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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:20:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:25:55 PM EST by Hank_Rearden1]
My wife is considering working an alternative schedule, which would require her to exit her secure building at night, after 9:00pm, at which time there is no security personel.

Her car is usually parked within 50 yards of the exit and the parking lot is well lit. The building is situated in a corporate capus area across from extended stay business housing and a major highway.

She is usually carrying a brief case, purse, and usually one other bag...all of which hang from her shoulder, i.e. at least on of her hands are usually free-- the other hand holds her keys and remote car door thingy.

Before completely clearing the building via the secure door, she is able to check her peripherals and scan the area where her car is parked. Once she clears the building, i.e. letting go of the door, rentry requires a badge swipe (it takes a few seconds).

In addition to the fact that she is a lovely looking lady and one could easily assume that she would be carrying the standard purse litter (i.e. ATM card, credit cards, cash, check book etc..) and maybe some jewelry... her propensity to be a target is increased due to her professional background (her field of work) and her partuclular employer (i.e., the building has no name on it, but if scoped out one could discern that it's not a typical office building).

Her employer does not allow firearms, typically (although this matter is being looked in to).

My initial impression is that pepper spray/mace is not a good alternative, i.e. if there are multiple attackers or if the attackers are pumped up on drugs, and I don't believe that stopping power is sufficient. I always thought of these sprays as being more of an offensive, non-lethal alternative to subdue or tame a perpetror or for crowd control, rather than being useful as a defensive assailent stopper.

My other thoughts include a retractable billy-club, knife, in conjuction with a blinding flashlight or loud noise gadget. (let's assume that retractable billy-club or knife are legal concealed weapons in my state).

Any thoughts.... your suggestions would be greatly appreaciated.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:25:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:26:31 PM EST by peekay]
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:26:04 PM EST
Tazer?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:26:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:27:15 PM EST by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Her employer does not allow firearms, typically (although this matter is being looked in to).




Do they search her purse?

Is her job worth risking her life, or living with the consequences of a rape?

Pepper spray is going to piss a rapist or a crack head off. That's all.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:27:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Tazer?



I don't see why a couple huundred thousand volts wouldn't do the trick.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:27:38 PM EST
A library card...

Chris Rock: "That shit is like kryptonite to a thug!'
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:28:29 PM EST
Either taser or this (they are ver effective when applied to the jugular)


Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:33:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:35:28 PM EST by Penguin_101]


I would get the leather and heated seats.

Now a real answer:

Why don't you (unless you have kids, your working ect.) go down and pick her up? Otherwise I would say tazer.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:34:20 PM EST
Tazer... hmm... what about multiple assailents? What are the effective ranges? Which brands?

Peekay: Who sells the tactical baton?

Mowtown_Steve: Her job helps us fight terror.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:35:16 PM EST
Why not pick her up?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:38:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By icantdance:
Why not pick her up?



That just isn't an option... she would be leaving for work in the morning, around the same time I do (she would be doing this three days per week). I watch our three kids in the evenings.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:39:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:40:38 PM EST by Mr45auto]

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
Tazer... hmm... what about multiple assailents? What are the effective ranges? Which brands?

Peekay: Who sells the tactical baton?

Mowtown_Steve: Her job helps us fight terror.




Taser, model X26c spendy but very effective. Civie cartridge is the LE training cartridge with range of 14' if I remember right. One shot only, you can change cartridges fairly quickly but it will probably drop the guy if he's hit. www.taser.com I know this from experience, to get certified we had to take the 5 second ride. There is NO way I could have fought through it. I've been peppersprayed and did fight through that right up until I could no longer see where I was going. The taser is immediate, fight over. Not 100% on everyone everytime but damned close to it.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:39:26 PM EST
Tazer's don't work reliably. Thick clothing can hamper their effectiveness, as can proper contact (which may or may not occur under stress).

Pepper Spray, as mentioned by others, is also not exceptionally reliable.

As for knives and/or battons, that would depend on how muscular your wife is and to what extent she has been trained with these types of weapons.

I would go for just packing a gun without permission. The only way her boss will find out is if she is forced to make use of the weapon, in which case her job would be the least of your concerns.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:40:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Peekay: Who sells the tactical baton?



I just found the pic on this page www.copquest.com/21-1000.htm#ASP_F16_16-inch_Expandable_Baton

You can find them at any gun show.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:40:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By icantdance:
Why not pick her up?



That just isn't an option... she would be leaving for work in the morning, around the same time I do (she would be doing this three days per week). I watch our three kids in the evenings.



