If someone is walking over to you with rolled up sleeves and clenched fists ready to pound you to oblivion...

If a mugger confronts you in your driveway...

Draw and shoot in one motion. Do not draw and wave, saying "Stand back now, I've got a gun..."

Why? Because they will live to see another day, and know that you have a gun. So, they may be back, but armed with that knowledge.

What do you think? Is this logical?

I learned that you should not point a gun at something unless you are going to shoot it. I guess it would apply in this situation. No reason to pull unless you are going to shoot.

edited to add: On the same note, you better truly fear for your life before you shoot. You can't take the bullet back.

i would think that it would put you in an untenable legal position.  to the best of my understanding, you are not legally defending your life until battery has begun, or if the assailant is assaulting you with a deadly weapon.

sound reasoning at the survival level--you'd live, but do time.

then again, hun is the guy who would have the real legal answer.

I Florida if you are not in fear for your life you had better not fire. And remember the police and court system will decide if you were in fear of your life, not you. Laws are made to protect the criminal from the victim.

If your a young guy and have the ability to run away or do anything other than shoot you are gonna face a trial. To use deadly force you must be in fear of serious bodily harm or death.

I agree with Offspring that unless your willing to pull the trigger there is no reason in drawing a gun. I was taught that you do not use a gun to intimidate, it will only show that you have a weakness of not being sure you want to actually shoot, and this may be exploited by BG and allow him/her to disarm you and use it against you. So unless you want to shoot the BG keep your gun to yourself. My 0.02$

just to clarify, i do agree that drawing is a prelude to firing, not some intermediate deterrent step.  i was taught never do draw until the decision to shoot had been made.

however, in the scenarios given, i think one would be incurring legal liability by not announcing the capability to defend one's self with deadly force unless battery had already begun.

I think you better give the man the chance to stop before you pull the trigger.  Wouldn't want to spend a few years in prison because I couldn't justify the action to a bunch of old people and housewives.

Besides, as Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven: Killing a man is a hell of a thing.

And if a criminal knows you have a gun they are most likely to look for easier prey, so I'm not sure that argument holds.

Thug approaches and threatens you.

You pull your piece to scare him.

He runs away, and then calls the cops saying there's a maniac waving a gun around, giving your description.

Cops haul you off and you lose your permit.

Nope.  If it is drawn it is because the situation is serious enough to warrant deadly force in self defense.  BTW, if I draw and he runs away [b]I[/b] will immediately call the Law to avoid the scenario described above.

I'm glad the police don't use this line of thinking...  There is a continueum of force.  If you can remove yourself from the situation, do so... that is the law in NY unless you happen to be in your home.  I seem to remember the sheriff's office advising us if possible let them know you are armed and will use your weapon if needed - clearly this is not an option in all cases.

I was in a situation where I was downtown one night around 1:00 in the morning walking to my car in my Tuxedo.  Four urban gentlemen started approaching me from all sides asking if I could give them some money for the bus.  There was no time to warn them, there was no way to escape them.  My one choice was to pull my weapon and display it at low ready while making a slow turn so they all could see it.  Message driven home, they left the area, I got to my car and got out of there.  I don't think firing would have been the right choice, and had I not drawn my weapon I would have been mugged and lost not only my money but my weapon as well.

Its all well and good to talk theory here, but that didn't survive 5 seconds of a real world situation for me.  I acted on instinct and I'm alive and well today.

I was in Portland, OR some months ago outside a nightclub on a Sat night. I saw in front of my eyes a young guy walk up to another guy and with one swift stroke bash his head on the concrete sidewalk. An ambulance came to get the poor victim to a hospital, but honestly I don't think he was still alive.

Assaults can come quickly and to wait for someone to be beating you, well it's your call.

