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Posted: 1/16/2006 6:20:14 AM EDT
Based on what I have read in GD, the following is believed by many:

1. Businessmen are evil.
2. Capitalism is basically wrong.
3. Union workers are oppressed.
4. Unions never do anything to harm a company; only bad management harms companies.
5. One of our basic freedoms is mandatory union membership.
6. Group health insurance coverage is an entitlement.
7. It is wrong for a worker and an employer to craft their own employment agreement free of outside intrusions by government or organized labor.
8. It is the eimployers obligation to ensure the chosen lifestyle of his employees.
9. Employees are free to come and go, but an employer must be restrained in his hiring and firing practices.
10. Employee-chosen addictions that reduce productivity are not grounds for termination.

With all that is obviously wrong with American capitalism, why then does our economy out produce on a per capita basis all the enlightened socialists systems?

Why do we have a very low rate of unemployment when compared to worker-friendly and socialist-modeled European countries?

Why is our standard of living the highest in the world?

Why is our industry the most innovative?

Why do we never have shortages of goods and services when the market is allowed to work freely?

What are we doing without?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:22:23 AM EDT
I'm proud to be an evil bastard.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:22:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:26:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 6:26:40 AM EDT by efpeter]
Based on what I've read in the GD, most people are obsessed woth Bareback Mountain, too.





I think it is funny when liberals say capitalism is a necessary evil, because it is the only way to financially support the social programs they want.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:28:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:52:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 6:54:36 AM EDT by Appelsientje]

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:

Why is our standard of living the highest in the world?



Actually, Luxembourg has a higher standard of living than the US.

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/lu-map.gif

Of course, it's only the size of Rhode Island.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:00:10 AM EDT
great, another darn european on the board...

ya let one dutch guy post and look what happens


Welcome to ARFCOM Appelseed.

TXL
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:04:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLewis:
great, another darn european on the board...

ya let one dutch guy post and look what happenshr


Heh. Actually, I'm from Louisiana but am currently residing in the NL. I haven't been to Luxembourg yet, but I heard they're all filthy rich.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:06:35 AM EDT
I must be in the minority. Fuck Unions.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:07:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 7:08:55 AM EDT by BenDover]

Originally Posted By roboman:
I must be in the minority. Fuck Unions.



+1

Will-Rogers, you must be reading GD in the middle of the night, when guys who don't have to be at work in the morning do all the posting.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:10:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
I'm proud to be an evil bastard.



I'm working my little heart out to become one.



96Ag
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:26:15 AM EDT

5. One of our basic freedoms is mandatory union membership.

To add to that is that many posters here believe that not only do you have the right to join a union, but you don't have the right to refuse to join a union. The union has the right to force you to join. I've never understood where this socialistic concept came from, but I've had a couple of relatives that were fired for refusing to join a union.z
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:29:59 AM EDT
Union guys are afraid of freedom. The thought that they would be paid based exclusively on their abilities and the needs of the market place scares them to death.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:46:07 AM EDT
Apparently you HAVE NOT read the same GD as I read. If you are reading the same GD that I read then your reading comprehension sucks. Most every point you posted is exactly "ass backward" as to the prevailing attitudes here on AR15.com. For your assignment you are to go back and actually read the discussions in the GD forum.

Or maybe you are just a fucking
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 7:59:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TxLewis:
great, another darn european on the board...

ya let one dutch guy post and look what happens


Welcome to ARFCOM Appelseed.

TXL




He's NOT Dutch
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:00:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dalesimpson:
Apparently you HAVE NOT read the same GD as I read. If you are reading the same GD that I read then your reading comprehension sucks. Most every point you posted is exactly "ass backward" as to the prevailing attitudes here on AR15.com. For your assignment you are to go back and actually read the discussions in the GD forum.

Or maybe you are just a fucking


To quote him exactly, he said "believed by many." Many posters here do have those attitudes. He didn't say all or most. He said many. Try reading his post before making personal attacks.z
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:01:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Based on what I've read in the GD, most people are obsessed woth Bareback Mountain, too.



