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Posted: 9/7/2005 5:41:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:10:24 PM EDT by snipAR_15]
Hi. I would like to be a professional airline/cargo (more towards cargo) pilot. Based on experience, is it a fun and rewarding career?

BTW: I do OCCASIONALLY have motion sickness. Should I be concerned?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:49:18 PM EDT
I want to also, but it will be harder for me. good luck

Pat
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:51:41 PM EDT
What kind of pilot?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:52:09 PM EDT
Military pilot?


Civillian pilot?


I'm a student civillian pilot, almost got my license and it is surprisingly easy.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:53:25 PM EDT
I smile every day at the fact that someone injects generous quantities of money into my bank account to show up at the airport and fly a Learjet around a few days per week.

I did pay some dues though

flap
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:53:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 5:56:51 PM EDT by snipAR_15]

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
Military pilot?


Civillian pilot?


I'm a student civillian pilot, almost got my license and it is surprisingly easy.


some military and mostly civilian.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:55:05 PM EDT
It is a very fun hobby (though expensive). If you're thinking airlines as a career, now's not the greatest time to get hired on. They still haven't recovered from 9/11. It also takes a look of hours (1500) to get your ATP (airline transport pilot) license. All it takes, though, is 40hrs to get your privates license so that's not too bad. From there you work your way up to instrument rating, commercial rating, etc. All it takes is time and money. Honestly, I don't think flying as a career pays all that well unless you are flying for the airlines. Though there are corporate jet jobs out there that don't pay too bad.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:57:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
Military pilot?


Civillian pilot?


I'm a student civillian pilot, almost got my license and it is surprisingly easy.


some mitaryl and mostly civilian.



Military (Air Force at least) takes some doing to get there. Then once you are there, you will owe them 10 years of your life. Trust me. But you get to do some cool shit that you won't do in the civilian world.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 5:58:02 PM EDT
What ever you do don’t become an aircraft mechanic!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:00:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:00:40 PM EDT by Hawker]
I am a pilot and I would not recommend it to anyone. There is more money and job security at Mcdonalds. I'm not joking
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:00:31 PM EDT
I want C-130
And my MOS is aircraft support

Pat
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:06:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:11:52 PM EDT by Hawker]
However if you are serious I'd be glad to give some advice. I've been flying professionally for about 8 years.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:07:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I am a pilot and I would not recommend it to anyone. There is more money and job security at Mcdonalds. I'm not joking



When considering this career you are most likely to enjoy it if you like to fly and not just the idea of being a "pilot" (IE if you are being paid to fly at all you are happy). No offense intended but it's the truth...

flap
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:12:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawker:
However if you are serious I'd be glad to give some advice. I've been flying professionally for about 8 years.


OK. Can I PM you?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:15:21 PM EDT
I love to fly, but the average flight instructor, which is the way most ppl start out to build hours to further their career, earns only 12,000 a year. Then you finally get a job at a regional airline 4 years down the road and you get a whopping 22,000 for the first year at the highest paid airline. It's a LONG hard road and has cost me many of the things I would have wanted in life. You have to not only love to fly, but you must get used to being poor for a long while.That is the truth.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:15:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
However if you are serious I'd be glad to give some advice. I've been flying professionally for about 8 years.


OK. Can I PM you?



Sure
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:19:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I love to fly, but the average flight instructor, which is the way most ppl start out to build hours to further their career, earns only 12,000 a year. Then you finally get a job at a regional airline 4 years down the road and you get a whopping 22,000 for the first year at the highest paid airline. It's a LONG hard road and has cost me many of the things I would have wanted in life. You have to not only love to fly, but you must get used to being poor for a long while.That is the truth.



Yup, I've got a friend who is in that exact process right now. He was an instructor for a few years, now he's flying for some cargo company in Dallas I think. Still trying to build hours....Sucks, but he loves to fly.

SnipAR_15 : If you've got any questions about being a military pilot, let me know. Cause I are one
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:20:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:23:51 PM EDT by valheru21]

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I am a pilot and I would not recommend it to anyone. There is more money and job security at Mcdonalds. I'm not joking



Nothing worth doing has anything like "job security." I'm a Navy pilot and i fly Super Hornets for a living. I have been flying since i was about 5. My dad is an airline pilot (TWA, UPS, Transcon, TWA, AA) turned freight pilot (ATI), so i have heard nearly every "job security" story every told. Flying is worth it to anyone with the interest. Do not let ANYONE tell you different. There are a few digruntled pilots in the world (Hawker is apparently one of them), but no matter the airline, no matter the service, and no matter the aircraft, the world looks a whole lot better from 20,000 feet. I get paid a modest sum to fly a ridiculous airplane around the sky. It is extremely hard work, but after i land, i have never once said, "i need a new job."

All that being said, remember, the airlines are SERIOUSLY hurting right now. to an extent, Hawker is right, there is little job security. I would say, though, that the rewards are worth it.
Matt

p.s. you know the best way to make a small fortune in aviation?!? Start with a large one.
p.p.s. marry rich
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:21:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I love to fly, but the average flight instructor, which is the way most ppl start out to build hours to further their career, earns only 12,000 a year. Then you finally get a job at a regional airline 4 years down the road and you get a whopping 22,000 for the first year at the highest paid airline. It's a LONG hard road and has cost me many of the things I would have wanted in life. You have to not only love to fly, but you must get used to being poor for a long while.That is the truth.