If you have clear "Shoot" situation, it's best to draw and fire as fast as you can since you are probably behind on the force curve if it's that clear. In Tennessee the use of or threat of the use of deadly force or force that could reasonably be expected to cause serious bodily injury is a "Shoot".
Unfortunatley, most of the time things aren't that clear. If it's possible I like to draw and hold my gun behind my leg, behind the car, behind the whatever is available. That way, my gun is already out if dude reaches for something. At that time I will put my front sight on his shirt and wait to see his weapon. I never want to see a weapon in someone's hand when my gun is still in the holster if I can help it.
 This has worked well for me and I have found that peole who don't really mean you any harm don't notice when you get your gun out and hold it concealed.
 On the other hand, predatorial types instantly recognize what you just did and make some kind of comment about it. It also wipes away their attitude and makes them get testy.
 One Christmas season a long time ago I was leaving a party downtown very late. I was walking a female to her car and was standing there talking to her for just a second when lo and behold here come two prowlers across the parking lot.
 She had her back to them. One of them went behind a dumpster and I figure he is taking a leak. He comes out from behind the dumpster with a large bottle in his hand.
 I'm like please. They are at about 15 yards when they start to fan out so I stepped to the side of the female and unzipped my jacket at them. The one guy threw the bottle down and the other guy made a comment about a "pistol play". I said "I don't have a pistol". They were fools but not damn fools.
 If the jacket thing hadn't convinced them, I would have drawn and fired on bottle man before he got within seven yards without further comment.
 I don't think there is a written in stone way to handle things since every situation is different. I would not draw and point a gun at someone there is no legal way I could shoot. The problem is you don't know what the other guy has and what he is willing to do, or when a situation will turn from a drunk idiot talking shit into a drunk aggressor waving a pistol. You can always put your gun back in the holster.
 

Pics?!? [:D]

At Thunder Ranch, Clint Smith gives an excellent 4+ hour lecture on this and other issues.  I can't give you the whole thing, but here is a small part.

If you fear for your life and feel that you must use deadly force to save yourself, you would pull your gun and holler, "Drop the weapon!!"

You do this for several reasons, amoung them is, "He might obey you".  If he does, that is, he drops his weapon and leaves, you have saved your life without firing a shot.  Clint calls this the "Best Scenerio", that is, you have solved the problem without having to shoot anyone.

If he doesn't stop after you have yelled, you may have to shoot him to stop him.  If this happens, you will go to court.  Perhaps a witness will testify, "I heard the guy at the defence table yell, "Drop the weapon!!".  I guess he was trying to not have to shoot the bad guy."  This might save you from a conviction.

But remember, you aren't trying to "scare" him, you are trying to STOP him.  As Clint says, "If you want to scare him, get a rubber mask."

This is a very big subject.  I paid a lot of (well spent) money to get trained.  You should do the same.

And don't risk your life on internet advice from people that have never been properly trained.  They won't be spending time in the cell with Big Bubba.  You will, if you make the wrong decision.

In Florida you can also face jail time for just pulling the weapon even if you had no intention to pull the trigger. I think it falls under the "5-10-25 to life" law.

This is completely asinine. Hundreds of firearms are pulled daily and not fired. More crimes are stopped by not firing than firing.

Pulling your weapon should only mean you are "PREPARED" to fire and destroy what you are aiming at. Just because you remove it from the holster does not mean you have to pull the trigger.

I gotta wonder if you even carry or maybe you just got out of the CCW class and think you got it all wired. JEEZ!

If you are waiting for the decision to shoot to pull your weapon, it's already too late.

I think it is pretty fucked up when citizens can go to jail for just brandishing a firearm, and cops are regularly wasting people with little or no provocation, or none(oops factor). And not one of them every has to face any consequinces for their actions. Other than "paid administrative leave" until things blow over.

Edited to add: At least the LEO's went home safely.[:\]

Perhaps you would like to give us links to these stories?

Or perhaps you don't know what you are talking about?

In CA the following link describes when deadly force can be applied (see section 3)

[url]http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf[/url]

It's a bit convoluted, but basically boils down to "Hey jury person, what would you do?"

CW

Well, here in Texas you may display your weapon as a threat of deadly force, to stop deadly force.  And it does not "constitute the use of deadly force."  IOW, it is legal.



[red]*[/red] I used the "$" as I don't have the right symbol.

Gotta love Texas!

The NRA magazine First Freedom has reported many times that just the display of weapons has stopped crimes.

Also, here in Texas, you don't have to wait until the POS bashes your head in with a bat before ventilating him.  