I think it is funny when liberals say capitalism is a necessary evil, because it is the only way
to financially support the social programs they want.


Winner!



Interestingly, unions don't want *everyone* to be unionized. This would bring about more of a level playing field, thereby erasing most of their gains........ inflation!
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:02:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MTUSA:

Originally Posted By TxLewis:
great, another darn european on the board...

ya let one dutch guy post and look what happens

Welcome to ARFCOM Appelseed.

TXL


He's NOT Dutch




Apparently, I'm not the only one who remembers Prof's old byline/tagline.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:12:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Will-Rogers:
Union guys are afraid of freedom. The thought that they would be paid based exclusively on their abilities and the needs of the market place scares them to death.



That's a harsh way to put it, but I think you nailed it. Every vehemently pro Union guy I've ever met in person strikes me someone who feels powerless and afraid, when faced with the possibility of being non-Union. If that weren't enough, they try their damndest to make me feel the same way.

They can fire you in an instant.
You make think you're in good shape now, but that could all change tommorow.
They could replace you with technology (my favorite, since I'm the guy who does just that...lol)
etc, etc....

I like how they always refer to my friends at work as "Management". This is funny, since I call them Jim, Paul, Mike...

As far as your perceptions in GD: There are some vocal Union guys who believe much of what you wrote in the first post, but I honestly think they are in the minority. There are more guys like me in the Union threads, than representatives of the So-and-So Local #xx.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:14:05 AM EDT
Let's look at Delphi.

Their union negotiated [a.k.a. blackmailed] their way into $26 an hour unskilled labor jobs. Probably a ga-jillion in bebefits, too.
Now Delphi says "We are broke. We cannot afford to pay your artificially inflated wages and stay in business. Do you want to work for $9 an hour?"
The Unions response was to threaten to strike.

I hate to say this, but I think a major company is going to have to be run out of business before anyone wakes up. Union employees believe the company exists to provide them with a job. Any final product is just a by-product, and doesn't really factor into their pay and benefits.



There. That ought to stir up someone's blood.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:16:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Let's look at Delphi.

Their union negotiated [a.k.a. blackmailed] their way into $26 an hour unskilled labor jobs. Probably a ga-jillion in bebefits, too.
Now Delphi says "We are broke. We cannot afford to pay your artificially inflated wages and stay in business. Do you want to work for $9 an hour?"
The Unions response was to threaten to strike.

I hate to say this, but I think a major company is going to have to be run out of business before anyone wakes up. Union employees believe the company exists to provide them with a job. Any final product is just a by-product, and doesn't really factor into their pay and benefits.



There. That ought to stir up someone's blood.



One says it's the $26/hr wages that are killing the company. Another will insist it's bad management. The arguing is what makes it interesting. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:17:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By roboman:
I must be in the minority. Fuck Unions.


I'll join your minority.

<---------forced union "member"
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:20:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 8:22:52 AM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By Appelsientje:

Originally Posted By TxLewis:
great, another darn european on the board...

ya let one dutch guy post and look what happens


Welcome to ARFCOM Appelseed.

TXL



Heh. Actually, I'm from Louisiana but am currently residing in the NL. I haven't been to Luxembourg yet, but I heard they're all filthy rich.



I once worked with a guy who emigrated from Luxembourg to the US (Portland OR). He was a professor of German literature, made $100,000/year, but was bored out of his mind. Decided to move to the US in his late 30's and become a businessman.

He wore a cape, packed a .38, and had a pet cobra. Strange fellow.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:21:56 AM EDT
Sitting on the hateful side of a picketline right now. The difference between these bums and the bums that live under an overpass is that the homeless bums don't try to stop other people from going to work. Fuck socialist union bums!
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:23:21 AM EDT
Union members are hypocrites. They want socialism and government controls when it is to thier advantage, but capitalism in situations where that favors them.

And what they create is something that uneconomically sustainable in the long run, but so long as it helps them short term they could care less about the effects upon the company, its employees, or the country long term.