Should I be concerned about motion sickness?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:25:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I love to fly, but the average flight instructor, which is the way most ppl start out to build hours to further their career, earns only 12,000 a year. Then you finally get a job at a regional airline 4 years down the road and you get a whopping 22,000 for the first year at the highest paid airline. It's a LONG hard road and has cost me many of the things I would have wanted in life. You have to not only love to fly, but you must get used to being poor for a long while.That is the truth.



Should I be concerned about motion sickness?



There are ways around it. It may take a while (months) to get it out of your system. Generally speaking, though, if you're doing the flying, the effects will be lessened.

That being said, i have never been sick in an airplane (come close, but not quite there). A lot of my friends have been and they got over it by toughing it out.
Matt
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:27:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:28:04 PM EDT by Hawker]
If you have a problem with motion sickness, it usually comes out worse in the air. There are things you can do to make it easier. I have had many students with it and most overcame it.
Valheru21 I'm glad you love your job, you are on of a very few who get to do that kind of work.
I think it is best to tell the reality of aviation and if someone can stomach it and still want it then they have the right stuff.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:27:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I love to fly, but the average flight instructor, which is the way most ppl start out to build hours to further their career, earns only 12,000 a year. Then you finally get a job at a regional airline 4 years down the road and you get a whopping 22,000 for the first year at the highest paid airline. It's a LONG hard road and has cost me many of the things I would have wanted in life. You have to not only love to fly, but you must get used to being poor for a long while.That is the truth.



Should I be concerned about motion sickness?



There are ways around it. It may take a while (months) to get it out of your system. Generally speaking, though, if you're doing the flying, the effects will be lessened.

That being said, i have never been sick in an airplane (come close, but not quite there). A lot of my friends have been and they got over it by toughing it out.
Matt


So i just got to be a man?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:32:05 PM EDT
Not to hijack, but aren't there lots of mediv=cal restrictions to becoming a pilot? Like diabetics can't get licensed?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:33:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2005 6:34:08 PM EDT by Hawker]

Originally Posted By sierrabravofour:
Not to hijack, but aren't there lots of mediv=cal restrictions to becoming a pilot? Like diabetics can't get licensed?



Yes, howerver many things can be overcome with a waiver from the FAA
There is now a sports lisence that allows a pilot to fly certain aircraft with no medical at all.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:34:44 PM EDT
Hey Hawker! You arent a NetJets guy are you?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:36:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I love to fly, but the average flight instructor, which is the way most ppl start out to build hours to further their career, earns only 12,000 a year. Then you finally get a job at a regional airline 4 years down the road and you get a whopping 22,000 for the first year at the highest paid airline. It's a LONG hard road and has cost me many of the things I would have wanted in life. You have to not only love to fly, but you must get used to being poor for a long while.That is the truth.



Should I be concerned about motion sickness?



There are ways around it. It may take a while (months) to get it out of your system. Generally speaking, though, if you're doing the flying, the effects will be lessened.

That being said, i have never been sick in an airplane (come close, but not quite there). A lot of my friends have been and they got over it by toughing it out.
Matt


So i just got to be a man?



Something like that. haha!
Aviation can be the best job in the world - but you have to love flying, not necessarily the company, the platform or anything else - because all that can change in a heartbeat.

If you have the inclination, i highly recommend the military (Navy or Chair Force). Their flight school is like no other and they've got some pretty neat toys. And if job security is a concern, well, after flight school, they OWN you for at least 8 years. if you have any questions about that, feel free to PM me. if, however, i do not get right back to you, don't be offended, i'm rather busy.
Good Luck.
Matt
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:36:32 PM EDT
There's more I'd worry about than airsickness. A lot of people get queezy their first time up (mostly nerves). So don't let that deter you if you're worried about it.
Besides chicks dig pilots
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:36:32 PM EDT
nope.....why?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:36:56 PM EDT
Get into it early when you have few responsabilites , Or go Military . It'll will be god awful expensive if you do It on your own .
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:38:28 PM EDT
Air Force owns you for 10 now (that's after a year of pilot trainign), but who's counting?
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:43:16 PM EDT
I do envy the military pilots. My poor eyesight kept me from ever hoping to go military. I've since corrected it with lasers, but now I'm too old. I went the civil route, but now I wish I'd just got a high paying job in something I liked and just bought my own aircraft like so many guys I know.
Good luck in your choice!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:43:40 PM EDT
What do you do now SipAR? Flying is great! As of now I fly a King Air C90 up and down the east coast. The pay isnt bad for what I do. Just remember if you do decide to get into flying you wont be making much money in the first few years, unless you find that rare kick ass job. Commuter/ Regional airlines start their guys out earning less then 20K and alot less in some cases. The reason is in my opinion is that guys would fly for free if they could. Cargo flying can also be a rough job. Going to work at 7pm flying all night and getting back sometime in the morning to go do it again later that night. If you heart is set on flying go for it. There is nothing better imho (maybe playing bass for Iron Maiden would be better) just dont think that it is an easy job. Are you willing to put in 40K to get your licenses so you can earn money to fly? Are you willing to make less than a cab driver for several years? If so go for it!!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 6:46:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By valheru21:

Originally Posted By snipAR_15:

Originally Posted By Hawker:
I love to fly, but the average flight instructor, which is the way most ppl start out to build hours to further their career, earns only 12,000 a year. Then you finally get a job at a regional airline 4 years down the road and you get a whopping 22,000 for the first year at the highest paid airline. It's a LONG hard road and has cost me many of the things I would have wanted in life. You have to not only love to fly, but you must get used to being poor for a long while.That is the truth.



