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Posted: 11/22/2008 12:15:36 PM EDT
Is anyone familiar with this argument?  I heard this and I was definitely very surprised/skeptical.

Apparently, since illegal aliens do not have a SSN, they cannot file tax returns and cannot get tax refunds.  Thus they end up paying very high tax rates even though they are making very low wages.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:17:22 PM EDT
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:17:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fonzy934:
Is anyone familiar with this argument?  I heard this and I was definitely very surprised/skeptical.

Apparently, since illegal aliens do not have a SSN, they cannot file tax returns and cannot get tax refunds.  Thus they end up paying very high tax rates even though they are making very low wages.




Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:19:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fonzy934:
Is anyone familiar with this argument?  I heard this and I was definitely very surprised/skeptical.

Apparently, since illegal aliens do not have a SSN, they cannot file tax returns and cannot get tax refunds.  Thus they end up paying very high tax rates even though they are making very low wages.


I really do not mind that.  Since they are here illegally.  I doubt its veracity though.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:22:02 PM EDT
Bullshit.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:22:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fonzy934:
Is anyone familiar with this argument?  I heard this and I was definitely very surprised/skeptical.

Apparently, since illegal aliens do not have a SSN, they cannot file tax returns and cannot get tax refunds.  Thus they end up paying very high tax rates even though they are making very low wages.


Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:23:47 PM EDT
its a lie, we have one. he gave us what looks like legal papers and it passed muster with the leasing company but we have our doubts. anyway he may not get SS but his wife and three girl friends with babies all get welfare, free medical. he pays income taxee but gets it all back plus a tax credit
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:24:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:26:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.



The entire agriculture industry is manned by illegals making cash.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:27:07 PM EDT
As is the construction industry.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:29:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 12:46:36 PM EDT by Dutchy556]
This argument must sound wonderful to the libtard amnesty crowd. "see, LOOK at how much they contribute to our society, even more than REAL Americans.."





None of the illegals I've run across worked for anything other than cash...


ETA: I dunno how it works with larger businesses that hire illegals, but any time I've heard of small business owners, contractors or whatever hiring illegals pay is in cash.

Really, who gives a shit if they pay more in taxes than Bill Gates they still should have to follow the same rules regarding how you get into this country.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:29:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.



The entire agriculture industry is manned by illegals making cash.


So where does that cash ome from?

The farmers just go to the bank and get a big ass sack and go to the fields and pass it out?

What about when the IRS does their audits? Do you think they don't ask where all of those weekly cash withdraws went?

Sorry I've been in business more than 20 years and that just doesn't pass the smell test.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:34:13 PM EDT
I would guess that by filing for 22 dependents (why would it matter to them––since there isn't a 1040IL form for Illegals) on their Tax Forms, they will get almost nothing taken out anyway.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:36:04 PM EDT
Yeah that's why many of them have stopped working and are just on welfare, or just sell meth, or rob for a living.  


Oh, and I guess that's why so many of them are leaving too right?


And why so few new ones are coming in.  



Se hable Espanol?
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:36:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AFARR:
I would guess that by filing for 22 dependents (why would it matter to them––since there isn't a 1040IL form for Illegals) on their Tax Forms, they will get almost nothing taken out anyway.




Now that makes a hell of a lot more sense to me, than millions of fuckers getting cash every week.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:41:35 PM EDT
My bet is the employers take out the taxes on thier paychecks and keep it.

They are undocumented afterall.  Who are they going to complain to?
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:42:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


Yeah, why would they be illegal and work above the table?  Makes no sense.

Maybe some do in rare cases, but I've never met any.

Sadly, the f*cksticks in congress will never punish the companies that hire/enable illegals, so they'll still keep coming.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:44:26 PM EDT
No social security or state taxes on cash workers.

Those who do get a taxpayer ID number file tax returns like everyone else.

The only ones who pay more than legal workers would be those working with stolen social security numbers and claiming single-one for exemptions.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:48:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 12:49:15 PM EDT by killingmachine123]



Originally Posted By krpind:





Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:




Originally Posted By krpind:




Originally Posted By runcible:


Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.





Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  







I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.





That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].


Probably mostly the day laborers.











The entire agriculture industry is manned by illegals making cash.








So where does that cash ome from?





The farmers just go to the bank and get a big ass sack and go to the fields and pass it out?





