tele-stock and flash hider?

I was told that after you do a form 4 on a gun it's a NFA weapon and there are no per or post-ban NFA weapons.......is this true?

As long as it is still semiauto only, the '94 Crime Bill provisions still apply.

In fact, I have read that if you convert a Pre-Ban to an SBR, it is considered a Post-Ban since they (ATF) consider it a new gun. I see no way to make a short-barrel Pre-Ban unless it existed in that form before 1994.

As long as the receiver is pre-ban, it can have pre-ban features when it's made into an SBR.  There have been some conflicting responses (mostly over the phone) in regards to this, but tech branch has made a written determination that an SBR made from a pre-ban lower is still exempt from the 94 AW ban.

The correct form to use to register a SBR is:
Form 1, ATF 5320.1, "Application To Make And Register Firearm". Need (2) FD-258 fingerprint cards, LE signature on rear of form, (2) passport size photos, and $200 payable to the US TREASURY DEPT. Form 4,  ATF 5320.4 is "Application For Tax Paid Transfer And Registration Of Firearm".

There are two types of NFA weapons which, regardless of date of manufacture, are exempt from the 1994 Crime bill.  First is a machinegun.  However for an individual to possess it, it would nee to be a transferable, made and registered prior to May 1986.  The other is an AOW.  If you have a virgin post ban receiver, you can register it as an AOW and add [i]some[/i] nasty features.  An AOW can never have a stock, so the telestock is definitely out.  Also an AR15 type AOW would require a forward grip.  With those two satisfied, you can add any additional assault features you wish (bayo lug, threaded barrel, flash hider)

I love how the ATF can't get their facts straight. Well, at least their is a written determination now.

But, how does this effect Post-86 Dealer Samples. If someone were to obtain a Type 07 SOT could they convert their Post-Ban AR-15 to a Pre-Ban M-16 with Bayonet Lug, Pistol Grip, Flash Supressor, Threaded Barrel, and Tele-Stock.

[Edited To Correct Error]

Personally, I would go the AOW route.

Post-Ban Lower Receiver
Pistol Grip
Pistol Buffer
Flat-Top Upper
M4 Profile Barrel
M4 Vertical Foregrip
Reflex Sight
Bircage Flash Hider
Threaded Barrel
Bayonet Lug

CC48510: A Class 3 FFL/SOT cannot manufacture or assemble machineguns, or AOW's, or even legally put pre-ban features on a post-ban receiver ('assembling' a post-ban SAW).

Although an dealer FFL or Class3 FFL/SOT machinegun dealer can possess a post-ban SAW for legal sale to qualified individuals, only a type 07 (manufacturer) can legally assemble a post-ban SAW, add the required LEO markings, and then sell it to other dealers or qualified individuals.

Only an 07/C2 (NFA manufacturer) can make post-ban machineguns, and also make and register tax-free any other NFA firearm, such as short-barrel rifles or shotguns, and AOW's.

Anyone (not just a dealer) can manufacture any NFA item except a machinegun, tax-paid, on Form 1.

I found this on the ATF website. BTW, their website is the best example of poor web authoring I have ever seen. Very hard to find information.

[list=1]

[b][i][*]Type 01[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Dealer In Firearms Other Than Destructive Devices.[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$200 For The First 3 Years[/*]
[*]$90 On Renewal[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 02[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Pawnbroker In Firearms Other Than Destructive Devices.[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$200 For The First 3 Years[/*]
[*]$90 On Renewal[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 03[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Collector Of Curios & Relics[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$30 For 3 Years[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 06[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Manufacturer Of Ammunition Other Than Destructive Devices or AP Ammuntion[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$30 For 3 Years[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 07[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Manufacturer Of Firarms Other Than Destructive Devices[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$150 For 3 Years[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 08[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Importer Of Firearms Other Than Destructive Devices Or Ammunition Other Than Destructive Devices Or AP Ammunition.[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$150 For 3 Years[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 09[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Dealer In Destructive Devices[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$3,000 For 3 Years[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 10[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Manufacturer Of Destructive Devices, Ammunition For Destructive Devices, And AP Ammunition[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$3,000 For 3 Years[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[b][i][*]Type 11[/*][/i][/b]
[list]
[b][*]Importer Of Destructive Devices, Ammunition For Destructive Devices, And AP Ammuntion[/*][/b]
[list]
[*]$3,000 For 3 Years[/*]
[/list]
[/list]

[/list=1]

From what I can tell, just get a Type 07 FFL/SOT and build the gun. Make sure to file the proper forms with the ATF, when you manufacture a gun. You should be able to build almost any gun you want, except for Destructive Devices. You might also wish to consider a Type 06, whi9ch would allow you to manufacture ammunition other than DD or AP Ammo.