Should I be concerned about motion sickness?



There are ways around it. It may take a while (months) to get it out of your system. Generally speaking, though, if you're doing the flying, the effects will be lessened.

That being said, i have never been sick in an airplane (come close, but not quite there). A lot of my friends have been and they got over it by toughing it out.
Matt


So i just got to be a man?



Something like that. haha!
Aviation can be the best job in the world - but you have to love flying, not necessarily the company, the platform or anything else - because all that can change in a heartbeat.

If you have the inclination, i highly recommend the military (Navy or Chair Force). Their flight school is like no other and they've got some pretty neat toys. And if job security is a concern, well, after flight school, they OWN you for at least 8 years. if you have any questions about that, feel free to PM me. if, however, i do not get right back to you, don't be offended, i'm rather busy.
Good Luck.
Matt


I was thinking of getting a degree, join air force or reserves, building my hours, and THEN flying cargo.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:10:32 PM EDT
Medicals aren't as hard to get as everyone thinks they are. Also, you'll find that when you are the one flying the plane, motion sickness occurs much less often. There are wrist straps called relief bands that actually do work to help prevent motion sickness, too.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 7:18:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By valheru21:
after i land, i have never once said, "i need a new job."



You've never done much, then.

In 18 years and 1000 combat and imminent danger hours, I've said it almost as many times as I've said, "OH SHIT!!!"
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:52:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Villuj_idiot:

Originally Posted By valheru21:
after i land, i have never once said, "i need a new job."



You've never done much, then.

In 18 years and 1000 combat and imminent danger hours, I've said it almost as many times as I've said, "OH SHIT!!!"



you ever meant it?!? i didn't think so.
and no, i've not been to combat - yet. But we're talking about the simple act of flying - not combat.
Matt
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:55:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 3:59:26 AM EDT by ZitiForBreakfast]
I did both cargo hauling for .mil and .civ

I loved the flying in the Marines (KC-130's), hated the pay.

Loved the pay of the civilian side, hated the flying.

I had about 5,000 hours total time. I just stoped and quit one day.

I have not yet been back in a flight station, I have zero desire ever to do so again. I let all my ratings go away....

Pilots are glorified bus and truck drivers. My 1st year flying right seat for a B1900 regional carrier, I made $14K. I got hired doing heavy work, started off at 70k+ a but load of OT.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:01:53 AM EDT
yea? well i want to be a DENTIST..but this stupid elf supervisor just wants me to make toys...

<­BR>

silver and gold...silver and gold...
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 2:56:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cleatus:
yea? well i want to be a DENTIST..but this stupid elf supervisor just wants me to make toys...

<­BR>

silver and gold...silver and gold...



HAHA!!!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:21:27 PM EDT
Fly Navy dude, fly Navy!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:23:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SemperMO:
I want C-130
And my MOS is aircraft support

Pat



Again, Go Navy, request FTS and beleive me, You Will Not Regret It!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:33:16 PM EDT
As a Captain for an airline I can tell you that I love my job. I made $400 today reloading ammo in my garage on reserve. It can be tough and intimidating at times, but once you make it to a paying job it will all be worth it. I would'nt worry about your motion sickness as I had it and lost it 4,000 hours ago. I cant answer military questions but IM me with airline questions if you like.. Good Luck
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:29:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 8:23:18 PM EDT by snipAR_15]

Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
Fly Navy dude, fly Navy!




Why Navy?

Air force has cooler planes.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 11:38:50 PM EDT
Having known flaperon for nearly 15 years he definately paid his dues!
And heed his advice, make sure it's more than a job.
And Cargo Jobs are appealing, "boxes don't bitch"...

myitinaw
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:02:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 12:03:51 AM EDT by Warthog86]

Originally Posted By Cleatus:
yea? well i want to be a DENTIST..but this stupid elf supervisor just wants me to make toys...

<­BR>

silver and gold...silver and gold...



Nobody want's a charlie-in-the-box!

hhh...the
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 12:12:47 AM EDT
I've always been under the impression that the money is horrible, unless you get with a large commercial carrier. The problem is the number of people who fly and those who want jobs. Like police or fire or doctors. Very few seats and knowing someone makes all the world in getting in. Maybe I'm wrong, but for the money it costs to become a pilot and go through all the certifications, 40,000 or less is pretty bad. The guy across the street flies corporate jets, and strongly advised me about the potential for a decent job. He made 40,000 for years and couldn't get hired anywhere else. He just recently got a job making 80,000 and he's in his 50s.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 6:18:38 AM EDT
Two lucrative opportunites for the older flyers now are flying for timeshare jet operations and possibly the DEA. The Drug Enforcement guys fly business jets with F-16 type electronics in them looking for drug lords in the sky . . . .

