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Posted: 9/8/2005 6:44:58 PM EDT
[#1]
I couldn't agree with you more. There is two things that I simply refuse to do. I would NOT forcibly remove someone from their personal property, if they refused to evacuate, and I damn sure WOULDN'T disarm a law abiding citizen. Just when I thought that Kali was the most socialist, liberal state in the country........then this in Louisiana.
If that bullshit ever happens here, I'm switching sides! I realize that it's easy to say, when I'm all secure here in the bastion of freedom, but I have some deep-rooted issues with disarmament of the law-abiding public. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 6:47:21 PM EDT
[#2]
 I'm repulsed by it. We've got guys down there right now, I hope they aren't involved in this.  |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 7:34:56 PM EDT
[#3]
As I understand it marshall law was declared and as such may constitutional provisions are suspended. Marshal Law definition
a system of complete control by a country's military over all activities, including civilian, in a theoretical or actual war zone, or during a period of emergency caused by a disaster such as an earthquake or flood, with the military commander having dictatorial powers. In the United States martial law must be ordered by the President as commander-in-chief and must be limited to the duration of the warfare or emergency. It cannot result in a long-term denial of constitutional rights, such as habeas corpus, the right to a trial, and to free press. Martial law was ordered in contested areas during the Civil War (but the Supreme Court ruled President Abraham Lincoln's suspension of the writ of habeas corpus was unconstitutional), and during the San Francisco earthquake and fire in 1906 when the city was in ruins, tens of thousands were homeless, and looting and disease posed great dangers to the public. Misuse of martial law, such as destruction of the veterans' encampment in Washington, D.C. under President Herbert Hoover, has proved unpopular in the United States. In many foreign countries martial law has become a method to establish and maintain dictatorships either by military leaders or politicians backed by the military. Martial law is not to be confused with "military law," which governs the conduct of the military services and applies only to service men and women. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 8:34:50 PM EDT
[#4]
The President has NOT declared Martial Law for NOLA. Even so, there is a huge difference in catching a street roaming thug packing an AK47, and confronting an armed homeowner who is protecting their personal property. I came into this LE business 21 years ago, when a responding officer was allowed to use personal judgement (read: common sense). I have adhered to that philosophy to this date, and regardless of what some idiot supervisor with half of my experience says, I will make the call on the street.
It'll be a cold day in hell before I participate in this wholesale disarming of the public! I guess that I'm becoming a "dinosaur" in my mentality, but I won't let this liberal gubmint mentality rob me of my decision making authority! Rookies pay attention here. I am intimately familiar with the 2nd Amendment, and I do believe that I swore to protect that part of the US Constitution. Correct me if I'm wrong here please. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:01:57 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm not sure, but with Louisiana's laws, passed by elected representatives, that give the Governor power to declare a state of emergency and the right to declare a mandatory evacuation, I'd say that those who refuse to obey the evacuation order would be considered to have committed a crime, and until the city's emptied out and they no longer have to worry about anybody except authorized workers in there, they will continue to need to provide extensive public safety services rather than being able to deal more simply with an empty city that needs extensive draining and cleaning, before people are allowed back in to rebuild. Sounds like they say no guns in the city, so either stay and lose your guns, or leave with them. Sounds fair to me. Just my thoughts on the matter. There are some who might say the man's home is his castle. Maybe. What happens when you stick around, get some virus... maybe, E-Coli, then need evacuated, and are now contagious...
