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Posted: 12/29/2005 9:15:54 AM EDT
I have been reading about how so many of you are against GWB spying on terrorists, how you slam him everychance you get, and all the while claiming to support the troops.

Yet, you don't want the USA to spy on terrorist, many of you actually think this war is about oil, and a few actually think GWB planned the whole 9-11!?!?!?!

Seriously..what's the matter with you people?

And don't give me this BS about you being a Pro-American-loving-Libertarian, because you are not. You just want what you want and don't give a shit about winning this war.

Yeah, those that trade security for freedom deserve neither. But that phrase means NOTHING when you are a dead man.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:16:28 AM EDT
its because the constant lefty trolling is working
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:16:42 AM EDT
Its the internet. Its not real.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:18:10 AM EDT




Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:18:53 AM EDT
well, I appreciate the warm welcome.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:18:54 AM EDT
December 2005.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:21:31 AM EDT
You people always this friendly towards new members?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:22:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
You people always this friendly towards new members?


Bah. We're taking it easy on you.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:22:52 AM EDT
YEP!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:23:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
You people always this friendly towards new members?


Bah. We're taking it easy on you.




yeah, you missed that thread
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:24:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
You people always this friendly towards new members?


Bah. We're taking it easy on you.




Concur.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:26:48 AM EDT
Ummm....what is the Air America station in Nevada again?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:29:33 AM EDT
The hive will not be pleased!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:30:04 AM EDT


Mike
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:30:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
December 2005.



+1
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:30:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
You people always this friendly towards new members?




WELCOME to the madness!

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:32:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
I have been reading about how so many of you are against GWB spying on terrorists, how you slam him everychance you get, and all the while claiming to support the troops.

Yet, you don't want the USA to spy on terrorist, many of you actually think this war is about oil, and a few actually think GWB planned the whole 9-11!?!?!?!

Seriously..what's the matter with you people?

And don't give me this BS about you being a Pro-American-loving-Libertarian, because you are not. You just want what you want and don't give a shit about winning this war.

Yeah, those that trade security for freedom deserve neither. But that phrase means NOTHING when you are a dead man.



Whoa, whoa, whoa! We don't care about winning this war? I care. As a matter of fact, I'll say that in order to "WIN" this war, we need to kill more Arabs - millions more. They only understand fear and death. I think it will take many generations before they are capable of handling freedom. That, in my opinion, is what needs to be done in the Middle East. At home, we need to SECURE our borders, and PROFILE Arabs and Arab sympathizers. We need to kick people out who are not here legally, and monitor those who are. Then, and only then, will the spying issue be an easier pill to swallow. But guess what, if we are successful in our campaign in the Middle East, and successful in securing our Homeland, there will be no need to spy. Go figure.

Blake
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:33:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
You people always this friendly towards new members?



Notice that you're still here. If this were DU, you'd already be gone and all traces of your posts erased.



Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:35:17 AM EDT
with an inflammatory post such as that, do you expect everyone to be welcoming you with flowers and gifts?

i love my country but i mistrust and fear my government.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:36:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
I have been reading about how so many of you are against GWB spying on terrorists, how you slam him everychance you get, and all the while claiming to support the troops.



Being conservative and thinking Bush is an ass aren't mutually exclusive. Bush isn't conservative unless you are grading on a curve and comparing him to Kerry.

What do you think is "conservative" about George Bush? He's more liberal than FDR...


Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:39:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
I have been reading about how so many of you are against GWB spying on terrorists, how you slam him everychance you get, and all the while claiming to support the troops.

Yet, you don't want the USA to spy on terrorist, many of you actually think this war is about oil, and a few actually think GWB planned the whole 9-11!?!?!?!

Seriously..what's the matter with you people?

And don't give me this BS about you being a Pro-American-loving-Libertarian, because you are not. You just want what you want and don't give a shit about winning this war.

Yeah, those that trade security for freedom deserve neither. But that phrase means NOTHING when you are a dead man.