What about when the IRS does their audits? Do you think they don't ask where all of those weekly cash withdraws went?





Sorry I've been in business more than 20 years and that just doesn't pass the smell test.








Any farming operation large enough to necessitate that kind of cash outlay on a weekly basis via the hiring of illegal aliens is hopefully smart enough to conceal it. I know the .gov is good, but any business should be able to cook the books to save a couple dollars at the least.





ETA: If they hire them out as private contractors to whom they pay cash, they should be all but free and clear from an accounting standpoint. No different than hiring out a bunch of HS kids in that regard.





 
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:50:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:52:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MonkeyGrip:
Yeah that's why many of them have stopped working and are just on welfare, or just sell meth, or rob for a living.  (yeah, why work for $3 an hour when you can milk the system or profit from crime, they see it works for Americans, why not for them?)


Oh, and I guess that's why so many of them are leaving too right?  (Some are leaving, usually because they rack up massive debt because companies are willing to give them credit cards, loans, cell phone contracts, all somehow with no credit.  Guess who pays for these losses the companies take?)


And why so few new ones are coming in.   (Too many intensives to come, why wouldn't they?  Dems won't stop em because they see potential future votes, Reps won't stop em because they see cheep labor, meanwhile, we are fooked.)



Se hable Espanol?  (Yo hablo un poquito, y ud?)


Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:53:46 PM EDT
Utter bullshit.  The reverse is true.

Read this and the discussion in the comments.

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2008/11/underground-economy.html
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:56:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By killingmachine123:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.



The entire agriculture industry is manned by illegals making cash.


So where does that cash ome from?

The farmers just go to the bank and get a big ass sack and go to the fields and pass it out?

What about when the IRS does their audits? Do you think they don't ask where all of those weekly cash withdraws went?

Sorry I've been in business more than 20 years and that just doesn't pass the smell test.


Any farming operation large enough to necessitate that kind of cash outlay on a weekly basis via the hiring of illegal aliens is hopefully smart enough to conceal it. I know the .gov is good, but any business should be able to cook the books to save a couple dollars at the least.


ETA: If they hire them out as private contractors to whom they pay cash, they should be all but free and clear from an accounting standpoint. No different than hiring out a bunch of HS kids in that regard.
 


What do you think is the most expensive expense any company has? Think it might be employees?

Do you HONESTLY expect me to believe a company can "cook the books" to eliminate that expense while showing large cash withdraws. AND THEN that company would have to pay the income taxes on those withdraws themselves. That is how it works.

As far as making them 'contractors" the IRS will let you do that UNTIL those contractors, that you have to supply SSN for, don't file and pay. Then the IRS will go to the "employer" and audit them for compliance.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:57:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.



The entire agriculture industry is manned by illegals making cash.


So where does that cash ome from?

The farmers just go to the bank and get a big ass sack and go to the fields and pass it out?

What about when the IRS does their audits? Do you think they don't ask where all of those weekly cash withdraws went?

Sorry I've been in business more than 20 years and that just doesn't pass the smell test.




The business works some jobs for cash which is used to pay the workers.  Businesses don't need to pay social security, nor benefits, nor unemployment when the work slows down.  This more than makes up for a deduction.  Just because you don't do it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 12:59:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.




Most of the roofing contractors, house rough-in framers, concrete workers are "off the books' and working for cash.

You are in Texas, get some bids for getting your house re-roofed.  Get one from a quality reputable roofer and one from someone using cash only illegals.  Submit those to your insurance company and see who they make you use.....
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:03:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By krpind:




I guess you missed the part where 30 million people crossed the border with tacit government approval.

The Feds just don't care.  It's good for bidnez.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:08:53 PM EDT
its a bogus made up stinkin' hippy argument if ever there was one. Anyone familiar with our tax system knows this...i fucking hate retarded perpetuity...
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:09:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TxLawDog:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.




Most of the roofing contractors, house rough-in framers, concrete workers are "off the books' and working for cash.

You are in Texas, get some bids for getting your house re-roofed.  Get one from a quality reputable roofer and one from someone using cash only illegals.  Submit those to your insurance company and see who they make you use.....


I'll ask you too, where does all of this cash come from?

I might believe companies that ONLY deal with homeowners and do no business with other businesses might be able to pull this off, but I hate to tell y'all 99% of the business that hires labor is between 2 businesses not a business to individual transaction.

