If "Every citizen a soldier"...

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - If "Every citizen a soldier"... (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:13:27 PM EDT

Why do so many people get butthurt over American police having suppressors/ballistic shields/camo uniforms/cargo pockets?

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:14:39 PM EDT

[#1]

Saying every Citizen is a Soldier is like saying every Marine is a Rifleman.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:16:09 PM EDT

[#2]

Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:17:54 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

So... "Every citizen a soldier, except you, and you, and you..."

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:17:54 PM EDT

[#4]

Military is aimed against foreign enemies.

Police are aimed against their own citizenry.

Militarized police aimed against their own citizenry is bad juju.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:18:49 PM EDT

[#5]

I don't care what the police have as long as the citizens can have the same thing- which was the intent of the 2nd Amendment. To keep the balance of power.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:20:34 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Military is aimed against foreign enemies.

Police are aimed against their own citizenry.

Militarized police aimed against their own citizenry is bad juju.

How about well equipped police going up against well armed active shooter threats? Is it still bad juju to effectively eliminate imminent threats against other citizens?

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:20:58 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

A common misconception fueled by the group think on websites like this. The truth is, the vast majority of Americans don't care about the weapons, equipment or clothing used by police. LE is consistently among the top 10 most respected professions in the U.S..

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:21:15 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

Yeah, I do have somewhat of a problem with the "militarization" of the police. It seems like a little loophole someone might use to have the police be able to do what is not Constitutionally legal for the military.

I think some people go way overboard on paranoia, but I can see where they are coming from.

SWAT teams used to be very rarely used except in Hostage situations. Now they're used for every little search warrant in some areas.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:22:06 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I don't care what the police have as long as the citizens can have the same thing- which was the intent of the 2nd Amendment. To keep the balance of power.

Partly this and partly because we want to believe America is a better place. We shouldn't need a militarized police force to keep the public in line.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:24:39 PM EDT

[#10]

Love this...
There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:26:20 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Why do so many people get butthurt over American police having suppressors/ballistic shields/camo uniforms/cargo pockets?

If every citizen is a soldier, then we should be allowed to have the same weapons and gear as the police.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:38:03 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do so many people get butthurt over American police having suppressors/ballistic shields/camo uniforms/cargo pockets?

If every citizen is a soldier, then we should be allowed to have the same weapons and gear as the police.

With relatively few exceptions, you can. A badge doesn't give you a "Get out of NFA free" card.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:45:27 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Military is aimed against foreign enemies.

Police are aimed against their own citizenry.

Militarized police aimed against their own citizenry is bad juju.

Gee, I thought Police were there to protect the citizenry by upholding the law.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:46:35 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do so many people get butthurt over American police having suppressors/ballistic shields/camo uniforms/cargo pockets?

If every citizen is a soldier, then we should be allowed to have the same weapons and gear as the police.

If every citizen is a Soldier, then there should be some PT being conducted.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:50:51 PM EDT

[#15]

I hate to break this to you... but the militia died well over a hundred years ago.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:52:21 PM EDT

[#16]

behind every 45° blade of grass

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:56:07 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do so many people get butthurt over American police having suppressors/ballistic shields/camo uniforms/cargo pockets?

If every citizen is a soldier, then we should be allowed to have the same weapons and gear as the police.

With relatively few exceptions, you can. A badge doesn't give you a "Get out of NFA free" card.

Actually, it does. As long as it is the 'departments.'

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:56:28 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Love this...
There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people

Exactly.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:57:26 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Love this...

There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people

Police have no duty to protect anyone.

All they need to is take a report and call someone to clean up the mess.

Posted: 11/20/2012 7:58:47 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why do so many people get butthurt over American police having suppressors/ballistic shields/camo uniforms/cargo pockets?

If every citizen is a soldier, then we should be allowed to have the same weapons and gear as the police.

With relatively few exceptions, you can. A badge doesn't give you a "Get out of NFA free" card.

Actually, it does. As long as it is the 'departments.'

Yea, and I don't think they will let me have flash bangs, teargas sub guns like in the big cities.

Posted: 11/20/2012 8:33:27 PM EDT

[#21]

Lack of knowledge on the history of the subject, combined with the issues of our society.

Posted: 11/20/2012 8:51:12 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

I hate to break this to you... but the militia died well over a hundred years ago.

No... Not really.

Who is the militia?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311

"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are—

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia."

That means that anyone who meets the above stated requirements, and is NOT in the National Guard/Naval Militia, and is not excepted in the next paragraph, IS in the unorganized militia.

So .... Who isn't the militia?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/312

"(a) The following persons are exempt from militia duty:

(1) The Vice President.

(2) The judicial and executive officers of the United States, the several States, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.

(3) Members of the armed forces, except members who are not on active duty.

(4) Customhouse clerks.

(5) Persons employed by the United States in the transmission of mail.