Sad part is most are so brainwashed by the union line that they just swallow it, I have yet to meet but one on here willing to actually debate the facts without resorting to insults. They will be along soon to drop quick one liners and union talking points.... but I doubt they will try to argue the facts.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:23:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Let's look at Delphi.

Their union negotiated [a.k.a. blackmailed] their way into $26 an hour unskilled labor jobs. Probably a ga-jillion in bebefits, too.
Now Delphi says "We are broke. We cannot afford to pay your artificially inflated wages and stay in business. Do you want to work for $9 an hour?"
The Unions response was to threaten to strike.

I hate to say this, but I think a major company is going to have to be run out of business before anyone wakes up. Union employees believe the company exists to provide them with a job. Any final product is just a by-product, and doesn't really factor into their pay and benefits.



There. That ought to stir up someone's blood.



One says it's the $26/hr wages that are killing the company. Another will insist it's bad management. The arguing is what makes it interesting. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.



Bad management allowing $26/hr for unskilled wages (skilled is an entirely different matter)
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:27:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Let's look at Delphi.

Their union negotiated [a.k.a. blackmailed] their way into $26 an hour unskilled labor jobs. Probably a ga-jillion in bebefits, too.
Now Delphi says "We are broke. We cannot afford to pay your artificially inflated wages and stay in business. Do you want to work for $9 an hour?"
The Unions response was to threaten to strike.

I hate to say this, but I think a major company is going to have to be run out of business before anyone wakes up. Union employees believe the company exists to provide them with a job. Any final product is just a by-product, and doesn't really factor into their pay and benefits.



There. That ought to stir up someone's blood.



One says it's the $26/hr wages that are killing the company. Another will insist it's bad management. The arguing is what makes it interesting. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.



If a company is paying $26 an hour for unskilled labor that can be had for $9 an hour, that is bad management...but it is bad management forced upon them by the government by forcing them to deal with the union.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:35:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 8:41:14 AM EDT by PromptCritical]

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Let's look at Delphi.

Their union negotiated [a.k.a. blackmailed] their way into $26 an hour unskilled labor jobs. Probably a ga-jillion in bebefits, too.
Now Delphi says "We are broke. We cannot afford to pay your artificially inflated wages and stay in business. Do you want to work for $9 an hour?"
The Unions response was to threaten to strike.

I hate to say this, but I think a major company is going to have to be run out of business before anyone wakes up. Union employees believe the company exists to provide them with a job. Any final product is just a by-product, and doesn't really factor into their pay and benefits.



There. That ought to stir up someone's blood.



Survey says:



ETA: BTW, I fucking despise unions. Show me a corporation that unnecessary subjects its workers to dangerous working conditions, and I may change my mind. The Navy has a term for strikes: Mutiny.

If I was ever the head of a company, and my employees went on strike, I would fire them all and have them arrested for trespassing. Then I would hire new workers for as cheap as possible while still maintaining productivity.

To quote a Klingon prison warden: "Work well, and you will be treated well. Work badly, and you will die."
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:37:04 AM EDT
I haven't seen much of that, but then I haven't been sticking my head in many union threads lately.

The one baffling thing that I see all the time here is that a disturbing number of people have no concept of supply and demand in the oil market, and believe in the "pricing conspiracy" fairy tale - there's a big, smoky room of stereotypical Capitalist Pigs who set the price of gas as high as they can get away with, and lower it only when they think we're onto their "evil plan" and are about to force them to lower it. Of course, they believe that the Wonderful Socialist Government can set the price at whatever they deem to be fair, and this will have no effect on the supply of oil.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:46:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 8:51:20 AM EDT by motown_steve]
You have very little common sense, and you probably have even less real world experience.

I have been gainfully employed continously for 16 years now. For the last 10 years I have been a consultant and I have consulted for and to some of the largest companies in the world, including Ford, GM, EDS, UPS and even the USAF. Don't presume to tell me about capitalism and free markets.