I haven't been a MEMBER very long so I do not feel qualified to say much about your opinion, but who are you again?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:50:16 AM EDT
It's not about Bush spying on terrorists. I don't care what Bush does with terrorists. Do you see me complaining about Jose Padillia? Do you see me complaining about Guantanamo Bay? do you see me complaining about Abu Ghraib? Do you see me complaining about the "secret CIA prisons" around the globe?

But the precedent is dangerous. I view what is going on now in light of the Clinton Administration. Clinton believed that "domestic terrorists" (like christians, pro-lifers and gun owners) were the greatest threat to national security and he acted accordingly. Clinton killed dozens of Americans that he thought were enemies of the state and alot of Demonrats still believe that Americans are the greatest threat to America. I don't want a Demonrat to ever have the legitimacy of the Patriot Act because they will certainly turn it on us!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:57:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bubblehead597:
who are you again?




Uhhhhmmmm... yeeeeeaaaahhhhh...

Who are YOU?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:05:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Do you see me complaining about Jose Padillia?



Actually, terrorist or not, the handling of the Padilla case was pretty atrocious. I don't see how you can arrest an American citizen on US soil and hold him in a Navy brig without a lawyer based on secret evidence for 3 years. There's simply no way to justify that without utterly shitting on the constitution.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:07:22 AM EDT
DUh!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:10:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:11:52 AM EDT
pliftkl wrote:

Bush isn't conservative unless you are grading on a curve

That's a great way to put it.z
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:12:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:13:19 AM EDT
well, in the unlikely chance you're NOT a troll from the DUngheap:


Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
I have been reading about how so many of you are against GWB spying on terrorists,

we're kinda split of the patriot act, some of us see it as a necessary evil, some see it as a violation of our privacy and constitutional rights. allof us see it as something that carefully needs to be monitored and shouldn't be made PERMANENT!

how you slam him everychance you get,

we voted for him and he has almost universally disappointed everyone. we can't criticise our elected politicians???

and all the while claiming to support the troops.

there ain't a swinging dick here who doesn't support them, many of them send stuff to them regularly, some of us ARE them! totally off base on this one...

Yet, you don't want the USA to spy on terrorist, many of you actually think this war is about oil, and a few actually think GWB planned the whole 9-11!?!?!?!

only the idiots and truly ignorant think this is about oil or that bush planned 9/11.

Seriously..what's the matter with you people?

And don't give me this BS about you being a Pro-American-loving-Libertarian, because you are not. You just want what you want and don't give a shit about winning this war.

Yeah, those that trade security for freedom deserve neither. But that phrase means NOTHING when you are a dead man.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:21:06 AM EDT
ConserVatives?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:35:44 AM EDT
I will tell you firstly that I am not a conservative and never claimed to be. I love my guns, which is why I am here. But, I am nowhere near a liberal.

Spy on terrorists? I guess you haven't heard that the patriot act has been used more and more for non-terror related arrests.

I will always support our troops, regardless of how I feel about a war (even though, I DO support this war).

I think the people that say 9-11 is Bush's fault are kidding.

you are right, security and freedom mean nothing when you are dead. But right now, I am alive and would like to live out the rest of my life free, not under the watchful eye of the feds.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:37:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
You people always this friendly towards new members?


Bah. We're taking it easy on you.






Amen!





Welcome, DarkHalf! BTW, I agree with your opening post!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:40:23 AM EDT
Well, I didn't mean to imply everyone was not a conservative.

But i sure am surprised at how many of you here slam Bush, support the terrorist muslims in country, and actually think this war is useless.

If you support the troops that is great. But if you say you do while claiming Bush is mis-using the Patriot Act on Americans (which he is not) then you are two-faced and a liar.

Quite frankly, i think alot of people are fair wheather conservatives.


Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:41:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
You people always this friendly towards new members?