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:12:57 PM EDT
[#6]
You LEOs are fantastic, I wish we were neighbors,
but I'm afraid that you decent, Constitutionaly minded persons are the minority. You are "thinkers". I believe that the majority of people in your field of work are not as adept at separating their careers from their Constitutional duties and responsibilities. When the time comes, we'll be standing together, and against the majority of the other "Brothers of the Shield". myit |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:13:26 PM EDT
[#7]
It's my understanding first, that the governor did not declare a mandatory evacuation, only the New Orleans Mayor did, citing his authority from Louisiana law. The governor and mayor are at odds over the authority to do this anyway. However, my opinion is that any such authority would be difficult to enforce, especially in the residents homes. It would have to specifically list "failing to evacuate" as a crime, and would have to provide penalties for such "violations". My guess is that this is not the case. In addition, if it were a crime to not evacuate, there could not be a provision that would allow warrantless entry into a home to effect the evacuation. I would suspect that a judge would not sign a warrant to remove someone from their home without having committed a listed, criminal offense. Regarding weapons confiscation, you are right, this is a slippery slope. However, the intent (in my opinion) is to be able to identify looters, criminals, and thugs, and by disarming everyone, the thought process must be that they are making things safer. Look, LEO's are taking fire on a daily basis, and rescue helicopters are being fired upon. Having said that, I am not intimately familiar with what exactly the law enforcement officers in NOLA are doing. Are they disarming folks inside their homes? Or are they disarming folks wading through the streets? Either way, I smell a huge lawsuit being filed once this is over. Especially if they are just simply confiscating guns and letting people go without a charge. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:15:39 PM EDT
[#8]
I don't think you have the option of leaving with them.
If you have them you will give them up, period. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:16:44 PM EDT
[#9]
The owner of a 2 million dollar mansion,
handcuffed and sitting on his curb, isn't the "firing at choppers" type. He's in that condition for LEOs safety while being disarmed... LEOs will take orders no matter how absurd or unconstitutional. And they'll confiscate lawn darts, guns, knives,and kiddie pools if ordered to do so.
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:17:51 PM EDT
[#10]
My thought on this is as follows:
Since they declared a "State of Emergency" for health reasons, now they can take your guns. Later on, they will realize they can do it against for the same crappy reason. All they have to do now is declare any other type of an emergency, pick one, any one, health, lawlessness, terrorism, even a riot based on a jury verdict, just like in Los Angeles, and take your guns. See the slippery slope. Once this is allowed, where will it stop. I can just hear it now: "Oh my God, little johnny has been shot on the playground, we must delcare an emergency and search every house around the school and take all the guns, its for the children ! ! !" As for mandatory evacuation, the people stay or they leave. I been in this business for more than 20 years, I learned this in the first year, YOU CAN'T SAVE PEOPLE FROM THEMSELVES. If they are prepared, armed, and on their own property, so what ? That is more than the Mayor and the Governor can or could say ! |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:22:26 PM EDT
[#11]
By-the-by, The Congress and the President of the U.S. did not declare Martial Law. Even if the Governor of Louisiana could do it, and I don't think she can, how does that suspend or supersede the first ten amendments of the U.S. Constitution ? Answer It doesn't. She cannot waive, suspend, supersede, or infringe on anyones rights, that's why it takes an act of Congress through the President, not some lame ass Governor. FWIW |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:28:22 PM EDT
[#12]
SgtWhiting
This really makes me sick. How easily, seamlessly, and without hesitiation that the LEOs are actually doing the unthinkable, and the unconstitutional. I hope this is a great "wake-up" for Americans, but it won't be... As Neal Boortz says "The Wussification of America is nearly complete"..... myit |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:29:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Sorry Myitinaw, not every LEO will do as you see on the news. I used to go onto the GD thread and defend LEO's simply because I was an LEO and know the in-and-outs of it. After today, No more. The rogue cops are on their own. Most people don't know this or understand this. Once they see a bad cop it is like the "One bad apple spoils the whole barrel........." routine. One bad cops means all cops are bad. They think cops can't investigate themselves. Most of the time, they could not be further from the truth. All good cops hate bad cops worse than the public, mainly because we know it makes us look bad and we feel ashamed. I am watching the cops in NOLA today, and I am ashamed for my profession. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:30:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Kudos to you Sgt. I know it's difficult for you. And us too..
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:34:57 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm not justifying it. In fact, if you read my post, I think I provide valid reasons why not only a mandatory evacuation by force isn't constitutional, but that confiscation of legitimate weapons isn't either.