How old are you and what do you do for a living?

ETA - Just so you know, this little rant appears to have been spawned by a thread where a few other people along with myself stated that corporations and businesses do not possess inalienable rights to operate without government regulation. I don't think there was more than one or two references to unions in the entire 12 page thread.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:58:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PromptCritical:



Survey says:

www.gm.com/images/gm_nav_logo.gif

ETA: BTW, I fucking despise unions. Show me a corporation that unnecessary subjects its workers to dangerous working conditions, and I may change my mind. The Navy has a term for strikes: Mutiny.

If I was ever the head of a company, and my employees went on strike, I would fire them all and have them arrested for trespassing. Then I would hire new workers for as cheap as possible while still maintaining productivity.

To quote a Klingon prison warden: "Work well, and you will be treated well. Work badly, and you will die."




Well, hopefully there is a little more middle ground than klingons killing your unproductive employees....


I don't hate unions, just what they have become. There is a big difference in collective barganing and blackmailing a company with the threat of with-holding labor for unreasonable pay/benefits.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:02:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I have been gainfully employed continously for 16 years now. For the last 10 years I have been a consultant and I have consulted for and to some of the largest companies in the world, including Ford, GM, EDS, UPS and even the USAF. Don't presume to tell me about capitalism and free markets.







Originally Posted By motown_steve:
On an average 8 hour day I have maybe about 2 hours worth of work, and a large portion of that is spent on conference calls.





Originally Posted By motown_steve:
A business is a non-existent entity written down on paper for the purpose of managing assets and making money. If it is not regulated then it has the capability to devour everything in it's path including it's employees and other businesses. And when the business achieves it's ultimate goal, it has accumulated a vast amount of wealth for a very small number of people sometimes to the detriment of millions of other people. A business is a man made entity with no natural rights. Man created businesses, and man has the power to determine the conditions under which businesses may operate, and the tool that man uses to implement these restrictions is called government.

It's very, very simple. Business can and should be regulated. End of story.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:06:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By efpeter:
Let's look at Delphi.

Their union negotiated [a.k.a. blackmailed] their way into $26 an hour unskilled labor jobs. Probably a ga-jillion in bebefits, too.
Now Delphi says "We are broke. We cannot afford to pay your artificially inflated wages and stay in business. Do you want to work for $9 an hour?"
The Unions response was to threaten to strike.

I hate to say this, but I think a major company is going to have to be run out of business before anyone wakes up. Union employees believe the company exists to provide them with a job. Any final product is just a by-product, and doesn't really factor into their pay and benefits.
There. That ought to stir up someone's blood.



The UAW is a good example of what happens when a union goes stupid. The great downfall of the unions has been their all or nothing policies for many years. They have persued the "interests" of their workers to the point that they are bankrupting the companies that pay the paychecks, and that is certainly NOT in their worker's interests.

Union leadership becomes a lot like other political leadership in that those who get elected into positions of authority tend to be the ones who pander and try to bring home the most bacon. They have an incorrect antagonistic view of their relationship to the company rather than realizing that they are in a symbiotic relationship.

That being said, the entire union issue is dramatically more complex than most realize. Unions came into being for very legitimate reasons, but their mindset didn't change with the changing times and conditions.

As far as people whining about "unskilled" labor at 25 bucks an hour, I have seen lots of folks that many here would consider "unskilled" who knew their job backwards and forwards and were worth twice that much.

A lot of hostitility gets spewed against the average worker who isn't a scum-sucker and who actually would like to see some sanity instilled into the union the same way that most of us would like to see some sanity injected back into government.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:08:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SubnetMask:
One says it's the $26/hr wages that are killing the company. Another will insist it's bad management. The arguing is what makes it interesting. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.



It is a bit of both.

One can only manage so much when the resources of the company are tied up in billions of dollars worth of payroll and benefits that the company cannot afford.