Bah. We're taking it easy on you.

hr


Half!



thanks, and I guess i was just a little surprised at the opening remarks of some.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:42:24 AM EDT
Darkhalf,

You are a

In your short amount of time here, you have posted in GD and religion forums and only once in the handgun forum.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:42:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
well, I appreciate the warm welcome.




After athread like this you expect a warm welcome?!

Geez, man. Nice knowing you. I assume you'll leave now. Bye bye.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:45:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 89grand:
www.chapelhill.indymedia.org/uploads/democratic_underground.jpg





That's awesome!

Who's the brilliant artist?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:51:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
Well, I didn't mean to imply everyone was not a conservative.

But i sure am surprised at how many of you here slam Bush, support the terrorist muslims in country, and actually think this war is useless.
If you support the troops that is great. But if you say you do while claiming Bush is mis-using the Patriot Act on Americans (which he is not) then you are two-faced and a liar.

Quite frankly, i think alot of people are fair wheather conservatives.



I never saw those posts and sure would like to. Name them! I dont ever recall seeing people supporting terrorist muslims. I may be wrong.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:54:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:



I never saw those posts and sure would like to. Name them! I dont ever recall seeing people supporting terrorist muslims. I may be wrong.


http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=422415

There ya go.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:54:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MST2:
Darkhalf,

You are a hort


where are the majority of YOUR posts?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:59:10 AM EDT
Boy you're staring off well.

Tell me, do you shit where you eat as well.

I bet you have a lot of friends there at Asshat Junior High School.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:03:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:

Originally Posted By DrFrige:



I never saw those posts and sure would like to. Name them! I dont ever recall seeing people supporting terrorist muslims. I may be wrong.


http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=422415

There ya go.



I still don't see anyone supporting terrorist muslims. Can you quote someones who says "I support terrorists" or anything on those lines. Since you see so many, I'm sure you can give me a hand here.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 11:52:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MST2:
Darkhalf,

You are a

In your short amount of time here, you have posted in GD and religion forums and only once in the handgun forum.




What he said...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:05:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:06:03 PM EDT by California_Kid]
I give the newbie 5 trolls out of a possible 10:

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:07:41 PM EDT
According to history this is'nt a war we are going to win any time soon or maybe never... Im talking on a broad spectrum. This isnt just about Iraq, or Israel. its about the entire world ....
Belowe is worth a read, I read it and saved it a while ago... This country and ALL of its people need to wake up. I voted for Bush and support his actions over seas, BUT i do not support his actions here at home when it comes to the boarder, immigration, and takeing away americans rights to do his so called spying on terroists in the USA. close the F---ing boarder and there would be less Terrorists in the US.



THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS AND THE GREAT CALIPHATE
by Larry Abraham, January 29, 2004


Watching and listening to the Democrat Party candidates is
tantamount to enduring the Chinese water torture.
The blah, blah, blah goes on and on and nothing of value comes
out except the pain of listening to the same nothingness
over and over again. I won't take the time or space
to repeat what you have heard so many mind numbing times
but what you have not heard is crucial.

President Bush and his administration spokesmen are not telling the
American people what they really need to know about this "war."

The war against terror did not begin on September 11, 2001, nor will
it end with the peaceful transition to civilian authority in Iraq,
whenever that may be. In fact, Iraq is but a footnote in the bigger
context of this encounter, but an important one none the less.

This war is what the Jihadists themselves are calling the "Third
Great Jihad." They are operating within the framework of a time line
which reaches back to the very creation of Islam in the seventh century
and are presently attempting to recreate the dynamics which gave
rise to the religion in the first two hundred years of its existence.


No religion in history grew as fast, in its infancy, and the reasons
for the initial growth of Islam are not hard to explain when you
understand what the world was like at the time of Muhammad's
death in 632 AD. Remember that the Western Roman Empire was
in ruins and the Eastern Empire, based in Constantinople,
was trying desperately to keep the power of its early grandeur
while transitioning to Christianity as a de facto state religion.
The costs to the average person were large as he was
being required to meet the constantly rising taxes levied by the
state along with the tithes coerced by the Church.