Other than that most of the pilots I know that are retiring tell me not to pursue flying for a living. Reasons given are instability, influx of "gays" in the cockpit , and the CEO's screwing over everybody to keep their vacation homes in order.
Link Posted: 9/9/2005 7:24:17 AM EDT
Resident poor flight instructor here:

Its fun, stressful, rewarding, dangerous, and downright cool to fly airplanes for a living. Just dont plan on making any money doing it.

Unless your my dad, who makes 200k+ at AA.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:45:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CFII:
Resident poor flight instructor here:

Its fun, stressful, rewarding, dangerous, and downright cool to fly airplanes for a living. Just dont plan on making any money doing it.

Unless your my dad, who makes 200k+ at AA.


Who did he get on an airliner?
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:53:23 PM EDT

Subject: Why Airline Pilots Should Make $200,000 (or more)
Date: Feb 20, 2001

The airline business is an equal opportunity career field. Airlines, including Delta, American, United, and Northwest are hiring
loads of pilots right now. You, too, can find yourself in the cockpit of a 767, 727, A-300 or any other commercial aircraft
out there in the skies. The airlines hire regardless of race, religion, age or sex. They are literally the epitome of the equal
opportunity employer. All it takes is enough intelligence to obtain an application, fill it out and send it back to personnel for
consideration. That's it!! Then you may be offered an entry level position as a pilot with any of the airlines, at a starting
pay of $25,000 - 28,000 per year. Congratulations.....You're on the start of your flying career.......Or are you????

Let's see, the current qualification requirements, to even be called in for an interview, are as follows: 4 year college degree
(no problem, if you have a home computer in order to participate in this cyber dribble, then you've got that); physically able
to pass an FAA Class 1 exam (assuming that you dont spend all of your time sitting on your brains at the computer, then
maybe youll be able to pass.); and oh yeah, you've got to have completed the Flight Engineer written exam, have
multi-engine, commercial / instrument ratings and it wouldn't hurt to have the Airline Transport Rating (typed in something
larger than your Lazy Boy recliner). Generally speaking, the current averages of new hire pilots at the airlines are: 3,300
hours total flying time, 2,700 hours multi-engine/turbo, with 1,200 hours pilot-in-command. (Sorry, sitting on your sofa,
eating pizza and surfing the channels with your TV remote doesnt count as a single minute of Instrument time!)

What??? You don't have the minimum qualifications to even be called in for an interview???!!! Well get off your lazy can and
go get qualified. Remember, age is not a factor. You can be 60 years old and still get hired as a Flight Engineer - sorry the
federal government says you can't fly past age 60, but you can be a plumber. Over 95 percent of the pilots at Delta Air
Lines have military backgrounds. That's all you have to do.....join the military, go to pilot training and spend 9 years on
active duty flying airplanes. You'll be able to build the hours of experience necessary to qualify for the airlines, get paid
while youre doing it and get to see the world at the same time.

What???? Can't get selected to go to pilot training because of the incredibly stringent requirements to get through the
door???!!! Oh, don't want to PAY THE PRICE of having to serve your country, subject to the needs of the service and move
every 2-3 years. Even then, you don't know whether or not the airlines will be hiring when you finally gain enough
experience and complete your contract with Uncle Sam!

Just what are those high entrance standards? Let's see. For every pilot slot there are approximately 50 who apply. From
those selected, they enter a flight screening (aka washout) program that eliminates half of the group. From there you go on
to Undergraduate Pilot Training (for the Air Force, the Navy has a similar program under a different name) for an entire year.
Work hard, because only two out of three that enter graduate. Let's do some quick math. You are in a room with a group of
people who all want to become military pilots. In fact, there are 150 of you. Guess what? Two years later only one of you
will get to walk across a stage and get your wings pinned on. Ouch.

Then you get to hit the operational side. Whoa, first you've got to get through RTU (Training unit, about a 5% washout
rate here). Now, you are off to the real world, training to fight or flying operational missions. Now, after nine years of this,
the airline career is ahead of you. Wait a minute, I just glossed over one minor area. You see, you have to SURVIVE your
time on active duty. Let's look at one squadron and the facts. This squadron of 40 pilots lost one pilot a year for four years.
I know these numbers are correct because I was in that squadron. Do the math and you see that the odds of simply
surviving a four year tour is approximately 90%. Those odds don't seem so bad, unless you are the one whose life depends
on it. Those might seem like just statistics, but go to a few funerals, see the widows and children, and that 90% takes on a
whole new meaning. And guess what, those numbers don't even take into account a real live war, and I'm not alking about
the wars the stock traders talk about in the stock pits. They use real live bullets in this shooting match.

Ah, no problem, if you can't or won't make it via the military route, then you can always go the civilian path to the
airlines.... Remember those hours of experience???? If not, your short term memory is in doubt which may be a factor in
your abilities to fly airplanes and make life threatening decisions - reread four paragraphs previous. Those average of 3,300
hours dont come free on the civilian side of the equation either. Youll probably need to start flying as soon as you get your
drivers license in order to build those levels of hours before your life times out on the mortality tables. It'll cost you at least
$2,000 to get your basic flying license: single engine, land; capable of avoiding clouds, weather less than clear and a million
miles visibility, severe crosswinds and minimum night. Now, congratulations, you've got about 40-60 hours towards that
3,300.....get going, you've got a ways to go. Start paying for some more flying time, sport. It'll cost you 30-40 dollars per
hour to rent a single engine Piper to fly your buddies around and look at the corn fields. Figure it out genius, it's going to be
expensive to build several thousand hours. And don't forget, even if mom and dad are footing the bill for you, 3,000 hours of
Piper Cherokee time wont get you through American, United, Delta or anyone else's doors for a peek at the application
stack!!