Similarly, it is mighty hard for the workers to trust the managers to do the right thing when they seem eager to do anything to make a buck, no matter how stupid.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:11:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
If a company is paying $26 an hour for unskilled labor that can be had for $9 an hour, that is bad management...but it is bad management forced upon them by the government by forcing them to deal with the union.



And herein lies the problem:

You CANNOT get the same quality of labor for 9 bucks an hour that you can for 26 bucks an hour. Period.

Those saying that "unskilled" (whatever the hell THAT is supposed to mean...) labor doesn't "deserve" 26 bucks an hour are apparently unfamiliar with how manufacturing works.

Paying people an excellent wage who have experience and demonstrated competence in producing the products your company sells is in the interest of the company.

The problem is that the unions want EVERYONE to get paid 26 bucks an hour and will go to the mat for worthless employees, while the managers don't want to pay ANYONE more than the absolute minimum.

Therein lies the dilemma for modern manufacturing in the US. Someone is going to have to replace the stupid on both ends with some common sense and everything will be fine.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:20:48 AM EDT
What would have happened if the unions, instead of demanding and receiving over-inflated wages, had historically kept wages lower and instead negotiated for their members to receive stock options from their employers?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:22:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 9:25:25 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
If a company is paying $26 an hour for unskilled labor that can be had for $9 an hour, that is bad management...but it is bad management forced upon them by the government by forcing them to deal with the union.



And herein lies the problem:

You CANNOT get the same quality of labor for 9 bucks an hour that you can for 26 bucks an hour. Period.

Those saying that "unskilled" (whatever the hell THAT is supposed to mean...) labor doesn't "deserve" 26 bucks an hour are apparently unfamiliar with how manufacturing works.

Paying people an excellent wage who have experience and demonstrated competence in producing the products your company sells is in the interest of the company.

The problem is that the unions want EVERYONE to get paid 26 bucks an hour and will go to the mat for worthless employees, while the managers don't want to pay ANYONE more than the absolute minimum.

Therein lies the dilemma for modern manufacturing in the US. Someone is going to have to replace the stupid on both ends with some common sense and everything will be fine.



By unskilled I mean sticking widget A into Widget B. A job anyone can learn to do in under 1 month with no previous education in the field would fall into that catagory. Now as that person gains more and more experience, thier labor may be worth more. But starting out for something like that, no way they are worth what unions try to get. Once they prove themselves to be a valuable asset, sure.

And I too have worked in manufacturing. But also in that catagory I would put janitors, baggage handlers, food service except for cooks, etc. Anything you can apply for with no previous experience or education on your resume, be hired and go right to work.

And in many cases you have no need for the kind of quality labor that $26 an hour will buy. So you are spending way too much on a componet...it would be like making fishooks from titanium.... you would be wasting money. The union essentially forces them to pay what a higher priced material would be that they do not need, and may or may not deliver that higher quality. It like forcing the fishhook maker to buy titanium when all he needs is steel, and all his customers want is steel.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:35:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter:
By unskilled I mean sticking widget A into Widget B. A job anyone can learn to do in under 1 month with no previous education in the field would fall into that catagory.



While jobs like that do exist in manufacturing, the majority do not qualify. Your average worker in an American manufacturing plant is charged with keeping track of complex machines that do a great percentage of the production here, that all must meet specific tolerance requirements for ISO 9000 certifications. They are responsible for constant quality control, etc. The average job many people consider "unskilled" is a hell of a lot more involved than most realize.



Now as that person gains more and more experience, thier labor may be worth more. But starting out for something like that, no way they are worth what unions try to get. Once they prove themselves to be a valuable asset, sure.



And this is where the current union philosophy goes nutty. I have worked as a non-union employee in a union shop and it was staggering to see that the majority of the people who chose to join the union were the worst and most problematic workers at the place. And yet the union would fight tooth and nail for them to the point that the managers couldn't do anything with them.




And I too have worked in manufacturing. But also in that catagory I would put janitors, baggage handlers, food service except for cooks, etc. Anything you can apply for with no previous experience or education on your resume, be hired and go right to work.