What Islam offered was the "carrot or the sword". If you became a
convert, your taxes were immediately eliminated, as was your tithe.
If you didn't, you faced death. The choice was not hard for most to
make, unless you were a very devoted martyr in the making. At the
beginning, even the theology was not too hard for most to swallow,
considering that both Jewry and Christianity were given their due
by the Prophet.

There is but one God-Allah, and Muhammad is His Prophet,
as was Jesus, and the pre-Christian Jewish prophets of the Torah
(Old Testament). Both were called "children of the book"--
the book being the Koran, which replaced both the Old and New
Testaments for former Christians and Jews.

With this practical approach to spreading the "word" Islam grew like
wild-fire, reaching out from the Saudi Arabian Peninsula in! a ll
directions. This early growth is what the Muslims call the "First"
great Jihad and it met with little resistance until Charles Martel of
France, the father of Charlemagne, stopped them in the battle of Tours
in France after they had firmly established Islam on the Iberian Peninsula.

This first onslaught against the West continued in various forms and at
various times until Islam was finally driven out of Spain in 1492 at
the battle of Granada.


The "Second great jihad" came with the Ottoman Turks. This empire
succeeded in bringing about the downfall of Constantinople as a
Christian stronghold and an end to Roman hegemony in all of its forms.
The Ottoman Empire was Islam's most successful expansion of territory
even though the religion itself had fractured into warring sects and bitter
rivalries with each claiming the ultimate truths in "the ways of the Prophet".

By 1683 the Ottomans had suffered a series of defeats on both land and
sea and the final, unsuccessful attempt to capture Vienna set the stage
for the collapse of any further territorial ambitions and Islam shrunk
into various sheikhdoms, emir dominated principalities, and roving
tribes of nomads. However, by this time a growing anti-western sentiment,
blaming its internal failures on anyone but themselves, was taking hold
and setting the stage for a new revival known as Wahhabism, a sect which
came into full bloom under the House of Saud on the Arabian Peninsula
shortly before the onset of WWI. It is this Wahhabi version of Islam
which has infected the religion itself, now finding adherents in almost all
branches and sects, especially the Shiites.

Wahhabiism calls for the complete and total rejection or destruction
of anything and everything which is not based in the original teachings
of The Prophet and finds its most glaring practice in the policies of
the Afghani Taliban or the Shiite practices of the late Ayatollah
Khomeini in Iran. Its Ali Pasha (Field Marshall) is now known as
Osama bin Laden, the leader of the "Third Jihad", who is Wahhabi
as were his 9/11 attack teams, 18 of which were also Saudi.


The strategy for this "holy war" did not begin with the planning of
the destruction of the World Trade Center. It began with the toppling of
the Shah of Iran back in the late 1970's.
With his plans and programs to
"westernize" his country, along with his close ties to the U.S. and
subdued acceptance of the State of Israel, the Shah was the soft target.

Remember "America Held Hostage"?

Thanks, in large part to the hypocritical and disastrous policies of
the Jimmy Carter State Department, the revolution was set into
motion, the Shah was deposed, his armed forces scattered or murdered
and stage one was complete. The Third Jihad now had a base of
operations and the oil wealth to support its grand design or what
they call the "Great Caliphate".

What this design calls for is the replacement of all secular
leadership in any country with Muslim majorities. This would include,
Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia, all the Emirates, Sudan, Tunisia,
Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Malaysia,
Indonesia and finally what they call the "occupied territory" Israel.

As a part of this strategy, forces of the jihad will infiltrate
governments and the military as a prelude to taking control, once
the secular leadership is ousted or assassinated. Such was the case in
Lebanon leading to the Syrian occupation and in Egypt with the
murder of Anwar Sadat, along with the multiple attempts on the lives of
Hussein in Jordan, Mubarak of Egypt and Musharraf in Pakistan.
Pakistan is a particular prize because of its nuclear weapons.
(Please note al Qaeda call for the Islamic-militant overthrow of
Musharraf in Pakistan on March 25.