But, make sure to make guns for other people so the ATF doesn't see an FLL/SOT trying to avoid paying the $200 taxes. When you give up your FFL/SOT you can keep Pre-86 MGs, all SBRs, AOWs, etc. You cannot keep Dealer Samples.

But, for $50/Year For a Type 07 and $10/Year for a Type 06. I would surely keep them for the rest of my life.

Don't forget the additional $500/year for the SOT and the State Dept. fee which is about another $500/year.

"BTW, their website is the best example of poor web authoring I have ever seen. Very hard to find information."


NO KIDDING! Now you know why I came here to ask.

Ok let me see if I'll getting you guys.
So I could go AOW and make something like a SMG but with out being FA,if I use a new lower.

But to do this with a gun  I have right now it would have to pe-ban or all I could have us the shorter barrel.

Damn, the ATF doesn't mention those fees.

So what exactly is an AOW?  What are the rules (basic) for one?

Start with a "NEW" bare receiver. Register it as an "AOW" on a Form-1, follow the directions. An AOW is neither a pistol or rifle. An AOW can never have a stock attached, does not have to comply with the post-ban AW pistol crap, thus you can have all the AW features. OR, just do a Form-1 for a SBR, then you can add or remove the stock from day to day, BUT you have to comply with the AW features crap if built on a post-ban lower.

I can see why this stuff is confusing.

So with a post ban receiver, I would have to use a pistol buffer, but could put any length of barrel on it??  I also read here it would need to have a forward grip as well, correct?

What are the rules for a AR type pistol?  Can you build a pistol from a post ban receiver, or does it have to be pre ban?  IT seems to me that it would follow the same rules as above.

Edit:  Do these AOWs have to meet the 50 oz weight limit?  Are these considered pistols, or more like full autos for transfer purposes?

SO???!!!

I could make this with an integrally suppressed barrel...[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=61880[/url]

Instead of being an SBR, it would be an AOW.  No stock, just pistol grip, but now instead of the 10" bull barrel, I could have a 10" integrally suppressed barrel.

Basically trade off having an SBR with a stock, to now being an AOW with choice of pre-ban features.   Hmmm?  Am I right?

Let me try to make this simple:

AOW: Can only be built on a "NEW' bare "VIRGIN" receiver. CANNOT ever have a stock attached, does not have to comply w/AW crap.

SBR: Can be built on a "PRE or POST" lower, but must comply with "PRE or POST" AW crap. You are free to add stock one day and remove the next day.

Post AR Pistol: Has to meet AW crap and weigh less than 50 oz. GOOD LUCK!

Be a whole lot easier if people would dooo searh on "SBR, AOW, Post AR Pistol", as there seems to be multiple explanations/ discussions already. Also refer to [url]www.subguns.com[/url]NFA discussion board, lots of C2's there and RKI's to clarify the definitions a little better than I.

SBR7_11, no matter how many searches a person does, and read all those posts, where can we get an answer as good and simple as yours and so quickly?

Plus it gives you something to do.  Helping those of us who seek knowledge, and to buy and make more guns.

Besides, sometimes the search feature does not work.  I am going to approach these guys about the next level of Knowledge Management of content on this site.  They are sitting on a gem here!

Thanks for your help
Zoub

You are welcome.
I have done a few SBR (Form-1) and had to argue my recent SBR with ATF. I got it my way. Had a bare lower bought in 88, had assembled with 11.5/5.5, did not register or exise tax as the rifle was for my own consumption and not for re-sale, so they did not know status of rifle, I won.

As far as me something to do, need it while sitting on my butt waiting around for work to come in at the dealership service dept, service work is kinda slow.