint) while he was killed was wrong. Sometimes it takes things like this to bring points out. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:16:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:34:05 PM EDT
Personally, I think these checkpoints are a waste of time... A couple years ago, I was stopped at one of those sobriety checkpoints, and I was flat stone cold drunk. Being the polished drunk that I was, I simply popped in a stick of Big Red chewing gum, and played it cool. The cop had no idea I was trashed, and said "have a nice night" and let me go... Thank god he didn't ask me to get out of my truck, I would have definately fallen to the ground... Before you guys scold me for driving drunk... I DEFINATELY realize how lucky I was not getting caught, and not causing an accident... I thank my lucky stars, and haven't driven drunk since then, nor do I ever intend to do so again... I realize how stupid it was... I don't need any lectures... Simply adding my $.02 (nomex suit on, awaiting LEO flames)
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:46:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:53:23 PM EDT
I think a lot of the replies were from people who were under the understanding it WAS a mass safety check. Now that it is known it was not, I am sure a lot of people will regret the comments they made. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 8:56:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/25/2001 11:00:51 PM EDT
Another case of hunam nature causing people to jump up in arms before all the true facts are known.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:23:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ParaPyroPig: Out of all the "Safety & Sobriety Checkpoints" I've worked, only a mere fraction of the people checked were pissed, indignant, preturbed, whatever... The overwhelming majority were happy about it - "Thanks, guys - you need to do this more..." or "How many ya catch so far?" P3[pyro][:(!]
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I have never been stopped at a checkpoint, but place me in the pissed category nonetheless.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:24:06 AM EDT
MANAGEMENT AN OTHERS--Many "good" cops are standing in the gap for all of you (on a daily basis. I thought this was the last bastion of common ground where legitimate gunowners and pro-gun cops could meet in a friendly area--some of you guys are definetly anti-police and making it increasing hard for us cops to fit in. Many of my friends have already stopped visiting here. That is very sad!! We want what most of you want and there are a few of us who work the job in a conservative old american way. Just what is the major political stand here?
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 1:49:13 AM EDT
car54, The message is simple, cops are good unless they are violating rights. It now sounds like this guy was not violating rights and the people that were pissed will now probably be saddened just like I am.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 2:27:07 AM EDT
As the tyrants create more and more legislation (HOWEVER UNCONSTITUTIONAL)to make everything the people do as a criminal act, the people themselves will respond with force as they tire of the tyranny! The blame rests squarely with the tyrannical state, as their "unauthorized standing armies, oppress more and more, until the people will take no more!" Just my $00.02 TYRANNOCTUNUS
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 4:46:52 AM EDT
car54, just how exactly are most cops "standing in the gap?" Seriously. Cops exist to arrest people who have already broken the law. They don't prevent crime...they can't, there are simply not enough cops to do it, nor should there be. They can't stop crime in progress unless the crook screws up and stays around too long (most don't). So what they mostly do is find and capture those who have already comitted a crime. Now, it's nice that they do that and maybe some of those criminals will actually spend a significant amount of time in jail. But if a bad guy kicks down the door at 2AM, do you seriously think the police will arrive in time to protect me? Or just in time to fill out a report and have either my remains or that of the criminal tagged and bagged?
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 5:32:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By car54: MANAGEMENT AN OTHERS--Many "good" cops are standing in the gap for all of you (on a daily basis.
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LOL, who do you think you are kiding with that cr@ap? I've had police friends tell me they are just there to clean up afterwards.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:35:53 AM EDT
The whole "Us vs. Them" is never gonna go away. Everybody here probably has a story about being unfairly hassled. They probably also have a story about how they shoulda gone to jail " that night" but the cop was totally cool. I have lots of cops that drink large amounts of alcohol then drive home. Who am I supposed to call? As a small town business, can we afford to make enemies of our clientelle?
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:37:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By ParaPyroPig: And what rights, specifically, was he violating? Or even "infringed?"
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Amendment IV, The Constitution of the United States of America, ratified in 1791.
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- Et al, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, ad absurdium...[rolleyes] Good quote of Ben F., BTW. -It's one of my favorites! No flame intended, but you're mistaken. Contrary to popular belief, these aren't random events - they are announced (in Fl, by LAW) to the press a week prior, on radio AND newspapers, when and where the S&SCP will be. About 500 yards prior to running into the S&SCP there is a BFS (Big Phucking Sign) with TWO flashing lights on it. It states: "SAFETY & SOBRIETY CHECKPOINT AHEAD", further re-enforced by the zillions of flashing reds & blues ahead. No suprises, no ambushes, no (*in German accent*) "Your papers, please." If you don't want to go through them, then DON'T!!!!!!! -YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!!!!!!!!!!! Turn around and go the other way. Noone will stop you. NOONE'S 4ths are being violated. NOBODY sets up a checkpoint on a whim.
...grossly unconstitutional...
