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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/14/2005 4:21:02 PM EDT
In 13 years we have changed our duty load 5 times! Each time they give us new duty ammo to carry, but nothing to test fire/function check in our duty weapons. So each time they change ammo I'm out about 100.00 for ammo just to test fire the new duty load in my sidearm.

We just changed again, so I gotta find 200 rounds of the most current version of Federal HST to make sure the shit runs in my gun.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 4:37:13 PM EDT
I don't envy you. Sounds like administration feels their decisions are perfect. They choose the ammo so of course it MUST work in everyones' guns. Idiots all of 'em.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 4:45:10 PM EDT
Yeah, right when you get used to one load they swap them on you. Pure genius!
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 4:50:05 PM EDT
They probably don't even understand why anyone would want to test the ammo (accuracy/reliability/muzzle flash/controlability/etc). They would never imagine that anyone would shoot 200 rounds of it.

Link Posted: 8/14/2005 8:33:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:
I don't envy you. Sounds like administration feels their decisions are perfect. They choose the ammo so of course it MUST work in everyones' guns. Idiots all of 'em.



And since everyone must use the issue ammo the only solution if it is not reliable in your gun is to retire the weapon and buy another.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 8:45:48 PM EDT
I guess this is a stupid question from a non JBT type, but, don't they issue practice ammo?
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:16:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
I guess this is a stupid question from a non JBT type, but, don't they issue practice ammo?



Ammo for range qual and training is a lead free FMJ type, not JHP duty ammo.
Link Posted: 8/14/2005 10:21:51 PM EDT
You could always find a job in the public sector - with us little people.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 1:42:38 AM EDT
I buy a few thousand rounds a year...I shoot it anyway, and it comes off my taxes.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 4:52:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:07:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 5:26:46 AM EDT by photoman]
Let us know how you like it and how the gun likes it. That HST ammo is suposed to be pretty damn good. I was impressed by what I saw of it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:19:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 5:20:32 AM EDT by ScaryBlackGuns]
Once again David graciously volunteers to help with his stunning insight!



Our lives are now richer!

Seriously, I think that AR15fan is complaining about the fact that his employer seems to switch loads every time the wind changes. Thus, he is incurring the expense of function testing the ammo from his personal funds rather than running around like Barney Fife with a handgun that has the utility of a paperweight.

SBG
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 5:27:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 8:57:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
it probably has little to do with load effectivness or quality and more to do with who gives them the best price when they go shopping for new ammo.

my reccomendation is to go to the chief/mayor /city council. you have a valid concern.



+1.

Also, you should be writing this off as a legitmate (sp) business expense.

Merlin
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:44:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 9:48:09 AM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
So your solution would be that you were carrying 13year old ammo?



No. My solution would be to test all the available ammo, poick the best load made. then stick with it. Issuing new ammo every year.

Not changing brands, bullet type and bullet weight every couple years chasing a majic bullet or lowest bottum line.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:45:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
Let us know how you like it and how the gun likes it. That HST ammo is suposed to be pretty damn good. I was impressed by what I saw of it.



Performed terribly in ammolab and Doctor Roberts testing.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 9:57:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Performed terribly in ammolab and Doctor Roberts testing.



Can you point out those tests? I'm headed to the range right now to test reliability in my wife's Kahr. I searched briefly and didn't find anything negative except for the first batches. It didn't look terrible in these tests:
Thread
le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:00:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 10:06:14 AM EDT by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By photoman:
Let us know how you like it and how the gun likes it. That HST ammo is suposed to be pretty damn good. I was impressed by what I saw of it.



Performed terribly in ammolab and Doctor Roberts testing.



That was the old HST. The new stuff did very well. It is on Doc Roberts recommendation list (in certain loadings):

Carry Ammo
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:02:20 AM EDT
We had to buy our own duty ammo. Everybody carried something different. Although most of the auto guys carried Hydoshok's.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:03:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 10:29:35 AM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Performed terribly in ammolab and Doctor Roberts testing.



Can you point out those tests? I'm headed to the range right now to test reliability in my wife's Kahr. I searched briefly and didn't find anything negative except for the first batches. It didn't look terrible in these tests:
Thread
le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf


Of course it looked good in Federal run testing...

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000780#000000

"It SEEMS that this HST ammo is not as good as the maker claims to be. If I were you, I'd stick to the RA9T ammo you are currently using. RA9T has proven track record, where the HST does not. The Doc has also shown that HST expands POORLY in denim."


www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000754#000000



"If you use the search function and search for "hst" within this forum, you'll find more info. Despite some widely publicized tests sponsored by Federal, the HST is not the best design - overall, or from Federal. Their "tactical" line is better."
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:03:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
I guess this is a stupid question from a non JBT type, but, don't they issue practice ammo?



At my department and those around me, no.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:05:06 AM EDT
The sheriff's department around here has changed CALIBERS 4 times in the past ten years.

They went from 9mm to .40 to .357 Sig and are now using .45 acp.

