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Posted: 2/7/2006 9:38:06 AM EDT
"It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them"

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 9:42:28 AM EDT
Ayoob's articles are good. Most of what he writes deals specifically with real-world encounters that are well-researched; not to mention a fair amount of legal advice is often included.

that being said, the magazines he writes for suck...nothing but puff pieces, and mindless drivel.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:04:53 AM EDT
Captain Obvious.

I will never understand the cult like following he has. It reminds me of the stepford Oprah followers.

He has spent his entire career self promoting, bragging, convincing himself & others he has something worth listening to, and modifying the concepts of others... then trying to name it after himself.

Just another hack gun magazine writer with delusions of grandeur. The good part for him is that he has made a very successful career of it. I just don’t understand the “Mas groupies”. He has not said or done anything so great that has not been said or done by any other career gun writer. I have met him... and collectively evaluating my observations and the observations of a number of professional instructors, I feel dead on about not liking him. I never cared much for anyone who has an unrealistic high opinion of themself.

Not to center on just Mas... let me strike out at another Gun god. Jeff Cooper. I like Jeff Cooper, I regret I have not met him. Once again I do not understand the near worship of the man by the 1911 crowd. I believe that if you look back at Cooper’s writings... he has nearly said the exact thing that Mas was quoted in the first post. Mas probably read it to... reworded it... and arranged for it to be posted on arfcom.

Having said all this.

The statement in the first post is very true.

It in some way has been proclaimed by every defensive gun writer since Skeeter Skelton. The observation is obvious no matter who of them it has been quoted from.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:10:20 AM EDT
Ayoob isn't well liked in the tactical community.

There are reasons why.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:12:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Ayoob isn't well liked in the tactical community.

There are reasons why.



Seriously?

huh. Well, I'm in Delta Farce and I've never heard that.

FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:14:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DasRonin:
Captain Obvious.

I will never understand the cult like following he has. It reminds me of the stepford Oprah followers.

He has spent his entire career self promoting, bragging, convincing himself & others he has something worth listening to, and modifying the concepts of others... then trying to name it after himself.

Just another hack gun magazine writer with delusions of grandeur. The good part for him is that he has made a very successful career of it. I just don’t understand the “Mas groupies”. He has not said or done anything so great that has not been said or done by any other career gun writer. I have met him... and collectively evaluating my observations and the observations of a number of professional instructors, I feel dead on about not liking him. I never cared much for anyone who has an unrealistic high opinion of themself.

Not to center on just Mas... let me strike out at another Gun god. Jeff Cooper. I like Jeff Cooper, I regret I have not met him. Once again I do not understand the near worship of the man by the 1911 crowd. I believe that if you look back at Cooper’s writings... he has nearly said the exact thing that Mas was quoted in the first post. Mas probably read it to... reworded it... and arranged for it to be posted on arfcom.

Having said all this.

The statement in the first post is very true.

It in some way has been proclaimed by every defensive gun writer since Skeeter Skelton. The observation is obvious no matter who of them it has been quoted from.



I'm with you. I've trained with enough people to take his stuff with a grain of salt.

This statement is true, I'll agree...But it's on par with ;

"A nail won't be driven in by a hammer. It takes a person to swing the hammer to do it."

One article he wrote was on useing a 20 gauge with birdshot as the uber HD weapon

It was really hard for me to take about anything he had to say seriously after that....The above statement excluded, of course.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:15:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 10:16:31 AM EDT by SC_00_05]

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Ayoob isn't well liked in the tactical community.

There are reasons why.



Seriously?

huh. Well, I'm in Delta Farce and I've never heard that.

FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.


My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:17:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Ayoob isn't well liked in the tactical community.

There are reasons why.



Seriously?

huh. Well, I'm in Delta Farce and I've never heard that.

FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.



