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Posted: 12/29/2006 9:50:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Your scenario would have 2/3rds of the military upholding their oath without a second thought |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 9:52:33 PM EDT
[#2]
Okay but I just don't know for sure what that exactly means? |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 9:54:33 PM EDT
[#3]
IBTL
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Posted: 12/29/2006 9:57:09 PM EDT
[#4]
The whole scenario is just stupid masturbation anyway, as it can never happen in one fell swoop as imagined. It'll happen the way it's been going for 200yrs, one tiny bit at a time. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 9:57:12 PM EDT
[#5]
Take it a step further and say that we are facing the power of the entire military, do you think we have a shot? |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 9:58:27 PM EDT
[#6]
And I'd like to think there are enough worthwhile people left in this country that such a would-be dictator would be killed within months of his attempted power-grab.
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:00:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Well your right on every count there, its just that lately i have seen a tremendous disregard for what is "right", and i was looking for confirmation that there is still a small number of "good guys" still out there. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:01:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Or does he mean that they would just blindly follow orders? I like to believe that the military would for the most part be on our side in this very unlikely scenario. But, you never know. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:02:14 PM EDT
[#9]
in that case no. The 2nd amendment has been ignored. It's intent was to make sure that the people have any weapon that the military possesses.
"The people have the right and duty to be armed with superior firepower to anything the government is willing to use against the people, and without the government's knowledge or permission." -Orbital-Burn |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:06:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Don't kid yourself. There were plenty of military who did as they were told after Katrina. General Wesley Clark once said that if the US were ever hit with a WMD then that would be the end of our democratic government and the constitution. If there was a national disaster and our troops were ordered to impose stability through martial law then don't kid yourselves. Most of them would do it. Ask Bama-shooter about whether or not troops follow unconstitutional orders in a disaster. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:07:29 PM EDT
[#11]
The 2nd has been sufficiently neuterd to give the miltary an overwhelming advantage. That said having seen what now populates our military our odds are not impossible. We would just have to kill off air assets on the ground. I imagine a mass recall of prior service members would happen after power was siezed then they would round up activists, chemists, and gun collectors, and disarm any dissenting police forcibly.
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:09:07 PM EDT
[#12]
I'm ready to die defending my rights. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:13:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Ask yourselves this is it worth fighting for anymore? Try to give a better answer then where else is there? |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:16:45 PM EDT
[#14]
+1 I believe most mil and LE would blindly follow orders, regardless of their oath. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:16:51 PM EDT
[#15]
Here is my answer: Every major genocide of the 20th century was preceded by disarmament of the civilian populations. First there was registration, then licensing then confiscation. There were 170,000,000 people who were murdered by their own governments during the 20th century. The only way to prevent becoming a member of that club in the 21st century is to buy a gun and learn to use it. I believe that as much as I believe that the Earth is round and the Sun rises in the east. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:26:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Me too but then look what our society has become. Would you defend someone who: Spits on soldiers? Post on DU? Illegal immigrants? Racist of all varieties? Non-christians? Actively seeks to repeal the constitution? Politicians? Marxist? Welfare recipients? Furthermore what percentage will be against you or apathetic? Give you a hint its well over 1/2. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:26:16 PM EDT
[#17]
Yeah, all half dozen of them. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:28:13 PM EDT
[#18]
NO SHIT!!! |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:28:46 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:31:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Military, Cop , Politician, or Other? |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:37:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Look what a few jackasses have pulled off in Iraq.
Think about how many people really know how to shoot in this country. Think about how many scoped rifles there are in this country. No "occupying" soldier would stand a chance outside of a tank. It would be a nightmare if a large enough portion of the population resisted. No soldier in his right mind would patrol ANYTHING. So to answer your question, yeah theres a good chance we'd win. As long as Politician X stepped far enough over the line to incite revolution even assuming he had firm control of the military (which is very unlikely) they'd lose. You cant occupy a country from inside a tank or a jet. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:38:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Most of what has been taken from all of you already has been accomplished without you ever having any real means to resist it.