That's PC $9.31, if you want to look it up.[:D]

Also, this

may not warrant the use of deadly force.  As I understand it, the law is not designed to keep you from an ass whoopin'.  But I've read where folks have shot unarmed (clenched fists) POS and were not prosecuted.  Guess it all depends on how you [b]and the law[/b] interpret the threat.

I took my CHL from Sammy Miller.  He works in the DA's office and had two attorneys from that office lecture my class.  Very informative.

I think for a twenty year-old, you are wasting MIPS processing this logic when you should be hitting the books for a good paying career. You are entrusted not to only vote pro-gun but to be a major campaign contributor for pro-gun candidates. The future of the constitution is in your hands.

Old Painless, Shit like this happens too often here in Alaska. And there are only 500,000 in this whole state. A friend of mine a few years ago "fell" down the stairs at the station while he was handcuffed, broke his neck. Nothing ever happens to LEO's because of their actions. If you haven't read any of the national stories of persons getting shot in the back on their own property, or a Leo "accidently" drawing his pistol instead of a taser or any of the other such stories you must simply have your head stuck in a very dark place. (Say hi to the nice LEO everyone)

I'll second that! [shock]

Helldoggy, its not the tux I wear just for you sillyboy! [kiss]

+1, no substitute for proper training. The way I used to think the law was was far from what I learned in a concealed carry course.

There's a Baptist nightclub in PDX? Ah, found [url=http://www.aceofhearts.org/]it[/url].

No.

Fuck you! [:D]

It doesn't happen very often in Texas.  If it does, the police officers are held accountable.



I'm sorry for your loss.  I, however, tend to hang around with a better class of people.  None of my friends have ever been arrested.



That statement is silly.  Many examples of criminal behavior resulting in LEOs being arrested and convicted can be seen.  Good cops [u]hate[/u] bad cops and will hold them accountable when caught in criminal behavior.



Sure I've seen such stories.  They are investigated and the officers are held accountable, if guilty of a crime.  They ought to be.

And my head is securely on my shoulders.  In the clear light of day.



You bet.  I'm retired, but proud of my service.  I was a good cop.  I served proudly and bravely.  I've seen things you can never imagine.  I've put evil men, evil beyond your greatest fear, in prison.

There is nothing in my career to be ashamed of.  I am proud to be an retired Police Officer.

That's how a lotta stupid kids get shot out in Detroit.

They pull a piece to try to intimidate someone, although they don't realize the mental state of person they just pulled the piece on......now the guy is like "Oh, then shoot me than, Bitch."

Guy 'A' has to decide right then and their if he has the heart to do it. If he does'nt well, he's in for the morgue the following day. If he does it's murder 1. And this is almost always drug related or over some real menial shit.

IMO-In a physical situation, it's always better to fight or avoid. You might kick his ass, he might kick your ass.Albeit One of you may be hospitalized at worse, but not dead.

Only pull if YOU FACE AN IMMEDIATE LIFE THREAT.

Interesting thread with alot of advice some based on conjecture.  I don't really know the legalities and don't really care.

I have been confronted by bad guys some without weapons and some with weapons many times.  To date, I have not shot one yet though would have without hesitation every time I've been confronted with what I consider deadly force or chance of severe injury to me or others.

I've lived by a few golden rules more safety than legal.  IMHO, the only person legally allowed to have a gun in their hand in a threatening manner is a cop.  Anyone else is fair game for being shot by a cop or anyone else.  If you pull a gun and point it at someone you had best be prepared make it bark and count for not to do so or not willing to do so puts you in dire danger since many assholes will try to take your gun and shoot you.  Yes, I've seen this happen.  

Showing you have a firearm or advising you have one and are willing to use it is a valid tactic.  It's saved my ass many times.  It can diffuse a situation before it happens.  IMHO pointing a gun escalates the situation and the chance of mistakes being made on both sides go up dramatically.  

Nothing in the world scares a badguy more than an armed person who is calm and determined. You can get nervous and panic later but during the crisis show no fear or hesitation.  Learn a command voice loud, clear, calm, and filled with resignation.  "I will ..........." has saved my butt many times while not escalating the situation.  Intimidation doesn't always work and sometimes escalates a situation while resignation shows you mean business but are not encouraging it.  