So y'all expect me to believe all of these millions of illegals are making a living off of such a small percentage of the economy. That is something else that doesn't pass the smell test.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:12:17 PM EDT


Originally Posted By krpind:



Originally Posted By TxLawDog:


Originally Posted By krpind:


Originally Posted By runcible:

Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.



Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  




I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.



That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].

Probably mostly the day laborers.









Most of the roofing contractors, house rough-in framers, concrete workers are "off the books' and working for cash.



You are in Texas, get some bids for getting your house re-roofed.  Get one from a quality reputable roofer and one from someone using cash only illegals.  Submit those to your insurance company and see who they make you use.....





I'll ask you too, where does all of this cash come from?



I might believe companies that ONLY deal with homeowners and do no business with other businesses might be able to pull this off, but I hate to tell y'all 99% of the business that hires labor is between 2 businesses not a business to individual transaction.



So y'all expect me to believe all of these millions of illegals are making a living off of such a small percentage of the economy. That is something else that doesn't pass the smell test.



your logic assumes that only one house is built per day in this country...





 
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:22:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 1:23:35 PM EDT by krpind]
Originally Posted By -edgecrusher-:
your logic assumes that only one house is built per day in this country...

 


LOL

How do you figure that?

I can tell you the NO homes are build in Texas that aren't a business doing it. Not if they have a construction loan anyway. You have to name a builder and a homeowner cannot be their own builder.
A VERY small percentage of the labor market in this country is between a individual and a business. Yes home builders are businesses.

How much did you spend on labor this month?
I probably spent a couple of hundred at most......centainly a HUGE amount less than my company spent on labor this month.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:35:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fonzy934:
Is anyone familiar with this argument?  I heard this and I was definitely very surprised/skeptical.

Apparently, since illegal aliens do not have a SSN, they cannot file tax returns and cannot get tax refunds.  Thus they end up paying very high tax rates even though they are making very low wages.





Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:36:48 PM EDT


Originally Posted By krpind:



Originally Posted By -edgecrusher-:

your logic assumes that only one house is built per day in this country...



 




LOL



How do you figure that?



I can tell you the NO homes are build in Texas that aren't a business doing it. Not if they have a construction loan anyway. You have to name a builder and a homeowner cannot be their own builder.

A VERY small percentage of the labor market in this country is between a individual and a business. Yes home builders are businesses.



How much did you spend on labor this month?

I probably spent a couple of hundred at most......centainly a HUGE amount less than my company spent on labor this month.



my point being that the semantics of your argument mean nothing to businesses that need cheap labor. Without a SSN an employer (who has an EIN) cannot legally tax an illegal alien/immigrant. it would be stupid for both parties to do such and makes no sense at all. Cash and carry is how they work together, there are millions of small businesses doing this, let alone corporations.





 
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:38:08 PM EDT
Absolute bullshit. They suck the blood out of every free service and social program they can get their fangs into.



Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:49:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By -edgecrusher-:
your logic assumes that only one house is built per day in this country...

 


LOL

How do you figure that?

I can tell you the NO homes are build in Texas that aren't a business doing it. Not if they have a construction loan anyway. You have to name a builder and a homeowner cannot be their own builder.
A VERY small percentage of the labor market in this country is between a individual and a business. Yes home builders are businesses.

How much did you spend on labor this month?
I probably spent a couple of hundred at most......centainly a HUGE amount less than my company spent on labor this month.



When a general contractor opens bids for work from a sub-contractor, you know that the sub only has to meet the cost and time for completion to be paid.  As long as his work meets code/specs and is on time and budget, where that sub gets his labor from is his business.  For subdivisions that were being built on spec and being overseen by a general contractor, most of the subs had illegals on their jobsites because they could bid the job cheaper.  With no FICA or Workman's Comp to pay those subs were almost always the low bidder.

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:56:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fonzy934:
Is anyone familiar with this argument?  I heard this and I was definitely very surprised/skeptical.

Apparently, since illegal aliens do not have a SSN, they cannot file tax returns and cannot get tax refunds.  Thus they end up paying very high tax rates even though they are making very low wages.



A little fly in the ointment. When an employer takes money out of an illegal aliens paycheck and sends it to the IRS, if it doesn't match up to a number and name the money is sent back to the employer who usually keeps it. Ya think they investigate and fire the illegal, hell no, they just keep the deductions. Another incentive to hire illegals for the employer.