The long-range strategy of the Third Jihad counts on three strategic
goals. First, the U.S. withdrawing from the region just as it did in
Southeast Asia, following Vietnam. Second, taking control of the oil
wealth in the Muslim countries, which would be upwards to 75% of
known reserves; third, using nuclear weapons or other WMDs to annihilate
Israel. A further outcome of successfully achieving these objectives
would be to place the United Nations as the! sole ar biter in East/West
negotiations and paralyze western resistance, leading to total withdrawal
from all Islamic dominated countries

Evidence of the Bush Administration awareness of this plan is found
in the events immediately following the 9/11 attack. The
administration's first move was to shore up Pakistan and Egypt,
believing that these two would be the next targets for al Qaeda,
while Americans focused on the disaster in New York.
The administration also knew that the most important objective
was to send a loud and clear message that the U.S. was in the
region to stay, not only to shore up our allies but to send a message
to the Jihadists.

The attack on Afghanistan was necessary to break-up a secure al
Qaeda base of operations and put their leadership on the run or in
prison. The war in Iraq also met a very strategic necessity in that no one
knew how much collaboration existed between Saddam Hussein
and the master planners of the Third Jihad or Hussein's willingness
to hand off WMDs to terrorist groups including the PLO in Israel.
What was known were serious indications of on-going collaboration
as Saddam funneled money to families of suicide bombers attacking
the Israelis and others in Kuwait.

What the U.S. needed to establish was a significant base of operations
smack dab in the middle of the Islamic world, in a location which effectively
cut it in half. Iraq was the ideal target for this and a host of other strategic reasons.

Leadership of various anti-American groups both here and abroad
understood the vital nature of the Bush initiative and thus launched
their demonstrations, world-wide, to "Stop The War". Failing this,
they also laid plans to build a political campaign inside the country,
with the War in Iraq as a plebiscite, using a little known politician
as the thrust point--Howard Dean. This helps to explain how quickly the
Radical Left moved into the Dean campaign with both people and money,
creating what the clueless media called the "Dean Phenomenon".

By building on the left-wing base in the Democrat party and the "Hate
Bush" crowd, the campaign has already resulted in a consensus among
the aspirants, minus Joe Lieberman, to withdraw the U.S. from Iraq and
turn the operation over to the U.N. And, if past is prologue, i.e.,
Vietnam, once the U.S. leaves it will not go back under any circumstances,
possibly even the destruction of Israel.

Should George W. Bush be defeated in November we could expect to
see the dominoes start to fall in the secular Islamic countries and The
Clash of Civilizations, predicted several years ago by Samuel Huntington,
would then become a life changing event in all of our lives.

What surprised the Jihadists following the 9/11 attack was how
American sentiment mobilized around the president and a profoun! d
sense of patriotism spread across the country. They were not expecting
this reaction, based on what had happened in the past, nor were they
expecting the determined resolve of the President himself. I also
believe this is one of the reasons we have not had any further attacks
within our borders. They are content to wait, just as one of their tactical
mentors; V.I. Lenin admonished..."two steps forward, one step back".

A couple additional events serve as valuable footnotes to the current
circumstances we face: the destruction of the human assets factor of the
CIA during the Carter presidency, presided over by the late Senator
Frank Church. This fact has plagued our intelligence agencies right up
to this very day with consequences which are now obvious. And, Jimmy Carter
himself, the one man who must bear the bulk of the responsibility for
setting the stage of the Third Jihad. Americans should find little
comfort in how the Democrat contenders constantly seek the "advice
and counsel" of this despicable little hypocrite.

Lastly, we should not expect to see any meaningful cooperation from
Western Europe, especially the French. Since failing to protect
their own interests in Algeria (by turning the country over to the first
of the Arab terrorists, Ammad Ben Bella), the country itself is now
occupied by Islamic immigrants totaling twenty percent of the population.