I was simply trying to explain my point of view as to what is happening on the ground and why the politicos seem to think they can do it. If you haven't picked up on it by now, the mayor and police superintendent are a couple of ignorant, backslapping asspipes, and the governor of Louisiana probably can't decide whether to shit or piss without an advisor, and even then, she'd crap or wet her pants before she finally decided.
Yeah, and how many times have you heard that the guy that massacred co-workers, is convicted as a serial killer, rapist, child molester, the list goes on........that they "aren't the type". I'll give you another example: There are times, out in the middle of nowhere, or by myself that I have to stop a hunter or some other person for a report of poaching or trespassing. Most hunters are good, law abiding, gun owning citizens, that wouldn't even think of trying to pop off a shot at me. Do I just take that chance and hope for the best? No, I ask them politely to either unload or secure their weapons for the moment, conduct my investigation, and nine times out of ten send them on their way. I'm not going to take the chance, and LEO's everywhere should be safe first and foremost. Again, I'm not certain of the circumstances in NOLA right now regarding weapons confiscation, but anytime that I encounter anyone with a gun, I'm going to request they disarm first, figure things out, and if they are legal and legit - let them go. Be clear - I am a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment, and I am a 13 year Law Enforcement veteran myself. I don't believe legal gun owners and citizens should be forced to relinquish weapons at all. I was just trying to explain my opinion. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:36:38 PM EDT
[#16]
By the way, on a side note.
The LA County Sheriff's Dept. sent a team of swift water rescue deputies and support psersonnel to NOLA, complete with boats, gear, tents, sleeping bags, water, food, and equipment. These guys are some of the best at water rescues I have ever seen. Good guys one and all. They set up a camp, deployed in their boats on their first day ready to rock and roll. They saved approx. 35-36 people from the crappy water environment they were in. After a long day, the came back to camp. Know what they found ? Their camp had been jacked, looted, torn up, gear missing or outright stolen. Pretty much nothing left. This is just one of many horror stories getting back to me from friends in harm's way. Now they are taking guns away from people. Pretty frustrating, isn't it ? |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:39:23 PM EDT
[#17]
I hear you and understand. I just want to know that the cops in NOLA know it too. Apparently they do not. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:40:01 PM EDT
[#18]
You watch a 45-second newsclip, and now you have lumped us all into one basket. You couldn't be further from the truth. Do you think the mainstream media is going to chase the story of the LEO's who refuse to participate in the disarmament? Hardly! You base your opinions on what the media force feeds you on a daily basis, and you will swiftly become one of the "sheeple'. Trust me, I've been dealing with these reporters for two decades, and they aren't interested in the truth. If they don't have the facts, then they will fabricate them. If they have the facts, and it doesn't jive with their producers agenda, they just spin it to fit the mold. The media is there for two reasons. One to boost ratings, and second to entertain the masses. Don't believe all that the television entertains you with. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:40:40 PM EDT
[#19]
Are they giving receipts for the confiscated property. They are searching all homes for any firearm and confiscating it. Want to bet that some of these weapons end up in personal collections by the military and LEO doing the confiscating (looting).