Do you know anyone from the PD that can be there when she leaves?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:41:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:47:52 PM EST by Mr45auto]

Originally Posted By GimpyPaw:
Tazer's don't work reliably. Thick clothing can hamper their effectiveness, as can proper contact (which may or may not occur under stress).

Pepper Spray, as mentioned by others, is also not exceptionally reliable.

As for knives and/or battons, that would depend on how muscular your wife is and to what extent she has been trained with these types of weapons.

I would go for just packing a gun without permission. The only way her boss will find out is if she is forced to make use of the weapon, in which case her job would be the least of your concerns.




Not true, the X26 impulse will penetrate 2.5 inches of barrier INCLUDING body armor. This is not the contact stun gun, this fires 2 darts with straight number 8 fishooks that bite in and have a thin wire attatchment. 5 seconds per ride, and it's a mutherfooker.

The taser also has a visible laser for sighting as well as an LED tac light for target identification, both can be run together if you set it that way. If you dont think it'll be effective try one out on yourself sometime. I damn sure know it works.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:43:33 PM EST
She needs sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:44:13 PM EST
AIDS ?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:44:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:45:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Wow--reading the title I got a whole different idea. My wife scares me too.


Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:46:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Wow--reading the title I got a whole different idea. My wife scares me too.



Either way, X26 will handle it fine...
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:48:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:50:06 PM EST by Currahee]
Tazers are pretty big aren't they? Hard to conceal?

I think a contact stun gun AND a baton with some practice.

my 2 cents

The wife and I are both in a similar situation, no guns at work, not even in the car. But we leave at decent hours in good neigborhood so it's not a concern.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:49:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:50:38 PM EST by Mr45auto]

Originally Posted By Currahee:
Tazers are pretty big aren't they? Hard to conceal?

I think a contact stun gun AND a baton with some practice.

my 2 cents



taser is small, about the size of a .380 auto. Contact stun gun is BS and asking for trouble. Never get close if you dont have to. Also in a pinch you can drive stun with a taser (contact)

The old M18? taser was the size of a glock. That's obsolete now.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:50:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By GimpyPaw:
Tazer's don't work reliably. Thick clothing can hamper their effectiveness, as can proper contact (which may or may not occur under stress).

Pepper Spray, as mentioned by others, is also not exceptionally reliable.

As for knives and/or battons, that would depend on how muscular your wife is and to what extent she has been trained with these types of weapons.

I would go for just packing a gun without permission. The only way her boss will find out is if she is forced to make use of the weapon, in which case her job would be the least of your concerns.




Not true, the X26 impulse will penetrate 2.5 inches of barrier INCLUDING body armor. This is not the contact stun gun, this fires 2 darts with straight number 8 fishooks that bite in and have a thin wire attatchment. 5 seconds per ride, and it's a mutherfooker.



While I'm not certain of what type of tazer weapon was used, a few months ago police in my area attempted to tazer a suspect, but only one of the darts made contact. The other apparently deflected or somehow became lodged in the suspects coat. The suspect wasn't disabled at all by the tazer, but the officer's partner was able to render him subdued (and somewhat lifeless) with his side arm.

Another idea, one which I learned from an old homesteader in Alaska who knew more about bears than any other person I have met. A FLARE GUN

As he said to me "Ain't no critter in the world thinks it's natural for fire to come fly'n at 'em through the air."

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:50:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
Tazer... hmm... what about multiple assailents? What are the effective ranges? Which brands?

Peekay: Who sells the tactical baton?

Mowtown_Steve: Her job helps us fight terror.




Defending against terror or no, her workplace is a tactical nightmare! A lone woman with multiple bags that has a long walk after dark in a deserted parking lot that is near hotels and a major freeway?

Don't take offense, but someone could shove her into the back of a van, take off down the freeway and dump her body in a ditch and be 3 states away before the police will even accecpt a missing persons report. And there won't be any witnesses.

A tazer is going to be completely useless in about 3 weeks, when people's winter coats come out, and I wouldn't be very intimidated by a woman with a baton. One swing is about all she's gonna get.

Just something to think about.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:51:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 6:52:04 PM EST by Hank_Rearden1]
I appreciate the feedback guys, I like the direction this is going... as for bringing in a firearm without permission, that is a no deal... inside her building, she must go through several levels of securty screenings...they even have chemical-biological detectors. Anything she brings would have to be under permission of her employer.

Basically, I my sense is that she might very well be allowed to bring in a firearm...but they will most likely make her prove that she needs to bring it and say to her "well, how about pepper spry instead or taser, etc"... basically i would like for her to be able to raise good objections to the alternative suggestions they may pose.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:53:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By GimpyPaw:

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By GimpyPaw:
Tazer's don't work reliably. Thick clothing can hamper their effectiveness, as can proper contact (which may or may not occur under stress).