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:39:57 PM EDT
[#23]
TROLL
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:44:22 PM EDT
[#24]
On top of all of that is America's REAL power, the money spent by the middle class. That money would come to a crashing halt and would VERY soon eliminate supplies and funds the .gov would need to conduct this operation. We always hear about the Arab street and their responce. The real power in this world is the American people and their resolve. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:44:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Sorry if i seem to be a troll, thats really not my intention. Iv been reading over all the forums i posted this on for quite some time, and im an avid firearms entheusiast. I was just looking for a larger demographic than a single forum. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:45:19 PM EDT
[#26]
If you think they wouldn't roll on us with the whole inventory you are kidding yourself. Tell someone to resist when the muzzle of an Abrams s pointed at his house and a SAW is pointing in his wifes face. Bare in mind also if our government wanted to shut down communications and information exchange they can do so in a few hours. Iraq is a limited occupation at best. I doubt Americans on average are better shots than thier Iraqi counterparts either. Then thier is the issue of ordinance by and large we would only have what we can take from the military, if you want to deal with anything more than civi transport you need ordinance. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:47:33 PM EDT
[#27]
I would comply with our government and follow ATF guidelines regarding the old pump shotgun I currently own. I'm not even sure it works anyway. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:49:46 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:50:50 PM EDT
[#29]
I would defend anyone whose life was at risk because of their beliefs. The Bill of Rights was intended to protect the most repugnant beliefs and speech. If the Racists, Budhists or Marxists can be rounded up by one administration then Christians, Capitalists and Libertarians can be rounded up by the next. I don't agree with Racists, Marxists, Peacenics, Hippies, Atheists, Budhists, Muslims or libtards. But I don't believe that their rights or their life are forefit because I find their views to be repugnant. Our constitutionally limited republic was supposed to prevent the elected government of any political persuasion from subverting the rights of their opponents. Unfortunately, we have allowed our government to become a democracy and we have allowed our rights to be subverted. We have handed power that was reserved for us to the government and you're right, most people don't care. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:51:00 PM EDT
[#30]
AH, I love it when a thread is hijacked!
NOT.  To answer your question and to be UNLIKE the asshats in here that avoided it and called you a troll and those who want to debate an oath, My answer is "No". Good ole' boys with AR's, BOB's, 4x4, Hoardes of ammo and MREs, and a Coon Dog can not defeat our current military with Aircraft, Satellites, Tanks, Infantry, Bombs, Missells, FLIR, NVG, GPS, Fiber Optic Cammo and Chemicals. It just can't be done sucessfully. Sorry to break the big news to some of you, but it's true. Technology has made the paitriot almost unimaginable Can a group of guys with rifles and gear go up against super battelfield technology? You guys have seen the film clips on the 'net of the enemy in Afghanistan and Iraq getting their asses kicked. You guys watched the Discovery Channel and know the TECH our military has. You've seen the tactics deployed and you've seen things like Katrina and what happend there towards the citizenry afterward. Simply put, guys with rifles against "equipment" CAN NOT WIN. Flame suit on, fire away. c |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:51:26 PM EDT
[#31]
You have a low post count thus you are immediately suspected to be a troll or someones troll account. Get used to it. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:55:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Point taken, but everyone has to start somewhere no? |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:55:49 PM EDT
[#33]
This thread is stupid...