Thats right, youre going to have to get those other ratings. No problem. You're a smart person. Just buy some more
Instructor time, study some more stacks of books, go to more ground schools, shell out several thousand more dollars,
spend thousands of hours studying some more, get that dual instruction time, take more tests, pass more physicals and
you'll get that Instrument rating - maybe in that same Piper Cherokee. Congratulations! But guess what.....tha'ts right, you
still aren't close to being qualified. You now have somewhere around 200-300 hours; enough to have the minimum
necessary to go for a Commercial license. So, you pay, study, fly, study, pay, pay, pay, fly, pay, study, test, fly, pay, pay,
fly, study, test......and finally get your Commercial ticket. Great!! Now you can be paid to fly - that'll help. But you still only
have 300 or so hours flying, not enough (remember 3,300 hours) to land a seat with the Big Boys. Don't give up yet, oh
Mr/Ms Wannabee, you're on your way. If you want it bad enough, you'll keep going. If you don't want it bad enough, YOU'LL
QUIT, SIT BACK AND WHINE ABOUT THOSE THAT SUCCEED!!! Not you though, you press on....

Get out the check book, buy some more time. You've got to get that multi-engine experience in order to get hired by some
civilian company so you can build your time. You study, pay, fly (multi-engine now - so double the hourly rate), pay, pay,
fly, pay, study, fly, pay, study, pay, pay some more, fly, test, study, fly, pay and finally - you've got that multi-engine
rating. So, with all those ratings now, multi-engine, Instrument and the all important, Commercial ticket, you can get a job
flying airplanes. Oh, not for the airlines; hell, the commuters won't even touch you yet. But you might land yourself a job
hauling canceled checks for some company. Thatll be working the boneyard shift - midnight to 6 a.m. But you'll get paid
minimum wage to fly (and build those hours). Remember, youre determined to get qualified for the Majors!! Or maybe youll
get hired to fly parachute jumpers. That'll get you a couple of hours per day. It's probably not turbo prop time, but it
counts towards the total. No matter, if you work real hard, fly all the time (you do have to have some minimum rest as
required by the FAA) you may be able to build 1,000 hours per year! At some point in time though, my future aviation
professional friend, you've got to get that turbine / jet engine time. Yep, pay, pay, study, fly, test, pay, fly, test, pay, pay
and more pay.

Finally, you've beat through the trenches of aviation to get enough hours and experience to qualify for a position flying as a
co-pilot for one of the commuter airlines like ASA, ComAir, American Eagle or United Express. You apply, interview and get
hired!! Again, congratulations - you've made another hurdle. Now you're building that commercial aviation experience. Oh,
by the way, you're only making $14,000 per year starting - if you're lucky!! You'll get to do this for at least 2-3 years to
build that 3,000 hours of experience and at some point in time, move over to the left seat to build that pilot-in-command
(PIC) time. Looking at the years of struggling to this point, youre probably wishing you had gone the military route - of
course, you didn't choose that option!!

So you press on....Now, regardless of whether you went the military or civilian route, there's been some substantial risks.
Throughout your career you've been subjected to annual physicals (in some cases, every 6 months) that could have easily
disqualified you, forever, from your chosen aviation career field. On top of that, guess what, the FAA has been closely
watching you every step of the way. Fail to pass the written exams - you're history. Fail to pass the orals - you're history.
Fail to pass the flying tests - you're history. No pressure. There's more....your FAA friends have a whole stack of books of
regulations governing your life as a pilot and the operation of every single airplane you lift off the ground. Here's the risk:
SCREW UP ONE TIME, JUST ONCE, AND BREAK AN AIRPLANE, HURT SOMEONE, OR JUST COME CLOSE - AND THEY TAKE YOUR LICENSES AWAY FROM YOU. FOREVER !!!! They don't care how many years and thousands of dollars you spent getting to this point in your career......they don't care how badly you want to become a commercial airline pilot, ........you
can beg, plead, get down on your whiny knees and cry.......THEY DON'T CARE !! YOU'RE HISTORY!!!! Congratulations, your
lifetime of work has just been trashed for a simple mistake. Unfortunately, there are no big margins of error in this business.
Unlike working at MacDonalds, or as a marketing rep selling coat hangers, or some computer geek writing software or selling
shoes at Macys, when you screw up, you stand the risk of KILLING PEOPLE! This ain't no PUSS GAME!!
But it's okay, you knew the risks, the requirements, the qualifications. YOU KNEW THE PRICE YOU'D HAVE To PAY!! And you also knew how easily it can all be jerked out from under you. So you've chosen to spend your LIFETIME studying to remain
highly qualified and to get eligible for another step in the professional aviation ladder. It goes with the territory. But there
are rewards commensurate with your choice. For one: you love to fly! That's why you're here. Second: there is a chance
that someday, if all goes well, you may make it to the Majors and earn a good living, again, commensurate with being a
professional pilot. And besides, if this were easy to do, EVERYONE WOULD Be DOING IT!! The requirements to cut it in this
business make it such that it automatically weeds out the sniffling wannabees. You either have the mental and physical
abilities coupled with the desire and DETERMINATION or youre sitting on the sideline -WHINING!! After 9 years on active
duty in the military, or the equivalent on the civilian side, you've gotten the licenses and experience qualifying you to apply
at the Majors. Unfortunately, the major airlines aren't like Exxon gas stations: there simply isn't one on every street corner
hiring someone to pump gas. Any one airline is probably hiring no more than 1,000 pilots per year - and that's a really big
year. You may think you have what they're looking for, but guess what, so does every other pilot applying for that position.
So the competition just elevated to another notch higher. Odds are more in favor of you NOT getting hired than of getting
hired!! After two or three airline interviews, you might get lucky and get hired by a startup carrier - paying less than a
person on the UAW assembly line. No problem, you'll keep applying to the other carriers even though you generally only
have one opportunity. A NO is generally a no for the rest of your career. But you'll keep trying.