There are some jobs that aren't worth more than 9 bucks an hour. But most manufacturing jobs ARE worth more.



And in many cases you have no need for the kind of quality labor that $26 an hour will buy. So you are spending way too much on a componet...it would be like making fishooks from titanium.... you would be wasting money.



Good people are never a "waste" of money.

When the financial stability of your company depends on people producing a product, it makes all kinds of sense to find the very best people you can and pay them very well with very good benefits. The unions mess up because they demand the idiots who mess everything up and who are lazy get paid just like the very competent and hardworking.

Adress that, and the union problem is no longer a union problem.

Link Posted: 1/16/2006 9:36:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
I have been gainfully employed continously for 16 years now. For the last 10 years I have been a consultant and I have consulted for and to some of the largest companies in the world, including Ford, GM, EDS, UPS and even the USAF. Don't presume to tell me about capitalism and free markets.







Originally Posted By motown_steve:
On an average 8 hour day I have maybe about 2 hours worth of work, and a large portion of that is spent on conference calls.





Originally Posted By motown_steve:
A business is a non-existent entity written down on paper for the purpose of managing assets and making money. If it is not regulated then it has the capability to devour everything in it's path including it's employees and other businesses. And when the business achieves it's ultimate goal, it has accumulated a vast amount of wealth for a very small number of people sometimes to the detriment of millions of other people. A business is a man made entity with no natural rights. Man created businesses, and man has the power to determine the conditions under which businesses may operate, and the tool that man uses to implement these restrictions is called government.

It's very, very simple. Business can and should be regulated. End of story.




Ah, red_beard, once again you attempt to throw something in my face which you do not comprehend.

If you read my entire post, you would see that I was not saying that I leave my work undone or ignore other tasks that need to be done because "it's not my job". I was saying that my current situation leaves me with very little to do during the work day.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:02:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:11:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
A business is a non-existent entity written down on paper for the purpose of managing assets and making money. If it is not regulated then it has the capability to devour everything in it's path including it's employees and other businesses. And when the business achieves it's ultimate goal, it has accumulated a vast amount of wealth for a very small number of people sometimes to the detriment of millions of other people. A business is a man made entity with no natural rights. Man created businesses, and man has the power to determine the conditions under which businesses may operate, and the tool that man uses to implement these restrictions is called government.

It's very, very simple. Business can and should be regulated. End of story.

Is that how an agency of the United States Government decided that a gun in somebody's closet was engaged in interstate commerce?
Regulatory types make me nervous.



And anarchists (which is essentially what libertarians and lassie faire capitalists are) make me nervous.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:13:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By efpeter:
<snip>


The UAW is a good example of what happens when a union goes stupid. The great downfall of the unions has been their all or nothing policies for many years. They have persued the "interests" of their workers to the point that they are bankrupting the companies that pay the paychecks, and that is certainly NOT in their worker's interests.

<snip>


I know it's not what you're trying to say here, so this isn't directed at you, J_W.

Anyone who thinks that "commerce" or business unions have the rank-and-file's interests in mind are the same types of people who believe that police officer's unions have the officer's interests in mind.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:14:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
What would have happened if the unions, instead of demanding and receiving over-inflated wages, had historically kept wages lower and instead negotiated for their members to receive stock options from their employers?



You would have never made it in union leadership. Heavy shoes are good for swimming.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:16:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:20:05 AM EDT
Good, bad, I'm the guy with the pin. Pay me.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:23:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
A business is a non-existent entity written down on paper for the purpose of managing assets and making money. If it is not regulated then it has the capability to devour everything in it's path including it's employees and other businesses. And when the business achieves it's ultimate goal, it has accumulated a vast amount of wealth for a very small number of people sometimes to the detriment of millions of other people. A business is a man made entity with no natural rights. Man created businesses, and man has the power to determine the conditions under which businesses may operate, and the tool that man uses to implement these restrictions is called government.

It's very, very simple. Business can and should be regulated. End of story.