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:47:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Yep, what he said. I'm very disturbed with what's going on in NO. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:49:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Nazi guards at Concentration Camps were also "following orders". So this makes them innocent? Human's brain is supposed to be rational and, therefore, rationalize.  It seems to me, in my humble opinion, that the "orders" were not clear ("authorities" in NO are clearly incompetent) and the "law enforcement" there is interpreting them their own way and at their own interest. That is, corrupt ones seeking personal profit out of others misery will "confiscate" guns and anything else they can take for themselves. It's the "legal" looting replacing the previous illegal one. Of course the anti-gun "media" is showing what interests it and what conveys its biased agenda. Very likely there are LEOs treating NO's victims decently (like humans) and also respecting the (actual) laws. Bottom line is that New Orleans shows humanity still lives at the verge of barbarism as clearly demontrated by this tragic incident. All "social behavior" crumbles so easily that is scares me to my bones. Too sad indeed... |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 9:58:58 PM EDT
[#22]
The way i heared it was they were just taking the guns then leaving the people to fend for themselves, not evacuating them. Law aside, disarming someone without providing for their protection is immoral. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 10:01:18 PM EDT
[#23]
doorgunner
I didnt lump "you all" in one basket. WE here on the forum are Allies, especially on this topic were all in agreement. I am just aghast by the compliance of the LEOs to confiscate legally owned firearms. And no, the press won't cover those LEOs whom refuse the orders, understood well, I was in the "Press" and broadcasting business. The lecture is most unnecessary... SgtWhiting, the topic Author, understands my opinions, flame away..... myit |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 10:06:31 PM EDT
[#24]
By the way, I just saw the CNN Video of the old women with the old Colt .38 revolver.
They man handled her in her own kitchen, took her gun, put her on a truck without letting her get some things. That is just crap. |
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Posted: 9/8/2005 10:08:09 PM EDT
[#25]
She was probably shooting at a helicopter before they took her down...
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Posted: 9/8/2005 10:10:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Damn straight, if that was my mother, and you came into her house, man handled her, took her gun and put her on a truck like I saw on the video, I would hunt those officers down and......................Coc Violation...................tell them just how disappointed I am. 
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Posted: 9/8/2005 10:12:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Are you advocating the "oops i though you were a looter" solution?  Anyway, this needs to go to the supreme court so they can finally put an official end to property rights |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 2:27:37 AM EDT
[#28]
Doorgunner! You are standing tall, guys like you and a few others here are a credit to your profession. I would cover your back anytime.. |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 2:46:54 AM EDT
[#29]
Thanks to Arfcom, I am always just one URL away from all the tin foil hats I'll ever want to see.
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Posted: 9/9/2005 2:48:25 AM EDT
[#30]
Assaultweb? 
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Posted: 9/9/2005 3:28:05 AM EDT
[#31]
I am retired after more than 30 years and I can say that this is most definitely NOT our finest hour!
There is NO legal protection for an officer OR a soldier who follows an unlawful order, and the confiscation of legally owned firearms as being done now IS unlawful. I would simply refuse to comply with the order if I had been given one. If I were on the other side of the fence...well, those who would blindly follow unlawful orders might get a bit more than they bargained for. "When the enemy comes it will be the old tigers who stand first at the gates." |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 4:20:42 AM EDT
[#32]
There's a comedian  everywhere I turn this morning!
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Posted: 9/9/2005 5:08:40 AM EDT
[#33]
As a soldier, I have come a long way, and have a choice to serve until 2037...... 45 years service by then. I will walk away from all of it the day I am asked to do anything like this.
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Posted: 9/9/2005 6:38:38 AM EDT
[#34]
Same here. I will quit my job first. |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 7:49:22 AM EDT
[#35]
Doorgunner! You are standing tall, guys like you and a few others here are a credit to your proffession. I would cover your back anytime.. Gene, you can cover my six anytime, anywhere brother! |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 7:59:45 AM EDT
[#36]
Thanks for this thread. I am sick with watching this all go down and it's good to see most of the law enforcement on this site condemning it. I even have a hard time with getting my wife to see that the Constitution trumps all others; she still slides back to the 'special circumstances' and 'martial law' BS that is used for an excuse for those in power to ride roughshod over everything that made this country great.
We need a lot more people in the law enforcement community and military like you. |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 8:09:11 AM EDT
[#37]
+1 It seems that in a presidential election there are ways to get quick action from the U.S. Supreme Court, maybe its about time our same Congressmen and Senators started doing the same bantering in the name of civil rights protections for decent law abiding citizns in NOLA ! |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 9:26:36 AM EDT
[#38]
And if you look real close, I believe those are California LEO's in that video. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I swear that is what it looked like to me). |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 9:29:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Reading some of these replies makes me glad to see that I am not alone. I have been in LE for 10 years, and this makes me sick. I can't believe that people sworn to uphold the Constitution would spit on it like this.