google 29 plams survey If you know any real life SF types ask them anybody that has dreams about taking their tapco ak up against a fire team is not very smart... if it ever comes to the point to where the bill of rights are suspended nothing is going to be reclaimed by engaging the troops... |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 10:55:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Nothing would happen in a vaccum though. You have seen the American publics reaction to our invasion in Iraq, bombings in Afghanistan, detaining of forgein terrorists and the like. How do you think the American public would react if instead tanks rolling into Fallujah they were rolling into Dallas? Or if instead of Apaches and Cobras attacking buildings in Tikrit they were firing rockets and missles into buildings in Dixon, TN? Wars, even civil wars cannot be won without support. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:02:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Cetainly. Just be thick skinned. Realize immediately that anything anti-Bush, anti-cop, or anything not 128% supportive of our military instantly brings out the troll comments. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:06:55 PM EDT
[#36]
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/419.html That survey is bullshit. This nails it. No. 45. and 46. I would swear to the following code: "I am a United Nations fighting person. I serve in the forces which maintain world peace and every nation's way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense." The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. A thirty (30) day amnesty period is permitted for these firearms to be turned over to the local authorities. At the end of this period, a number of citizen groups refuse to turn over their firearms. Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:13:36 PM EDT
[#37]
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/1995/vo11no20/vo11no20_survey.htm
Firing on U.S. Citizens? While all of the questions in this survey should have stimulated concern, the survey's final question has generated an enormous amount of attention: The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. A thirty (30) day amnesty period is permitted for these firearms to be turned over to the local authorities. At the end of this period, a number of citizen groups refuse to turn over their firearms. Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government. The survey results: 42.3 percent strongly disagreed with this statement; 19.3 percent disagreed; 18.6 percent agreed; 7.6 percent strongly agreed; and 12.0 percent had no opinion. In one of the footnotes appearing in his thesis, Cunningham quotes comments placed by some of the Marines next to their answers to this question: "What about the damn Second Amendment? .... I feel this is a first in communism! .... Read the book None Dare Call It Conspiracy by Gary Allen." "I would not even consider it. The reason we have guns is so that the people can overthrow the gov't when or if the people think the gov't is too powerful." "Freedom to bear arms is our Second Amendment. If you take our Amendments away then you can take this job and stick it where the sun don't shine! .... It is a right to own firearms for defense (2nd Amendment); I would fight for that right!" Based on the disagreement expressed by 61 percent of the Marines, Cunningham concluded that "a complete unit breakdown would occur in a unit tasked to execute this mission." |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:22:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Well pardon me if I don't believe it. Whats the standard penalty for refusal of orders? How many cops would lose thier badge, paychecks, and pensions for not carrying it out? How many Serbs, Nazis, Russian, and Chinese soldiers refused orders to execute civis? |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:23:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Look during the Russian Coup back in 1991. The government ordered in tanks to seize power and reverse Gorbachev's reforms. Yeltsin came out and called on people to resist the coup. Russians turned out in droves and the military refused to fire on them or to drive their tanks through them. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:32:58 PM EDT
[#40]
The cops would fall over each other trying to be first in line to kick in your door and take your guns. Soldiers and Marines would be far less likely to do so. Yes, they have badass equipment, but they aren't going to be using tanks and airstrikes in American cities, even an evil dictator would realize how bad a PR campaign that would be. Waco was awful and tyrannical, but it was in the middle of nowhere. If they were using tactics like that EVERYWHERE the populace would not suport it. |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:43:23 PM EDT
[#41]
"Well pardon me if I don't believe it. Whats the standard penalty for refusal of orders? How many cops would lose thier badge, paychecks, and pensions for not carrying it out? How many Serbs, Nazis, Russian, and Chinese soldiers refused orders to execute civis? If you think our servicemen are no better than nazis or commie conscripts COC prohibits me from telling you what think of you... |
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Posted: 12/29/2006 11:50:02 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