Is that how an agency of the United States Government decided that a gun in somebody's closet was engaged in interstate commerce?
Regulatory types make me nervous.



And anarchists (which is essentially what libertarians and lassie faire capitalists are) make me nervous.



Wow you blow me away with your idea of American business.

American businesses especially companies that have fewer than 100 employees are the very backbone of this economy and drive the middle class.
Without a vibrant middle class (buying homes cars and spending money having fun), the economy is stagnant and would faulter.
When you regulate business, you create the very things you are trying to avoid.

I have had this conversation with you before.......you need a clue of how hard it is to just break even when competition is the main obstacle. Add some .gov regulation and it becomes almost impossible to make money.

I'll give you a small clue......if a company doesn't make money, employees don't get paid.

What in your job history make you so antibusiness???
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:23:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
You have very little common sense, and you probably have even less real world experience.

I have been gainfully employed continously for 16 years now. For the last 10 years I have been a consultant and I have consulted for and to some of the largest companies in the world, including Ford, GM, EDS, UPS and even the USAF. Don't presume to tell me about capitalism and free markets.

How old are you and what do you do for a living?

ETA - Just so you know, this little rant appears to have been spawned by a thread where a few other people along with myself stated that corporations and businesses do not possess inalienable rights to operate without government regulation. I don't think there was more than one or two references to unions in the entire 12 page thread.



I figured that was where mr. 36posts was coming from with this thread. He ASSumes that because many of us feel that a company has no right to dictate our personal lives, we must be pro-union. Nothing could be further from the truth. I hate unions, but that has nothing to do with that other thread.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:23:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
A business is a non-existent entity written down on paper for the purpose of managing assets and making money. If it is not regulated then it has the capability to devour everything in it's path including it's employees and other businesses. And when the business achieves it's ultimate goal, it has accumulated a vast amount of wealth for a very small number of people sometimes to the detriment of millions of other people. A business is a man made entity with no natural rights. Man created businesses, and man has the power to determine the conditions under which businesses may operate, and the tool that man uses to implement these restrictions is called government.

It's very, very simple. Business can and should be regulated. End of story.

Is that how an agency of the United States Government decided that a gun in somebody's closet was engaged in interstate commerce?
Regulatory types make me nervous.



And anarchists (which is essentially what libertarians and lassie faire capitalists are) make me nervous.

Is it your position that the position of the US Government lawyer as above is the expression of the will of the people?



No, not at all. In the case of firearms 1) the right to keep and bear arms is specifically enumerated in the constitution as being beyond infringement in any way shape or form and 2) in reality, the government would not have been able to get away with it had the people not consented.

My only assertion in that the government has the authroity and duty to regulate activities of organizations engaged in commerce (businesses). That's it.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:27:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:29:54 AM EDT
"I figured that was where mr. 36posts was coming from with this thread. He ASSumes that because many of us feel that a company has no right to dictate our personal lives, we must be pro-union. Nothing could be further from the truth. I hate unions, but that has nothing to do with that other thread."

Thank you for the personal attack. It shows how weak you are in your position.

Why can't you guys see that NO EMPLOYER HAS THE RIGHT TO FORCE YOU TO DO ANYTHING!?!

You guys keep screaming RAPE? You seem to be totally ignorant of economics and psychology.

None of you have presented a single example of an employee who was forced to do anything by their employer. Employers do not have the force of arms. All they can do is outline the requirements for the job. All you do is decide if you want that job.

Why is that so difficult to grasp?
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 10:36:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lon_Moer:

Originally Posted By roboman:
I must be in the minority. Fuck Unions.


I'll join your minority.

<---------forced union "member"




I'm a Republican and a Union member. I really can't see your point what's wrong with a fair wage,health ins. vacation time,Pension,job security. would you rather make $75000.00 a year and be trained well and have work rules in place or according to your logic make $25000.00 a year and have some A$$ hat screw you over because of a personality conlict. I LOVE UNIONS they have been very good to me and my family. To sum it up if you want to work for less and have no security don't join a Union
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