Even if you do get lucky and hired by a Major, there's more years of dues to pay, studying, hard work, long days, short
nights and hurdles to cross. The FAA not only watches you on paper, they sit on your jumpseat and watch over your
shoulder. They analyze, criticize and evaluate every move you make. They're there for your orals, writtens, simulator
checks and rating rides. They show up unannounced any time they choose. They check you and recheck you; sometimes
two days in a row from different examiners. One big error now, sport, and you don't get bumped back to the Minors, you
get bounced out on your ass!! You again accept the fact that youve chosen to live a life in a profession that with any
mistake you are AUTOMATICALLY GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT!!

But it's okay, because the risks are high, therefore the standards must be even higher!! You're no longer talking about
dinging in your little Cherokee with your buds on board. Were talking about anywhere from 100 to 400 passengers
(depending on the airplane) on board who are betting their lives that you MEET OR EXCEED THOSE HIGH STANDARDS.
They're betting that when that engine fails, the hydraulic system quits or the flight controls stop working that you have the
knowledge, experience and highly trained skill to safely land that airplane on a short runway, in weather that you wont take
your Honda Accord out in to buy your pizza. Therein lies the blessing and the problem: passengers. Since deregulation, the
prices for tickets have become increasingly competitive. In fact, the cut throat marketing schemes of some airlines have
caused tickets prices to be so low that it is now cheaper to fly than to take the Greyhound bus. Hence, the business takes
on the look and feel of mass transportation. More competition, lower ticket prices, more passengers. Through the process
weve lowered the standards. Average tickets prices down, thus reduced revenues, and consequently a huge reduction in
the standard of service. The simple fact of the matter, people, is that you cannot expect to get 1st class service for below
Greyhound prices on your tickets. You don't go to the Cadillac dealer and expect to pay Yugo prices. Heres an economic
question for you: when you go to the grocery store, the gas station, make a long distance telephone call, buy a new
modem or a new pair of shoes, do you think you pay LESS for that product or service than what it costs the business to
SUPPLY it? Nope. But the marketing gurus in the airlines business sell seats for less than it costs to produce them.

So costs are out of sight. Gotta lower the overhead. We'll cut back on our service: no meals, minimum number of flight
attendants to provide service, fewer agents, etc. In fact, we'll out source everything we can to lower costs. Well lay off
tens of thousands of dedicated and loyal employees so we can contract with outside companies to fuel our planes, clean
em, handle baggage and even work the gates. Those companies hire at minimum wage and with no benefits. So guess
what, there is no employee loyalty, dedication or commitment. If its a rainy, cold Saturday in Chicago, the minimum wage
ramp workers won't show up for work. What's the contractor going to do, fire them and hire more minimum wage employees
with the same dedication? So your bags get lost, or stolen, or just dont get put on the plane. The flight is late because
there's not enough fuelers to fuel the airplane. You're pissed because the flight's late and it never crosses your mind that it
might be because of your $79.00 round trip airfare from Chicago to Miami. You don't apply the same "you get what you pay
for logic" to your airline ticket that you do when you go shopping for a new automobile. You expect to have your ass kissed
for the $39.50 for that flight segment. Hell, you can't buy a hooker to kiss your cheek for that amount of money!!

Guess what you think you can do for your $39.50?? You feel like you have the constitutional right to defecate, urinate and
vomit in the seat; leaving it for someone else to clean up. You throw your trash on the floor and walk away from it. You'll
change your babys diaper on the tray table, wad up the pamper full of baby crap and leave it in the seatback pocket. And
then you whine that youre paying too much for your ticket, the plane's late, or that seats are too cramped. Guess what?? I
wouldn't ride in your car and treat you that way - why treat the professionals in the aviation community that way??!!
Because - YOU DON,T CARE !!!! You want the most you can get for the least you have to pay for it!