But most illegals are off the grid and getting paid cash. IF you figure in the free medical care they receive (been to a hospital ER lately?), the property taxes the don't pay, the fact they use our schools and don't pay (property taxes in Oklahoma), I think they got a pretty good deal even if the lose some taxes taken out.

Hell, once the Obamamesiah gets me my free medical care I can quit paying for insurance and start living the good life like the illegals.

The strain the illegals are putting on our health care, schools, mortgage crisis, etc. are far and above any money they are putting back into the system.

They need to be removed and sent back home, period.



Link Posted: 11/22/2008 1:58:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By krpind:




I guess you missed the part where 30 million people crossed the border with tacit government approval.

The Feds just don't care.  It's good for bidnez.


It's good for GW's contributors.  It's not good for a lot of business, and it isn't good for America.  But GW doesn't care.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:07:57 PM EDT
http://www.immigrationforum.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=724

I have worked with numerous illegals who had false documents and were able to get hired at large restuarant chains. The ID they showed the boss, was not the one they showed to social services and some had another to show the police.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:15:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By krpind:
Originally Posted By runcible:
Most illegals I've come in contact with work off the books, cash only.

Can't see how they're paying higher taxes than me.  


I'm not saying that you are wrong, because I really don't know. I can however tell you this. For every dollar that is paid in cash to employees that is a dollar that didn't get deducted from the income of the employer.

That fact makes it VERY fucking unlikely that millions are working for cash "off the books". There are probably some.....but not a lot [that have jobs they go to everyday].
Probably mostly the day laborers.



The entire agriculture industry is manned by illegals making cash.


So where does that cash ome from?

The farmers just go to the bank and get a big ass sack and go to the fields and pass it out?

What about when the IRS does their audits? Do you think they don't ask where all of those weekly cash withdraws went?

Sorry I've been in business more than 20 years and that just doesn't pass the smell test.




One I see just pay his 3 illegals with cash/check from his personal account
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:16:13 PM EDT
Obama and the dems will without a doubt give amnesty to 15 to 20 million illegal aliens just so thay can secure their agenda for the next 8 years.Yea,allow all the mexicans to become US citizens so they can help the dems vote away all our constitutional rights.  Fuck Obama and the dems.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:21:07 PM EDT
Regarding cash, it's tough for the government to enforce.  There are millions of farms in the USA, and hundreds of thousands of other possible job sites.  The IRS can't be everywhere, nor can they audit everyone.  I once heard secondhand that a Georgetown University tax accounting professor told his students "play the audit game––you'll almost never get caught, and if you are it's just a fine."  

The highest rate of tax compliance in most First World countries is among government employees.  
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:21:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2008 2:24:27 PM EDT by SilentType]
Originally Posted By fonzy934:
Is anyone familiar with this argument?  I heard this and I was definitely very surprised/skeptical.

Apparently, since illegal aliens do not have a SSN, they cannot file tax returns and cannot get tax refunds.  Thus they end up paying very high tax rates even though they are making very low wages.


No. Individual Income is taxed and you get a tax return based on your income, marital status, and dependents (among other things). What you pay in Sales Tax is NEVER returned to you.  

All illegals pay is sales tax for the items they purchase. That's it.  Illegal aliens CAN NOT be W2'd by employers without risk to the employers so MOST are paid "off the books."  If they give false Social Security numbers they are breaking the law again and are criminals.
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:23:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By trwoprod:
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By krpind:




I guess you missed the part where 30 million people crossed the border with tacit government approval.

The Feds just don't care.  It's good for bidnez.


It's good for GW's contributors.  It's not good for a lot of business, and it isn't good for America.  But GW doesn't care.


That would be the same GW who said the "Constitution" is just a piece of damn paper.
GW can kiss my ass on the way out!

Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:45:05 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 2:56:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2008 3:02:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gunnygumball:
Obama and the dems will without a doubt give amnesty to 15 to 20 million illegal aliens just so thay can secure their agenda for the next 8 years.Yea,allow all the mexicans to become US citizens so they can help the dems vote away all our constitutional rights.  Fuck Obama and the dems.


McCain planned to do the same thing. Kind of sucked that the biggest turncoat in the GOP just happened to be representing the party in the general election.
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