I know at least one officer who was misquoted by Ayoob in one of those Glock magazine things. An anchorage officer who allowed Ayoob to ride along. Not only was Ayoob half in the bag the whole time, but he made stuff up to the point that the officer's department wrote the publishers and insisted that they stop identifying their department and the officer in question.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:17:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 10:18:53 AM EDT by 89grand]

Originally Posted By CRC:
"It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them"




I'm mean...yeah that makes sense and everything, but....I think most of us already knew that.

That's really not that profound. It's kind of like me saying "Hey guys, you know what? Guns rule!"
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:17:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:34:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 10:34:36 AM EDT by txgp17]
I getting sick and fucking tired of Ayoob plagiarizing me.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:39:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Ayoob isn't well liked in the tactical community.

There are reasons why.



Seriously?

huh. Well, I'm in Delta Farce and I've never heard that.

FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.



Ayoob taught gangster style shooting, you can't take him seriously after that
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:42:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MuRDoC:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Ayoob isn't well liked in the tactical community.

There are reasons why.



Seriously?

huh. Well, I'm in Delta Farce and I've never heard that.

FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.



Ayoob taught gangster style shooting, you can't take him seriously after that



I hope you're not referring to Stressfire... Those are good beginner techniques. I can't see him abandoning Stressfire for turn-it-sideways,-homie shooting.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:43:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

I know at least one officer who was misquoted by Ayoob in one of those Glock magazine things. An anchorage officer who allowed Ayoob to ride along. Not only was Ayoob half in the bag the whole time, but he made stuff up to the point that the officer's department wrote the publishers and insisted that they stop identifying their department and the officer in question.




Gotcha. Noted, thanks.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:44:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.



???

...

!!!

wow. I haven't seen that - at all, anywhere - but if true, wow.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:50:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:51:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:51:56 AM EDT
Ayoob is entertaining. I think as he aged he turned more towards just the entertaining. Cooper is really annoying and stuck up in his writings. I have owned and own 1911's and love them but i don't go around constantly talking about them wen discussing guns. He's one of those older guys who thinks nothing thats come out since 1955 is worth shit. Thats just boring and not worth ink on paperin my opinion and if someone likes to read it they need to open their mind up a bit more to different weapons and tactics. I would like to take this time to reiterate that David Fortier is by and far the worst and most annoying gun writer alive.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 10:55:58 AM EDT
I kind of admire the reputation and following he's built, given his background. For a reserve deputy in a small New Hampshire town, he didn't exactly have any Jim Cirillo (New York City Detective/Stake Out Unit) experiences to regale us with, but damn, look at how many of us know who Ayoob is!

[Larry the Cable Guy]Git 'er done, Mas![/Larry the Cable Guy]
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:07:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:
Ayoob's articles are good. Most of what he writes deals specifically with real-world encounters that are well-researched...


What? You're shittin' me right? Ever read his account of the Miami shootout vs what actually occurred? Anything he didn't have direct involvement in is questionable, at best.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:09:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:10:58 AM EDT by joker581]
Ayoob puts out some good info, but sometimes he just annoys the shit out of me. A prime example of this is the Rosen ARG holster. Ayoob designed it, and it used to be named after him. Then Rosen changed the name, almost five years ago. Ayoob just can't seem to let it go. I got a magazine the other day with at least two references in to seperate articles to the Rosen Ayoob holster.

I also have to question whether he has all the LE experience he claims. It seems to me that with all of the writing, competitions, and training classes, he would, at best, be able to work part time. I don't doubt that he has seen and done some things, but some of his writing would lead you to believe that he was the next Jim Cirillo.

I still don't know what Fortier brings to the table when he is writing. And I don't even want to get started on the pictures in his articles.

Actually, I do. What the fuck is up with having someone take pictures of you in different outfits to match the guns you are reviewing? It is just fucking gay. The fact that he has a wife, much less a wife who would take those pictures, is amazing.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:13:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By rob78:
Ayoob's articles are good. Most of what he writes deals specifically with real-world encounters that are well-researched...