We are in the battle of our lives, a battle which will go on for many years
possibly even generations. If we fail to understand what we are facing or
falter in the challenge of "knowing our enemy" the results will be catastrophic.
Imagine a world where al Qaeda regimes control 75% of the world's oil,
have at their disposal nuclear weapons, legions of willing suicide soldiers,
and our national survival is dependent on the good graces of Kofi Annan
and the United Nations.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:08:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Do you see me complaining about Jose Padillia?



Actually, terrorist or not, the handling of the Padilla case was pretty atrocious. I don't see how you can arrest an American citizen on US soil and hold him in a Navy brig without a lawyer based on secret evidence for 3 years. There's simply no way to justify that without utterly shitting on the constitution.



Nobody could have said that better.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:10:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DarkHalf:
Well, I didn't mean to imply everyone was not a conservative.

But i sure am surprised at how many of you here slam Bush, support the terrorist muslims in country, and actually think this war is useless.

If you support the troops that is great. But if you say you do while claiming Bush is mis-using the Patriot Act on Americans (which he is not) then you are two-faced and a liar.

Quite frankly, i think alot of people are fair wheather conservatives.





Who supports what now?
Muslim terrorists?
Or Achmed Sixpack who works his 7-11 franchise and bothers no one?

I support the latter..to hell with the former.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:13:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pliftkl:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Do you see me complaining about Jose Padillia?



Actually, terrorist or not, the handling of the Padilla case was pretty atrocious. I don't see how you can arrest an American citizen on US soil and hold him in a Navy brig without a lawyer based on secret evidence for 3 years. There's simply no way to justify that without utterly shitting on the constitution.



Actually, he traveled to Afghanistan to receive training from a terrorist organization (that is a sworn enemy of the United States) for the purpose of waging war against the United States. As I understand it, this is a violation of federal law which invalidates your citizenship and this is even printed on your passport.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:15:20 PM EDT
Clean_Cut?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:48:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:53:43 PM EDT by K2QB3]
"Conservatism" or more precisely the coalition that makes up the republican party is made up of a wide variety of political philosophies.

We have anarcho-capitalists, austrian capitalists, paleo conservatives, paleo libertarians, conservatives, libertarians, neoconservatives, Christian fundamentalists of various stripes, left-libertarians, and an all too large number of fascists, collectivists, keynsians, socialists, and authoritarian social conservatives, and I'm sure there are many more I missed.

Very few individuals are really happy with everything the GOP does, particularly this administration. There is a great deal of effort made to push the population squarely into one camp or the other, but those that find themselves in full agreement with one party or the other on the thousands of issues that make up an individuals political philosophy must make a leap of faith to get there. Reason just doesn't do it. Many of us refuse to surrender our reason to political cheerleaders, preferring to think for ourselves.

It is the duty of the citizen of a democratic republic to voice his opposition, to question our elected leaders, and to always remain vigilent. Many of us here swore an oath to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign AND domestic.

On the wiretapping issue the question isn't whether it's OK to tap a terrorists phone, we all agree that's fine.

The question is why, when FISA gives 72 hours after the tap is initiated to obtain the warrant, were warrants not obtained? It could have just been a mistake, but the president has said it wasn't, he intentionally initiated warrantless taps.

Nobody knows for sure what those taps were for. There's been no judicial oversight whatsoever and the targets and content of the taps are classified. Anybody who says they know for sure what's going on is full of shiite. Maybe you trust the CIC, but what about the next one? I trust no man with my liberty. This sets a dangerous precedent, as have many of the policies of this administration.

So why do it? Why was it necessary to bypass all judicial review by the FISA court, the most government friendly court imaginable? Why risk the obvious political shitstorm and push the limits of constitutionality like this if everthing is on the up and up?

It was either a crime or just incredibly stupid, probably both.

Oh, and welcome to arfcom.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:54:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 12:59:43 PM EDT by Stealth]

Originally Posted By xinflt:
Clean_Cut?



He sure knows how to press the rights buttons like Clean_Cut.
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