Looks like those like-minded of us here may be in the minority, though. Scary. |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 9:45:04 AM EDT
[#40]
Well thats it. I'm not going to "help" now. I'm a LEO and would not be a part of what is going on down there. I just hope my buddy is not a part of this. He is there now and a member of a SWAT team. The video clip I saw was CA LEOs.
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Posted: 9/9/2005 11:16:19 AM EDT
[#41]
God Bless those of you standing up and saying this is wrong. Every one of you. It's responses like this that I don't see over in GD that really keep my faith that there's hope for our future. For every one of you that say they'd walk away from a lifetime of public service rather than enforce such a decree, words simply don't describe how honored I am to have such as you as servants of the public. And as keepers of the peace.
Sadly, the Katrina horror has allowed the media to show the worst of humanity and only rarely the best. The world will remember the officers that abandoned their posts and looted their city long after the heroics of the majority are forgotten. |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 1:47:38 PM EDT
[#42]
I will not disarm law abiding citizens.
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Posted: 9/9/2005 2:18:16 PM EDT
[#43]
What he said. Period !
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Posted: 9/9/2005 5:45:47 PM EDT
[#44]
Thanks Brian and a big Ditto to you. |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 9:53:16 PM EDT
[#45]
This comment got me to thinking, and boy, that is just dangerous at my age ! Lets say for the sake of the argument those are Cali cops. I realize in a "State of Emergency" situation the mayor and Governor get some latitude. However, under what authority do the Cali Cops get to make arrests ? Carry weapons ? They would have had to been sworn in, if so, by whom ? Certainly not the Mayor ! He is a political nobody. The Governor ? Probably, but she was too busy denying the Feds access. Attorney General of Louisiana ? Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. But he is in Baton Rouge. Did he or did he not. That is the question. Still does not change anything, they violated the law. Plain and simple. |
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Posted: 9/9/2005 9:54:13 PM EDT
[#46]
+1 I got your back Norcal.
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Posted: 9/9/2005 10:18:46 PM EDT
[#47]
My chief already knows I would never confiscate inoccent Americans guns. I have been a cop for three years and I support the constitution of the United States. we the people have the right to keep and bear arms. I was a citizen before I became a cop and my views will never change. The day I am told to start taking weapons I will turn my badge in and walk away and never look back. this is just my .02 cents.
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Posted: 9/9/2005 11:10:42 PM EDT
[#48]
SgtWhiting, I'm assuming that there is some type of provision in federal statutes (hell, probably the damned Patriot Act) that covers them under some type of mutual aid. I do know that in some of the information we had gotten prior to the NOLA disaster, somewhere tucked in the requirements for NIMS training, that FEMA was either requiring or requesting to know what type of mutual aid agreements agencies had. Matter of fact, I remember having to go over some lengthy survey with my chief and there was a specific section for information about mutual aid agreements.
Another thing to remember, is the massive liability that not only NOPD but the DOJ is assuming if there are excessive force issues by outside agencies working within LA jurisdiction. Remember the WTO in Seattle? The deputies that OC'd the ladies in the car, and fired a beanbag round into the torso of the guy on the sidewalk from about 6 inches? Then kicked the guy in the groin? At one of my Armor Holdings LL Instructor Recert classes said that the deputy that did that was working under mutual aid and was there from another county, and NOT a King's County Deputy Sheriff. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 1:18:20 AM EDT
[#49]
From what I gather, you LEO's who oppose this sort of behavior are the minority...sad. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 2:04:45 AM EDT
[#50]
I have NO information to base this on, but I will suggest that perhaps they have been deputized temporarily as Federal LEOs, probably USMS. I hear that this is the procedure when state cops work with feds on interstate task forces and such, and thought I might suggest it.
Or perhaps they figured they didn't have time to sort out the legal facts of the issue, and just went to work |
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