Pepper Spray, as mentioned by others, is also not exceptionally reliable.

As for knives and/or battons, that would depend on how muscular your wife is and to what extent she has been trained with these types of weapons.

I would go for just packing a gun without permission. The only way her boss will find out is if she is forced to make use of the weapon, in which case her job would be the least of your concerns.




Not true, the X26 impulse will penetrate 2.5 inches of barrier INCLUDING body armor. This is not the contact stun gun, this fires 2 darts with straight number 8 fishooks that bite in and have a thin wire attatchment. 5 seconds per ride, and it's a mutherfooker.



While I'm not certain of what type of tazer weapon was used, a few months ago police in my area attempted to tazer a suspect, but only one of the darts made contact. The other apparently deflected or somehow became lodged in the suspects coat. The suspect wasn't disabled at all by the tazer, but the officer's partner was able to render him subdued (and somewhat lifeless) with his side arm.

Another idea, one which I learned from an old homesteader in Alaska who knew more about bears than any other person I have met. A FLARE GUN

As he said to me "Ain't no critter in the world thinks it's natural for fire to come fly'n at 'em through the air."




I know the aforementioned case, he was shot first then tasered. Tasered while in a car, one dart missed. You must make contact with both darts. btw, BG was dead before being tased, he just didnt know it yet...a little too much cocaine.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:55:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Penguin_101:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By icantdance:
Why not pick her up?



That just isn't an option... she would be leaving for work in the morning, around the same time I do (she would be doing this three days per week). I watch our three kids in the evenings.



Do you know anyone from the PD that can be there when she leaves?



Actually, she can call for her employer's security to escort her... but since she is a "remote" site... it takes them over one hour to get there... and she is not always certain what time she would need to leave. Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:56:28 PM EST

My wife is considering working an alternative schedule, which would require her to exit her secure building at night, after 9:00pm, at which time there is no security personel.

Her car is usually parked within 50 yards of the exit and the parking lot is well lit. The building is situated in a corporate capus area across from extended stay business housing and a major highway.




There are NO males available to walk her out to her car...?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 6:59:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By Currahee:
Tazers are pretty big aren't they? Hard to conceal?

I think a contact stun gun AND a baton with some practice.

my 2 cents



taser is small, about the size of a .380 auto. Contact stun gun is BS and asking for trouble. Never get close if you dont have to. Also in a pinch you can drive stun with a taser (contact)

The old M18? taser was the size of a glock. That's obsolete now.



Good to know, the only tazer I have ever seen was quite large, pistol grip sized but wth a really big "forend." Never seen the contact ones used on anyone, my wife had pepperspray and a whistle, but help is allways close.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:00:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By icantdance:
Why not pick her up?



That just isn't an option... she would be leaving for work in the morning, around the same time I do (she would be doing this three days per week). I watch our three kids in the evenings.



Ok, I can understand that. I'm sure that crossed your mind anyway.

I'd say that her employer should do something reasonable to get her to the vehicle safely.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:06:08 PM EST
Could she leave a firearm at the entrance? Maybe the security folks at the lobby could store it for her.

CW
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:07:31 PM EST
I think the flare gun idea is outstanding... I think a flare gun may not even be considered a "firearm" by her employer...

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:08:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
I think the flare gun idea is outstanding... I think a flare gun may not even be considered a "firearm" by her employer...





Does the ATF consider it a firearm? If no, then it's not.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:09:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
Could she leave a firearm at the entrance? Maybe the security folks at the lobby could store it for her.

CW



Yes, she could. However, the security personel leave before she does (this, by the way is an idea being considered)... they would just have to aggree to allow her access to an specfic area for her to retrieve it.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:15:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
I think the flare gun idea is outstanding... I think a flare gun may not even be considered a "firearm" by her employer...





Does the ATF consider it a firearm? If no, then it's not.



Great questionm, thanks.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:19:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
I think the flare gun idea is outstanding... I think a flare gun may not even be considered a "firearm" by her employer...





Does the ATF consider it a firearm? If no, then it's not.


By that same reasoning she should get a flame thrower.

CW
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:31:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By clean_cut:

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:
I think the flare gun idea is outstanding... I think a flare gun may not even be considered a "firearm" by her employer...





Does the ATF consider it a firearm? If no, then it's not.



Great questionm, thanks.