What? You're shittin' me right? Ever read his account of the Miami shootout vs what actually occurred? Anything he didn't have direct involvement in is questionable, at best.

There are no facts, only interpretations.
-Friedrich Nietzsche, 1887
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:20:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:24:41 AM EDT by SC_00_05]

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.



???

...

!!!

wow. I haven't seen that - at all, anywhere - but if true, wow.


Not quite as negative as I remember but bad enough. The constant bashing of the 5.56 gets old too.



www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/cooper/0509/
It is interesting to learn that the new importer of Steyr equipment is now offering a single-shot sporting rifle in caliber .50 BMG. It is hard to come up with a purpose for such a piece, but as with so many grown men’s toys, the purpose of the instrument is simply to have something that nobody else has. The .50 BMG cartridge is an item of strikingly limited utility, but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things are for. If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it.

Those of us who have used the .50 BMG in the field usually have great affection for it, though under circumstances we would prefer not to see repeated. I guess we should not get too serious about such things, but I once saw a defunct Japanese Zero that had been shot out of the air by one round of .50 BMG. Oddly enough, it was almost unhurt, except for a half-inch hole through its vitals.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:24:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:26:20 AM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Ayoob isn't well liked in the tactical community.

There are reasons why.



Seriously?

huh. Well, I'm in Delta Farce and I've never heard that.

FWIW I like Ayoob enough... and I love Cooper.


My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.



Not true. In To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth he urges all shooters to band together. You may not like black guns, only your skeet gun, but the black gun shooter has the same RKBA as you do, and together you can protect both of your rights better.

I have never seen any comment by Cooper on the issue of .50s and aircraft, and I am sure that if he did mention it then what he said was taken out of context. ETA: Just saw the piece he wrote, and yes it was badly out of context if that is truly where the Brady Bunch got the idea.

I have met the Colonel on several occasions and I respect him greatly. He is rooted in the past and too old to change, but that does not make his wisdom less valuable--you shouldn't take what he says as the gospel, but you should consider it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:26:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.



???

...

!!!

wow. I haven't seen that - at all, anywhere - but if true, wow.


Not quite as negative as I remember but bad enough.
www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/cooper/0509/
It is interesting to learn that the new importer of Steyr equipment is now offering a single-shot sporting rifle in caliber .50 BMG. It is hard to come up with a purpose for such a piece, but as with so many grown men’s toys, the purpose of the instrument is simply to have something that nobody else has. The .50 BMG cartridge is an item of strikingly limited utility, but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things are for. If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it.

Those of us who have used the .50 BMG in the field usually have great affection for it, though under circumstances we would prefer not to see repeated. I guess we should not get too serious about such things, but I once saw a defunct Japanese Zero that had been shot out of the air by one round of .50 BMG. Oddly enough, it was almost unhurt, except for a half-inch hole through its vitals.




"Bad enough?"

Sorry, you lost me. He merely said he couldn't figure out why someone would want one, but "If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it."

Not the stinging criticism I'd expected, even with your "Not quite as negative as I remember..." qualifier.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:26:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.



???

...

!!!

wow. I haven't seen that - at all, anywhere - but if true, wow.


Not quite as negative as I remember but bad enough. The constant bashing of the 5.56 gets old too.



www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/cooper/0509/
It is interesting to learn that the new importer of Steyr equipment is now offering a single-shot sporting rifle in caliber .50 BMG. It is hard to come up with a purpose for such a piece, but as with so many grown men’s toys, the purpose of the instrument is simply to have something that nobody else has. The .50 BMG cartridge is an item of strikingly limited utility, but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things are for. If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it.

Those of us who have used the .50 BMG in the field usually have great affection for it, though under circumstances we would prefer not to see repeated. I guess we should not get too serious about such things, but I once saw a defunct Japanese Zero that had been shot out of the air by one round of .50 BMG. Oddly enough, it was almost unhurt, except for a half-inch hole through its vitals.