I have no idea who pays for all of this.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:10:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By operatorerror:
The sheriff's department around here has changed CALIBERS 4 times in the past ten years.

They went from 9mm to .40 to .357 Sig and are now using .45 acp.

I have no idea who pays for all of this.



Look in the mirror in the morning when you shave.

The "payer" will be looking at you.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:18:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:
The sheriff's department around here has changed CALIBERS 4 times in the past ten years.

They went from 9mm to .40 to .357 Sig and are now using .45 acp.

I have no idea who pays for all of this.



Look in the mirror in the morning when you shave.

The "payer" will be looking at you.



LOL!

Well yeah, I knew that....

I meant I don't know if the S.O. pays for all of their ammo or if the officers have to pay for some of it.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:20:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2005 10:45:59 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Performed terribly in ammolab and Doctor Roberts testing.



Can you point out those tests? I'm headed to the range right now to test reliability in my wife's Kahr. I searched briefly and didn't find anything negative except for the first batches. It didn't look terrible in these tests:
Thread
le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf


Of course it looked good in Federal run testing...





Taken from the thread glenn linked to.


9mm Fed 147 gr JHP HST (P9HST2) from G17:
BG: vel=1037f/s, pen=11.9”, RD=0.64”, RW=147.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=1049f/s, pen=14.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=147.5gr
auto windshield: vel=1042 f/s, pen=13.4”, RD=0.53”, RW=140.4gr

.40 S&W Fed 180 gr JHP HST (P40HST1) from S&W 4006
BG: vel=960 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=.65”, RW=181.1gr
4 layer denim: vel=961 f/s, pen=15.6”, RD=0.62, 181.3 gr
auto windshield: vel=904 f/s, pen=15.2”, RD=0.47”, RW=180.4gr

.45 ACP Fed 230 gr +P JHP HST (P45HST1) from 1911
BG: vel=926 f/s, pen=12.6”, RD=.74”, RW=231.8gr
4 layer denim: vel=915 f/s, pen=15.4”, RD=0.67, 231.1 gr
auto windshield: vel=918 f/s, pen=19.7”, RD=0.54”, RW=228.6gr

As previously reported, the initial production Federal HST bullets failed to expand reliably in denim testing. The new versions appear to have solved this deficiency and offer good terminal performance across the spectrum.

Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:48:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By glenn_r:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Performed terribly in ammolab and Doctor Roberts testing.



Can you point out those tests? I'm headed to the range right now to test reliability in my wife's Kahr. I searched briefly and didn't find anything negative except for the first batches. It didn't look terrible in these tests:
Thread
le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf


Of course it looked good in Federal run testing...

www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000780#000000

"It SEEMS that this HST ammo is not as good as the maker claims to be. If I were you, I'd stick to the RA9T ammo you are currently using. RA9T has proven track record, where the HST does not. The Doc has also shown that HST expands POORLY in denim."


www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000754#000000



"If you use the search function and search for "hst" within this forum, you'll find more info. Despite some widely publicized tests sponsored by Federal, the HST is not the best design - overall, or from Federal. Their "tactical" line is better."



Prhaps you should re-read some of that stuff, Doctor Roberts wrote in the thread linked by Glenn

The new versions appear to have solved this deficiency and offer good terminal performance across the spectrum.
So what your trying to say and what the Doc said are actaully diferent things, as it seems the "problems" with the ammo have been addressed.
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 10:55:43 AM EDT
On reveiw it appears that as of May 2005 there is an improved version of the HST ammo. I have no idea when my issued ammo was purchased, but they have been issuing it since june 04 at least. Doesnt look good...
Link Posted: 8/15/2005 6:26:55 PM EDT
Until a couple of months ago, we only shot duty rounds. All ammo is provided, and you can shoot as much as you want. If you don't shoot A BUNCH of duty ammo, you won't be able to pick up on reliability issues and bad lots of ammo. We have been issuing various generations of Winchester Ranger for a decade with no problems; it runs reliably, and has worked in shootings. RA40T is about as cheap as Ball, too, if you are buying in FET extreme bulk quantities.

I don't trust the hype from Federal on ANY of their new loads. Good luck.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:28:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:
Until a couple of months ago, we only shot duty rounds. All ammo is provided, and you can shoot as much as you want. If you don't shoot A BUNCH of duty ammo, you won't be able to pick up on reliability issues and bad lots of ammo. We have been issuing various generations of Winchester Ranger for a decade with no problems; it runs reliably, and has worked in shootings. RA40T is about as cheap as Ball, too, if you are buying in FET extreme bulk quantities.

I don't trust the hype from Federal on ANY of their new loads. Good luck.



I honestly don't think it's hype with the HST I think it's as good as they say it is. Of ocurse I need to get up to a shop that has some so I can get a couple hundred rounds and do som of my own testing with it, but I still don't think of it as hype.
Link Posted: 8/16/2005 4:56:16 AM EDT
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