Unfortunately, the airline managements have cut back their services to the point that they can't cut anymore. So they look
to the only other source of cutting - employee salaries and benefits. For the non contract (non-union) groups its easy to
scalp. They don't have any protection from irresponsible management who are only interested in the bottom line. But if you
happen to be fortunate enough to have the protection of a professional organization (unions like ALPA or APA) then its a
little bit tougher to slaughter. You see, even though management has reduced the standards of the products they sell, the
standard by which professional pilots are subjected to have not been reduced!! The price pilots have had to pay is still
there. The risks and the requirements still remain. Passengers may want the most they can get for the least dollar, but they
still want those pilots to have the experience/qualifications commensurate with requirements of operating aircraft, full of
passengers, in an intense and risk filled environment! I hate to tell you this, sport, but that doesn't come FREE!! If you want
it, youve got to pay for it!!

Now let's fold in record profits being reaped by airline management. Not to mention huge salaries and bonuses for executives
at the airlines. Without exception, the salaries of professional pilots throughout the business have not kept pace with the
cost of living for the past decade. Simply put, airline pilots are making less than they were 10 years ago, yet you keep
charging more each year for that new color TV, automobile, gallon of milk or tank of gas.

So, after 25 years of flying experience, tests, physical exams, simulator checks, military service, etc., etc, I finally reach
the left seat of an airplane in the service of a commercial carrier. Yep, I also get a 6 figure income. Tell me, why shouldnt
I??? If anyone could get here, then this profession wouldn't have the added benefit of a nice salary. It doesn't require a
doctor the same number of years to get to 6 figures, yet, no one denies that surgeon is worth every penny when you're
laying on the table with your chest sliced open and a rib splitter making a hole large enough to reach through. And a
surgeon only kills them one at a time when he screws up!! I don't hear you whining about stock brokers getting 6 figure
incomes. You don't seem to have any problem with paying $100 to take your family to a professional baseball game to
watch a 19 year-old play ball for $1 million per year!! But for some reason, you are pissed off that professional airline pilots
are eventually compensated with a 6 figure income.

And you want to whine about their retirement? Statistically, only 1 out of every 3 pilots entering this profession will ever
make it to retirement. Thats a 66 percent chance that I'll never see the lump-sum numbers that you want to bitch about.
And guess what, if it weren't for collective bargaining, contracts, unions and federal regulations, reckless managements
would be robbing those retirement funds like Jesse James. Thank goodness there are unions out there protecting the earned
benefits of professionals.

So why shouldn't the pilots at American, United, Delta or any other union carrier, fight for the survival of their profession.
Obviously managements have forgotten (or selectively forget) what it took to get in the pilots seat (managements are
predominately non-pilots) and what it takes to remain there for a full career. Executives would like to ignore their own high
salaries, bonuses and benefits and rather ignite the public and fellow employees against the 6 figure salaries of the
professional pilots.

So you, in your ignorance, jump on that bashing bandwagon without being armed with the facts. The fact of the matter is
this: If you, or any other living, breathing, whining non-achiever wants to make the 6 figure income of a professional pilot -
its an open door thats available to you. I've laid it out for you. Its there for the taking. All you have to do is go for it. You
can't sit on the sideline and whine though. Whining won't get you into the Captains seat on a B-767. You also can't leap
from your Piper Cherokee into the left seat of that B-777 or B-727. There are no short cuts!! But you can get there; many
have made it. So can you. But if you don't want it bad enough to pay the price, or you dont have the commitment,
dedication, enthusiasm or determination to get there.....then STOP YOUR BITCHING.

Because, you see, just as much as you obviously don't care what it takes for an individual to make it to the left seat of a
B-747 with 400 passengers on board, we dont give a rats ass that you don't care !! We'll do what we have to do to protect
our profession, careers, benefits and salaries. It wasn't a cake walk to get here.....thats obvious because you're not among
those that have SUCCEEDED.

Have another slice of pizza, flip to a different channel and stop bashing those who chose a tougher career.

DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS!!! A lot has been said and written in the press concerning pilots' salaries and
compensation. We have been told about how much it will cost our company, our job has been compared to others, and
various subtle and not so subtle threats and intimidation tactics have been hurled at our group. In light of the current
situation, please allow me, a pilot to give you a small glimpse into my world...