(6) Workmen employed in armories, arsenals, and naval shipyards of the United States.

(7) Pilots on navigable waters.

(8) Mariners in the sea service of a citizen of, or a merchant in, the United States.

(b) A person who claims exemption because of religious belief is exempt from militia duty in a combatant capacity, if the conscientious holding of that belief is established under such regulations as the President may prescribe. However, such a person is not exempt from militia duty that the President determines to be noncombatant."

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:04:42 PM EDT

[#23]

My problem with the high speed, low drag LEO gear is "how much?" How much did it cost to outfit that unit with all that gear and for what purpose? Is it cost effective? Would that money be better spent on other services? It seems that gear gets rolled on pretty rare occasions, and even when it does, it probably wasn't necessary.

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:07:37 PM EDT

[#24]

Hell no, my three brothers are no where near being considered a citizen soldier. I don't think any of them have ever fired a weapon before. I'm pretty sure two of them voted for Obama and my oldest brother voted Republican because he makes a shit ton of money.

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:17:34 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Why do so many people get butthurt over American police having suppressors/ballistic shields/camo uniforms/cargo pockets?

Because you dont understand the origin of that saying.

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:22:04 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

This

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:24:09 PM EDT

[#27]

I think there are two different questions here. In my opinion, the police are citizens, and they work for citizens. They wear two hats. So, if every citizen is a soldier, then the police are also soldiers, but not concurrently. Just like you can't concurrently be a copy machine repair man and a soldier. You have a job, and you have an obligation to protect the nation.

As far as the militarization of police, I was just talking about this with one of the officers I dispatch for. I don't mean this post to be representative of his agency or mine, but he mentioned that right after 9/11, it seemed people wanted cops in all the high speed gear and fancy weapons. But, now people have swung back towards the traditional uniforms, and even to the soft uniform. The people want the job they hire the police to do done a certain way, and good agencies/cops serve how they are asked to serve.

ETA: By soldier, I don't mean professional soldier, or even guardsman. I mean the true meaning of the militia.

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:24:15 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

So... "Every citizen a soldier, except you, and you, and you..."

That's sort of hypocritical, don't you think? Your argument tellingly works against your thesis: If every citizen is a soldier, then why are we (as in "not LE") not allowed to be as equally armed?

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:28:17 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

Feel free to direct us to that part of the Constitution.

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:49:10 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

Feel free to direct us to that part of the Constitution.

I suspect he's implying the Constitution does not grant that power, therefore it's reserved to the states, or to the people.

I don't mean to speak for him, but I didn't get the impression he was saying the military was prohibited, but that it wasn't empowered.

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:59:23 PM EDT

[#31]

I'm unaware of a Constitutional provision prohibiting the use of the military to enforce laws.

Posse Comitatus laws exist, having been passed at the end of Reconstruction in order to remove federal protection from black citizens.

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:08:51 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I'm unaware of a Constitutional provision prohibiting the use of the military to enforce laws.

......

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways.

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:15:59 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens.

What part of The Constitution is that?

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:19:50 PM EDT

[#34]

Because the rest of the citizenry are denied access to those.

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:21:17 PM EDT

[#35]

The American people are getting tired of the control antics and the silent majority has about had enough already.

RR

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:23:15 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm unaware of a Constitutional provision prohibiting the use of the military to enforce laws.

......

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways.

I believe so. To the extent that Congress may make a law they may have it enforced either by federal police or the military as they see fit to direct.

Certainly we now have many more federal laws than was ever intended.

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:25:51 PM EDT

[#37]

I absolutely support law enforcement having everything they could possibly need to be safe and effective in their role.

I absolutely do not support legislation that forces law enforcement to massively overstep their bounds.

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:26:02 PM EDT

[#38]

I don't get butthurt that the police have them..........I get butthurt because the jackass American public makes me jump through hoops and ladders to get them, if I can even get them at all.

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:55:31 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm unaware of a Constitutional provision prohibiting the use of the military to enforce laws.

......

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways.

I believe so. To the extent that Congress may make a law they may have it enforced either by federal police or the military as they see fit to direct.

Certainly we now have many more federal laws than was ever intended.

Well now I wasn't saying that. What I am saying is that nothing in the Constitution says that the ARMY (read, military) can enforce the laws of the United States, therefore, it can't. Those powers are not granted.

The MILITIA(read, every citizen a soldier) may be called to execute federal laws, but not the Army. The Constitution distinguishes between the two, and I believe the distinction was made because it was believed that the PEOPLE would not enforce unjust laws, but that the ARMY might.

The Constitution itself generally isn't a document that says what the Government can't to, it says what they can do.

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:08:52 PM EDT

[#40]

The Constitution says what they can do, the BoR what they can't. Congress has the ability to pass such laws as are necessary and proper to fulfill their role in their legitimate realm of action. That includes creating law enforcement agencies or delegating certain enforcement actions to the military.