In regards to the LEOs, if you are in the right 9 times out of 10 they will know it. If you behaved properly and admit nothing, they will work with you.  Admit something and you put them in an awkward position based on laws and regulations where they have no choice in matters.

For example, one night I get a call from a neighbor that someone is breaking into my van.  My handgun in my belt I rush outside to see what's happening.  The badguys see me and run shooting at me as they do. I return fire. No one was hit.  My wife calls 911.  Having a firearm on you when the cops show up is never a good idea for they don't know you nor your intentions nor do you know what the dispatcher has said.  I returned my firearm to my house.  The cops show up and calmly we talk.  They advise me two guys went to a 711 and reported someone at my location was shooting at them. I refused to comment on my shooting anything but told the story to include being shot at and showing where the bullets had hit.  When pressed on did I have a firearm and did I use it, I politely said to answer that I would need my lawyer. They conferred a minute and put out an APP on the two other guys. I invited them in to my home for coffee while they filled out the paperwork.

Yes the first thing a badguy on the run from you will do is yell for the police and try to paint you as the badguy. It's the oldest tactic in the book and one LEOs know well. That's why cops always put both parties undercontrol before sorting it out. They also know a guy with a family, at his house, and holds a job compared to to gang bangers is most likely telling the truth or hell they could care less if he is or isn't as long as they are not backed into a corner putting there job or reputation on the line by the goodguys big mouth.

You guys have those CCWs for a reason. If it is just so you can be cool, IMHO it's the wrong reason for you are asking for trouble if you are not prepared to use your gun.  Just having a gun on you carries a responsibility.  For your own sake if not prepared to use you gun when it's appropriate leave it at home for you endanger yourself and everyone around you by not being prepared to use it.

Tj

***Here in Texas*** there is no need to "wait until the battery has begun."  The foundatioin of the "use of deadly force law" revolves around the statement, "if the actor reasonably believes" their life or limb is in danger.

I don't for a minute believe that "if you draw you better shoot."  You need not draw until you BELIEVE you are in imminent danger but many a time the mere presentation of the weapon has diffused the situaiton.  This takes some serious and very rapid assessment of the situation.

There are no obsolutes in these situations. It takes and informed and rational mind to make the decision of whether or not to pull the trigger.

CMOS

Huh??  Anyway, its 10-20-Life law.  

Generally it is too close quarters to draw and fire.  I usually try to talk them out of what they would like to do.

Draw and fire is when you have no other choice.

However as a former LEO I have unholstered the weapon on the ready when searching premises etc.

[rolleyes]  Give me a fucking break kid.

The second part of this statement is absolutely correct.  Never brandish a firarm with the sole purpose of intimidation. Thats a kids/rookie/thug move.
When you draw the intent should be that you are going to shoot.  If someone is advancing and you draw, unless there is no time whatsoever you must give the guy a choice.  Yell "Stop!" or something to indicate you're gonna use deadly force.  At that point things change:  his next move will have consequences and you are now in control of that, which allows HIM to decide what happens next. If he's gotten the drop on you though, you'll have no time and you'll have to shoot immediately.

Let me condense my first post:

If I draw my weapon I am resigned to use it. It is up to the other guy to be intimidated.

Tj

Logical depends, The only time I ever had to pull a gun on someone I could have legally shot him dead but it wouldn't have been worth the hassle ! Producing a gun brought about instant cooperation making shooting him dead unnecessary!

Depends on the state for the legalities...

In some you have an obligation to run away...

In others, you can only legally draw if you can legally shoot...

In WI (and possibly elsewhere), you can DRAW if any crime is taking place (since the force restriction law governs USE of deadly force, not THREAT of deadly force) or if you are in any danger, but you can only SHOOT if you or a 3rd party are in danger of death or great bodily harm... And if you draw when you can't shoot, it makes legally shooting harder if things go south (i.e. if you draw, then he calls your bluff and draws on you)...

And in others, all that it takes is the commission of a felony to permit deadly force (unless these laws have changed)...