DON'T COMPARE MY JOB TO OTHER JOBS!!!
...How many boardrooms explode over Long Island Sound?
...How many meetings conclude with hundreds of dead bodies?
...How many trucks cost $82 million dollars?
...How many doctors spend half the month away from their families?
...Do the children of media representatives cry when Daddy puts on his uniform to go to work because they know he'll be
gone for a week?
...How many salesmen lose their jobs because they have high blood pressure?
...How many lawyers spent Christmas alone in a crash pad?
...When your wife is watching TV and the program is interrupted by a news flash of an aircraft accident, does she
momentarily freeze in fear for what she might hear?
There is not another profession in the world where the consequences for mistakes are so catastrophic and unforgiving.
THE PRICE
...I pay the price when somebody loads full oxygen containers in the cargo hold
...I pay the price when a terrorist has a bone to pick
...I pay the price when loaders forget to set the locks
...I pay the price when engineers design a fuel pump incorrectly
...I pay the price when Mother Nature decides to shift the winds...
YOU SPEAK OF THE COST
...Ask the CEO of Value Jet the cost of a DC-9 buried in the Everglades...The Cost..
...Ask Fred Smith the cost to scrape a DC-10 and MD-11 from the runways at Steward and Newark...The Cost
...Ask Korean Airlines the cost of a 747 that didn't quite make the runway at Guam... The Cost
...Ask Fine Air the cost to clean up a DC-8 off a Miami Street... The Cost
...Ask Bob Crandall the cost of a B-757 impacting a Columbian mountain...The Cost
...And if not for their Cool, Calm, Professionalism, what could have been the cost of a UPS B-727 that suddenly went dark
and silent four miles above Chicago? How much were they worth to you that night? Industry standard or 25 % below? ......
The Cost
WHEN YOU TRY TO INTIMIDATE ME, REMEMBER
...It was I who flew Cobra gunships in the jungles of Vietnam while you worked on your masters degree
...It was I who sits alone at the tip of an F-18 in the silent instant before I am catapulted over a cold, dark sea, while you
slept peacefully in your bed
...It was I who, one night watched my wings grow heavy with ice, miles from the safety of the nearest airport praying that
I had enough fuel to find clear skies, while you watched Monday night football
...It was I who flew a C-130 into Panamanian gunfire, while you decorated your Christmas tree in 1989
...It was I who faced head-on the fourth largest army in the world over the deserts of Iraq and brought it to its knees,
while you watched it on CNN
...It was I who landed an A-6 on a floating piece of tarmac no bigger than your backyard, while you mowed yours
...It was I who orbited in unarmed tankers over enemy territory to replenish others sworn to protect you
...It was I who watched missiles and bullets blossom in my face, yet didn't turn and run, while you watched the flowers in
your garden blossom
...It was I who buried a friend
...It is I who knows a little boy who will never play catch with his Dad, so that you may play with your grandchild.
Sir, please don't try to intimidate me.
I am not your enemy, I am your asset, an asset that has experienced and accomplished things few others dare to try.
Realize this and there a few obstacles we can't overcome.
Link Posted: 9/11/2005 5:55:24 PM EDT
SO, You want to be an airline pilot?

I walked into the interview with a great deal of confidence and enthusiasm. Flying airplanes was my one true passion in this life. This was my big chance to merge my occupation with my love. I would become an airline pilot.

"So you want to be an airline pilot?" the interviewer inquired. "Yes, sir, more than anything else I have ever wanted," I replied,
realizing I sounded like an anxious adolescent.
"Well, great, welcome aboard," the airline executive said.
"You mean I'm hired?!" I cheered.
"You bet, we're glad to have you. Actually, we've had trouble finding good pilots to hire," the exec explained. If I was surprised, it was overshadowed by my joy of reaching my dream.

"Let's just go over a few points before you sign on the dotted line," the company man chortled. "We're going to send you to the world's most renowned medical center. They'll spend two days probing you body orifices, draining and analyzing your blood, and administering psychological exams. They'll literally take you apart and put you back together. If they find any hint of current or future problems, you're fired and can find your own ride home."
"Gee, I think my health is O. K.," I nervously choked out. The manager went on, "Good, next we'll evaluate your flying skills in an aircraft you've never been in before. "If we don't like the way you perform, you're fired," I was confident with my flying, but this guy was making me nervous. He continued, "Next, if you're still here, we'll run you through our training program. If during any time in the next 10 years you decide to leave the company, you'll have to reimburse us $20,000, or we'll sue you. Also if you fail to measure up during training, you're fired."

The man who had just given me my dream job listed still more hurdles. "Each time, before we allow you near one of our multimillion dollar aircraft we'll X-ray your flight bag and luggage, because we don't trust you. Also we'll ask you to pass through a magnetometer each time. If you fail to do so, you'll be arrested and jailed." "When you've completed your flight, we'll have you provide a urine sample, because we don't trust you to not take drugs. Very soon, we plan to take a blood sample to look for more drugs. "Also if you ever fly with another crew member who may have used drugs or alcohol, you must report to us immediately. If you fail to notice that anyone has used these substances, you'll be fired, have your license to fly revoked, and be fined $10,000."
"Every six months, we want you to go back to the medical center for another exam. If they ever find a hint of a problem, your license to fly will be revoked and we'll fire you. Anytime you see a medical person, you must tell us about it so we can see if you need to be grounded and terminated.
Also, we need to examine your driving record, and you must tell us if you have even any minor infractions so we can remove you from the cockpit as soon as possible." "At any time, without notice, a special branch of the government will send one of its inspectors to ride in your aircraft. The inspector will demand to see your papers and license, If your papers are not in order, you'll be removed, fined, terminated, and possibly jailed."
"If at any time you make an error in judgment or an honest human mistake, you will be terminated, be fined tens of thousands of dollars, and be dragged through months of court proceedings. The government will make sure you never fly again for any airline."
Smiling an evil smile now, the airline hirer went on. "Oh, and one last thing to cover. Occasionally, we in management fail to see a trend and screw up royally or the country's economy falls flat on its face. If as a result of one of those events the corporation begins to lose money, you as an employee will be expected to make up the losses from your paycheck."

"Now sign here," he pointed, grinning as he handed me a pen. I faked a sudden nosebleed. Holding my head back and pinching my nostrils, I hurried from his office. When I got to the hall, I began to run. I ran all the way to my car. I figured if I hurried I could still get to the county vocational school before 5:00 and enroll in the industrial welding career program.

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