A militia and Army were the same thing. Standing armies were prohibited, and still are, which is only really reflected in how budgeting is handled as I understand it.

In any case the army has enforced the law in the US beforehand the prohibition against it is statutory.

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:16:13 PM EDT

[#41]

I just wish my department was as well armed as our criminals. I have better weapons at home than at work.

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:18:41 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

I just wish my department was as well armed as our criminals. I have better weapons at home than at work.

Most thugs are dumbasses at weapons handling, manipulation and shooting. So you have that in your favor.

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:29:53 PM EDT

[#43]

That was odd

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:37:34 PM EDT

[#44]

Damnit, Aimless!

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:52:19 PM EDT

[#45]

Giving a bunch of SWAT cops body armor and carbines doesn't make them the military anymore than giving football pads and helmets to your local junior high school football team makes them the New England Patriots.

If you have some lurking terror in the back of your mine that the police are going to turn evil and chase you around, face facts, a bunch of 1960s cops in nicely pressed blue uniforms showing up in a big clump at your house with their .38s and pump shotguns is not realistically that much less of a mess than if bunch of over multi clammed armored swat cops with m4s come roaring into your driveway while your browsing arfcom on the shitter with your iPad (which is gross by the way).

And if the big fantasy evil .gov round up of freedom loving Americans happens you really think it'll be the Podunk PD leading the charge?

"Okay boys, good job yesterday stomping on the Constitution, shooting family dogs and roughing up grannies. I know we all had a good time laughing at how surprised those dopey fat gunnuts were that we used those 4473 forms to round them up. Buncha pussies that couldn't make it as cops"

[insert noise of crowd laughing and slapping each other on the back]

"I know I know, all the crying from the jail had me rolling on the floor all night too. Course once they found out there's no wifi and snacks in jail things got ugly and we really haven't had much luck putting them to work since apparently their work experience consists mainly of playing on the Internet when no one is watching. Kind of makes you wonder about a career in law enforcement when these guys all work 9 to 5 making more than we do mostly arguing with each other and playing video games....I wonder whether my high school days would have been better spent reading books and stuff instead of giving the nerdy kids swirlies in gym class, but I digress..."

"Anyway as with any plan all did not go as according to plans. Even with the assistance of the Hicksville SWATteam, the county, the FBI and the Post Office and Bureau of Land Management tactical teams we could only hit so many of these fat pussies at once. Word got out, and while most of them can't shoot for shit they text faster than a 13 year old girl, so the rest of them know we're coming."

[grumble grumble fuck them]

"Apparently there is some weird thing with them where they all immediately run into the woods when frightened. We know mostly they fled into Obama State Park in the Obama Mountains. We had an easy time finding them from their constant arguing and the light of their iPads."

[snickering]

"So today we're going to round them up. We would have liked to have done this at night, but really only Ted's SWAT team has nightivision. So since Ted's 12 guys have the body armor, carbines and the one armored car we are going to use them as the fast reaction force. The rest of you us are going to drive up into the mountains in your police cars to locate them. I know we don't have enough shotguns to go around, but we have plenty of pistol ammo and pepper spray. Be careful, they all have Ar15s or Ak47s and a bunch of them have .50 or .338 rifles. We hear rumors they have hung two Wal Mart greeters they caught last night, but that's unconfirmed. We do know they stole 12 beer trucks overnight and burned down the Whole Foods from "Wolverines" being spraypainted all over the rubble. We think there are 400 of the up there and they're about a 1/3 military vets"

[angry muttering]

"I know it sounds a litte daunting and apparently while most of them spent the night drunk or crying, the few veterans have managed to blow all the bridges, block the roads with telephone poles, dig fox holes and make crude command bunkers. With the disappearance of those 14 Hostess delivery trucks we have to assume they have food now"

[more muttering]

"Okay okay if you guys want a smoke break go ahead, Ted, I want you and your guys to get out the maps in the meantime."

[shufflimg of chairs, stamping of boots, barking of snarling dogs]

[roaring of engines, squealing tires]

"Ted? Ted? Can you go out and check on why they are all driving away?"

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:55:13 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Damnit, Aimless!

That was odd, that wasn't a redirected link, the original link was some porn thing

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:56:44 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Damnit, Aimless!

That was odd, that wasn't a redirected link, the original link was some porn thing

Aimless...what is this sorcery amongst us

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:56:53 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Damnit, Aimless!

That was odd, that wasn't a redirected link, the original link was some porn thing

Yeah, take a look around the rest of the site.

Posted: 11/20/2012 11:57:50 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Our Constitution does not allow for military to police it's own citizens. Americans have a strong sense of honoring this and having our police simply fill in the roll of a paramilitary does not sit well with most.

So... "Every citizen a soldier, except you, and you, and you..."

No.

Except against our own.