The cops would fall over each other trying to be first in line to kick in your door and take your guns. [/qoute] If they knock and act in a professonal manner, I'll hand over the crap guns I keep at my house. Now if they pile up kicking in my front door, I'll be wearing sunglasses(flash bangs), ear muffs(flash bangs), and a half face chemical cartrige(gas). I may die, but there will be major blood shed in the process. |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 12:04:33 AM EDT
[#43]
I would go straight to SteyrAUG's house and help him comply with the ATF guidelines regarding the old pump shotgun that he currently owns... that may not work. I doubt that a dictator like this would last long anyways, americans are way to cunning and rescourceful about killing politicians anyway and you KNOW they would try. Several asshats have tried to kill (and sometimes succeeded) our good politicians and this theoretical sucky one wouldnt fare any better. Think about it, how many assasination attempts were there on Hitler, a shit ton if i remember correctly. And one almost got him, i think it was a bomb on a timer in a restaruant that he was eating in. I wouldnt be surprised if someone close to him in the government didnt give him up, secret service agents are americans too and im sure they would be pissed if their leader ran genocide camps or disarmed the people, or arrested and tortured a bunch of political dissidents. Basically some big grand event is just a fantasy, it wont happen like that and i dont want it to. Its going to keep on the same way it always has. They'll take you rights away little by little and you'll like it to dammit! Seriously, instead of fantasizing about being a patriot hero fighting a domestic tyrant, ala Red Dawn style and furiously masturbating all the while; Hows about you write some local politicians and tell them how crazy and blood thirsty you are for the first one of em that jacks up?  It's good for people that think like you to have a govt. papertrail anyway.  |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 12:20:25 AM EDT
[#44]
In response to the original question...yes I do think we could hold our own...if we were the ones picking the battles, and by that I mean, shoot one or two well aimed shots, and run like hell so you can take two more another time. having a gun that can reach out and touch people at long range would probably be the only real way to do it...close quarters, soldiers will smoke you, flat out.
As for all the second ammendment talk....I swear that thing must be written in Hieroglyphics or some shit...I mean how else do you explain why so many people don't get such a simple thing. We have the right to KEEP and BEAR arms.....how does anyone with half a brain get confused on that? It must be in a different language, because the First Ammendment is comprehensible by everyone. Are we the only sane ones when it comes to the 2nd? oh and the last two questions on that survey...just a little disturbing 
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Posted: 12/30/2006 12:36:02 AM EDT
[#45]
Exactly. And those guys are almost all underfed conscripts, not citizen volunteers. They have much less vested interest in their people than US troops, and even they refused. Frankly, I don't think the military would solidly go either way; there's be a split. This topic actually came up between myself and a couple Army buddies (not yet military myself, but I've got my eye on a USAF commission in the near future). If ordered to fire on civilians or confiscate weaponry and the like without legitimate cause (shooting at Katrina gangs is not the same thing), they'd most definitely refuse. They'd both rather desert first. I know I would. In fact, if it were to happen when I'm an officer, I think I'd feel MORE inclined to rebel than just as a civilian, if for no other reason than I'd be getting orders to begin forcefully destroying the republic I've volunteered to defend. If the Commander-in-Chief is on the wrong side, I'll go with whoever my the chain of command is on the right side of the issue. And if there isn't anyone, F them, point me to the nearest base that's supporting the real America. To be honest, I would worry about fully active troops siding with wayward Feds the most. NG on the other hand I'd be surprised to see more than a handful of units side with the Federal government. You can talk about how we can't stand up against tanks, but I think you need to realize the United States military is made up of you. It's not a faceless broadsword wielded by the Communist Party, a la China in '89. Those Rheinmetall smoothbores would indeed be aimed at someone, and they would not be the citizenry. |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 6:57:05 AM EDT
[#46]
You're an Un-American piece of shit. |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 7:05:55 AM EDT
[#47]
Well, one the US Military typically sucks at is Asymetrical Warfare, especially when backed by a weak populace and weak politicians
So yes their is a chance it would work, the government would eventually lose its stomach and roll over It worked against the greatest empire on earth in the 1700s |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 7:17:53 AM EDT
[#48]
+1 Right on, IMHO. Zombies, though? Shiiiiit... bring 'em! 
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Posted: 12/30/2006 7:21:45 AM EDT
[#49]
A Revolution would work here now, we just need to be careful for what cause it is for and who is causing it. That makes a huge difference. Nathan |
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Posted: 12/30/2006 7:36:58 AM EDT
[#50]
The military assets under command of the governors would not sit idly by while a dictator in the federal capitol was saying he was the supreme power in the land.
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their oath without a second thought