However:

IMHO it is a BAD idea to draw and shoot simultaniously unless you have no other choice... Remember: having the bad guy say 'Oh SH$T, he's got a GUN! and running off is a lot less trouble for you than using your weapon...

On the other hand, if you draw it's allways a good idea to be PREPARED to fire if needed, since as noted above some people are not scared by weapons, and will take advantage of your hesitation to retrieve their own...

In Florida it is illegal to brandish a firearm to gain 'leverage' in an argument. There is a mandatory 3 year jail term, if convicted. The law for drawing a firearm is the same as for using one, imminent fear of great bodily harm or prevention of a forcible felony.

If there is any way you can get away, you cannot draw a fire arm or shoot. The exception is the 'castle doctrine' which states that you need not retreat if you are within your home and the two above circumstances are present.

In almost every situation where there is any possible way to retreat you must do so or face manslaughter charges if you shoot.

I have a Florida ccw but I don't carry a gun, it just makes buying and selling easier. I avoid places where I might find that kind of trouble and I carry a cell phone and I'm not afraid to use it!

Nevertheless that does not translate to "you must shoot if the weapon in removed from the holster".

BONGO BINGO BINGO   DAVE A HAS THE RIGHT ANSWER


It depends on the state you are in.  Most of the answers here are bullshit.  Evry body needs to preface with the statement - In my state (Name of State) the law says xyz.  If you don't know the laws regarding the state you are carrying in, you damn well better not be carrying.  If you are giving advice based on your knowledge or conjecture or hearsay, you ought to at least say so.  Togive advice based on the laws of where you are to someone someplace else won't do him any good.

Learn what applies to you BEFORE you need to know and it's too late.

Hey, there's no shame, the page makes it look like a nice place. [:P]

i'll excuse your poor manners and stay on topic.  the way i was taught, the decision to fire is based on the continuation of aggressive action by the threat.  if the draw itself does not instantly change the behavior of the threat, bang.  if the draw does instantly change the threat's behavior, the OODA loop begins again.  or, as tomjefferson puts it, it is up to him to be intimidated.

that being said, hiramranger has more and better training than me, and i suspect better than you.  ergo, i'll trust his real life example more than your nonsense conclusion that "hundreds of guns are pulled..."

i also suspect that if his draw did not instantly change the behavior of the 'urban gentlemen', they would no longer be with us.  i'm sure that he will correct me if i'm wrong.

and for the record, i have never taken the CCW class.  i was taught by my father.

In self defense, you do not use a firearm to kill someone, you do not use a firearm to injure someone, you use a firearm to make the BG cease action that you believe to be an immediate threat to your life or the life of another party.  If you draw your weapon and the BG runs away or complies with your command to cease aggressive actions, then you have accomplished that goal.  

Sorry but some of your replies are funny.  If I have to pull my weapon, I will be or someone else will be in real danger of losing their life. I will give a hoot and hell what your state laws are.

I respectfully disagree. When I pull it out its for what I consider to be a VERY good/serious reason and I could care less what some words on a sheet of paper say(LAW).



The only thing that I need to learn that applies to me is SURVIVE.

Well I'm not a LEO if that is what anybody is thinking.  I took the CCW course for my county which was taught by a deputy sheriff on the job for 30 plus years and a lawyer, they covered the legalities of the use of force and the progression of the use of force.

My training is mainly limited to working with police instructors and practicing at their ranges, which most of the time is my club's range, but also includes extensive time on the FATS (Firearms Training Simulator) to work through various scenarios and force you to think how you would respond.  Seriously, if you ever get a chance to practice on one, do it.  I remember discussing just such a scenario with many officers and to the one they stated, if escape is not possible and they are far enough away that an immediate struggle for the firearm is not likely to occur, draw, keep it at low ready and make it known you will use the weapon.

I think my exact words were something like, trust me guys, its not worth dying over, go home.  And yes, call the police and let them know what happened.

A lot of good thoughts, and some shaky ones, too.

I think the point is that due to the many variables in a confrontation there is not a single answer.  As a holder of a CCW, we are expected to exercise sound judgment, and that means going to Plan B when Plan A is not appropriate.