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-Not. I lost a brother the other day. BTW, He was on a traffic stop, not at a S&SCP. Not that it matters. P3[pyro][V]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 6:50:01 AM EDT
WARNING - OFF TOPIC REPLY:
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Seriously. Cops exist to arrest people who have already broken the law. They don't prevent crime...they can't, there are simply not enough cops to do it, nor should there be. They can't stop crime in progress unless the crook screws up and stays around too long (most don't). So what they mostly do is find and capture those who have already comitted a crime. Now, it's nice that they do that and maybe some of those criminals will actually spend a significant amount of time in jail. But if a bad guy kicks down the door at 2AM, do you seriously think the police will arrive in time to protect me? Or just in time to fill out a report and have either my remains or that of the criminal tagged and bagged?
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- Rikwriter's correct. That's why your fellow citizens with badges (cops) advocate the benefits of an responsibly armed populace. (the one's that claim to be cops and don't aren't cops - they're nimrods with badges). *sound of soapbox being kicked back into the corner.* P3[pyro][^]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 9:43:45 AM EDT
Sluggo ..thanks for the info...seems like a few assholes here got the idea to push their personal agendas regarding law enforcement vs civilians instead of remembering One of our best members Donny of Sableco...who has supported our sport never to my knowledge been opinonated or judgemental towards anyone here..Donny lost a friend and compatriot and let everyone know about it right away in order that they might understand any orders not being filled or questions answered right away..to use this trajedy to air your personal bitching on either side of this issue ..sucks..big ..time...Put yourself in the shoes of the guys who are close to this who read or visit this board..Perhaps a word to Donny of encouragement would be a good thing?..but ya actually have to have a heart for that ...anybody here qualify anymore...or too interested in your own personal lives...or sending Donny nasty emails cause you didnt get an answer to an inane question as soon as you wanted....out
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:00:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:22:37 AM EDT
Just for everyone's info, the reply from an officer above relative to going thru a check point, is not a one answer fits all situations in the various states.Here in the area of Virginia where I live, if you do not go thru the check point you are pulled by the chase cars/motorcycles deployed ahead of this spot.I witnessed this last Christmas.For some reason I still feel there is something missing relative to my IV amendment rights.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 10:54:26 AM EDT
3ps, it must be different in your state or city or you just don't know what the hell you're talking about. Just the other night I saw a safety check point and decided to go another way. I was close to home and knew the streets so I made a u-turn. Big mistake, 2 cars came in pursuit. I pulled over and got the whole LA treatment "driver throw the keys out with your left hand, driver get out and lay on your stomach, etc.." all at gun point no less and in the rain. The cops also shit themselves when I told them I am armed and have a CCW. They took my gun and one stupid son-of-a-bitch dropped it on the pavement (a $1200 Springfield TRP) adding a couple scratches to the slide and cracking a cocobolo wood grip. They run me and find me clean but still ask to search my vehicle, I say "No, you do not have my permission to search my vehicle without a warrant." I had nothing to hide but was feeling rather hostile at that point so why should I make their job any easier? Now they are really pissed and decide to search my vehicle without my consent as they think they have probable cause since I "fled the safety check point". So they find a couple of McDonalds bags which is my family's dinner and rummage through it, essentially ruining it. To make a long story short, a hour later after finding nothing criminal in my car or on me, or any criminal history on me, I get a stern bitching about how I can not "avoid" these check points and how I could lose my CCW and a "You may go". No apologies, dinner ruined, my clothes ruined, gun damaged, my outlook on LEOs even further ruined. These bastards could bleed to death in a gutter and I wouldn't stop to help them. I'm still pissed. What am I supposed to do, sure I could spend a few grand and get a lawyer but some free advice from a lawyer friend of mine was that I f*cked up by trying to avoid the check-point and the judge would most likely agree with the nazis, er cops I mean. You treat us like scum and expect us to look at you like you some kind of hero? Get a grip, wake up and smell the shit you work with.
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:07:48 AM EDT
Exactly why we do not like such stops. If you decide to invoke your rights, are areassumed to be guilty of something. And there quite honestly, isnothing you can do about it unless you are rich. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:16:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bobby Vincent: 3ps, it must be different in your state
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Holy Shit!!!. I'm embarassed. For what it's worth, I'm sorry, and I wouldn't have allowed that to happen to you and your family. Ya'll need to move down to Florida - after all, it is the Gunshine State!!! I have yet to give anyone with a CCW permit even a ticket. We usually exchange cards and go shooting!![:D] P3[pyro][^]
Link Posted: 6/26/2001 11:24:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2001 11:21:45 AM EDT by Aviator]
Originally Posted By ParaPyroPig: Holy Shit!!!. I'm embarassed. For what it's worth, I'm sorry, and I wouldn't have allowed that to happen to you and your family.
This says a lot about you Para. LEOs like you are certainly NOT the cause of our anger. Hopefully after seeing this, you understand why some of us are angry about the safety stops in states other than FL. Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]
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