Luis, they are not considered firearms according to the ATF, but I've heard of several occasions in which people were shot with 26.5 mm flares and the shooter was prosecuted for malicious wounding and attempted murder for some assinine interpretation of the law. Her employer may not have a problem with a flare gun, so it may not be a problem. The german 26.5 mm ones are very nice and quite cheap. They are single shot (like all of the ones I've seen) but you could affix a second cartridge to the side, side saddle shotgun style. I havent seen a taser I liked yet, but that doesnt mean you wont find something she wont like. I never liked the reload time, being in the range of 5-10 seconds as opposed to a breachloading flare gun that could be reloaded in 2 seconds or so if a second cartridge is side saddled. I've got a baton around here somewhere she could look at. Theyre not the greatest weapon unless you plan on training with it. Unlike firearms they are very muscle group dependant. There are several muscles in the chest, back and forarm which are key, though many women dont have these muscles developed enough to be useful. A baton is very cheap, but if you decide on one dont buy the cheapest baton you find. Their price is directly related to quality like many firearms.

If its any consolation, rob who you met at the gunshow, had to go through OC pepper spray training down at quantico. He said it was quite possibly the worst thing he'd experienced. Worse than a hand contact taser. He said that 2 seconds after he'd been sprayed he was in such excruciating pain that he curled up fetal position and rolled around on the ground for a minute. It took him more than a day to recover and get back full function of his olefactory sense.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:37:47 PM EST
How about this?
http://www.37mm.com/reviews/images/launcher2.jpg

That with baton rounds or CS spray would be awesome. That should fit in a purse/breifcase.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:41:02 PM EST
www.selfdefenseproducts.com/kub.htm

A. Has a dumb name, but is a damn good self defense keychain if a pimary deterent fails. Let her hit you with it once. It's worse then you think.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:46:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dation:
How about this?
www.37mm.com/reviews/images/launcher2.jpg

That with baton rounds or CS spray would be awesome. That should fit in a purse/breifcase.



What is it?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:47:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hank_Rearden1:

Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
Could she leave a firearm at the entrance? Maybe the security folks at the lobby could store it for her.

CW



Yes, she could. However, the security personel leave before she does (this, by the way is an idea being considered)... they would just have to aggree to allow her access to an specfic area for her to retrieve it.




If it were my wife, we would have a long discussion with the employer vis a vis their responsibility to provide security for the employees. If they are too cheap to provide security on scene, I would insist that they allow her to provide her own, i.e. the ONLY effective weapon for a lone female to utilize against a male attacker(s): A Firearm. They have a responsibility to provide a safe working environment, & they obviously recognize that responsibility, because they have multiple layers of security INSIDE the building. They have the same responsibility to provide a safe means of entering & leaving the premises, which they are obviously shirking. I think a good trial lawyer would absolutely destroy them in court, but your purpose is to ensure that it doesn't become necessary to file that lawsuit.

If your wife has, or can get, a CCW, all the company would have to do is provide a secure storage area (lockers, pistol boxes, whatever) for the weapon while she is on the premises. Better, they should provide good on-scene security, with cameras, roving patrols, guards at the entrance, ninjas lurking in the shrubbery, whatever it takes to safeguard their employees. But if they won't accept the responsibility to protect her, she certainly should not be denied the means to protect herself....

Get her the CCW, a reliable handgun with adequate power to defend herself, and lots of practice. Then figure out how she can carry the weapon in a manner allowing her to access it in an emergency.
A handgun buried in the bottom of a purse is of no use when SHTF. All of her other burdens (briefcase, laptop, books, purse, etc) should be on one of the little folding wheeled carryall things she can manipulate with one hand, leaving the other free to access the weapon. Then practice, practice, practice until she can draw the weapon & engage without hesitation.

I sincerely hope that she never has to use a weapon to defend herself, but if that time comes, I hope she shoots straight, & often.....
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:49:41 PM EST

Upper-dan black belt in Aikido ? (don't think they sell them in stores, though )
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:52:20 PM EST
What is it?

It's a compact 37mm flare launcher.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:54:02 PM EST
Knives require physical prowess, coordination, and training in order to be 100% effective. They also require an aggressive attitude so you can get in close and inflict lethal wounds. Thus knife fighting requires at least some comfort in hand to hand, boxing, etc. Most women and probably a lot cant honestly say they are comfortable in the melee. Men can just get pissed and start slashing.

I think pepper spray is the next best thing to a gun for the average woman, its simple, effective and doesnt require elaborate training. Its not 100% like a gun but thats what you asked. Self defense classes would also be a good idea.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:54:56 PM EST
How about this?



Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:55:35 PM EST
The husband is alway the last one to know...
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