Based on that, I would say that Jeff Cooper is an asshat of the first order.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:36:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Silesius:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.



???

...

!!!

wow. I haven't seen that - at all, anywhere - but if true, wow.


Not quite as negative as I remember but bad enough. The constant bashing of the 5.56 gets old too.



www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/cooper/0509/
It is interesting to learn that the new importer of Steyr equipment is now offering a single-shot sporting rifle in caliber .50 BMG. It is hard to come up with a purpose for such a piece, but as with so many grown men’s toys, the purpose of the instrument is simply to have something that nobody else has. The .50 BMG cartridge is an item of strikingly limited utility, but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things are for. If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it.

Those of us who have used the .50 BMG in the field usually have great affection for it, though under circumstances we would prefer not to see repeated. I guess we should not get too serious about such things, but I once saw a defunct Japanese Zero that had been shot out of the air by one round of .50 BMG. Oddly enough, it was almost unhurt, except for a half-inch hole through its vitals.




Based on that, I would say that Jeff Cooper is an asshat of the first order.



And I would say you need to closely read and comprehend what he is saying. Unless he's encoded something in there I don't see, he's basically a Libertarian about it. What am I missing?
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:41:56 AM EDT

Jeff Cooper writing style is starting to sound like Higgins (or is it Robin masters?).
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:46:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:47:06 AM EDT by ken_mays]

Originally Posted By joker581:
Ayoob puts out some good info, but sometimes he just annoys the shit out of me. A prime example of this is the Rosen ARG holster. Ayoob designed it, and it used to be named after him.



Ayoob
Royalty
Generator<­BR>
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:48:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 11:49:43 AM EDT by SC_00_05]

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
My problem with Cooper is that, IIRC, he said that there's no reason for us mere civilians to own .50BMGs. In fact, he gave the antis ammo by stating the dreaded "they're used to shoot down airplanes" line.



???

...

!!!

wow. I haven't seen that - at all, anywhere - but if true, wow.


Not quite as negative as I remember but bad enough.
www.gunsandammomag.com/gun_columns/cooper/0509/
It is interesting to learn that the new importer of Steyr equipment is now offering a single-shot sporting rifle in caliber .50 BMG. It is hard to come up with a purpose for such a piece, but as with so many grown men’s toys, the purpose of the instrument is simply to have something that nobody else has. The .50 BMG cartridge is an item of strikingly limited utility, but a man need not be troubled by questions about what things are for. If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it.

Those of us who have used the .50 BMG in the field usually have great affection for it, though under circumstances we would prefer not to see repeated. I guess we should not get too serious about such things, but I once saw a defunct Japanese Zero that had been shot out of the air by one round of .50 BMG. Oddly enough, it was almost unhurt, except for a half-inch hole through its vitals.




"Bad enough?"

Sorry, you lost me. He merely said he couldn't figure out why someone would want one, but "If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it."

Not the stinging criticism I'd expected, even with your "Not quite as negative as I remember..." qualifier.


I think he comes off as pretty patronizing in the first paragraph. Kind of a "there's no reason for this gun but if you want to go waste your money as most men do, go ahead and get it" feel to it.

The second paragraph then goes on to state a VPC talking point.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:49:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:52:58 AM EDT
both ayoob and cooper were the firstest with the mostest. you younguns probably see them as fossilized dinosaurs, and you may be right, but in their prime, their teachings probably saved a lot of lives and paved the way for the higher speed guys to come along (especially cooper).
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 11:54:39 AM EDT
Cooper is an elitist, a member of the upper class, and an educated man who has been a military officer or teacher since the early 1940s. His writing style is unique, and he uses high diction, something that I often do as well.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:00:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By macman37:
"Bad enough?"

Sorry, you lost me. He merely said he couldn't figure out why someone would want one, but "If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it."

Not the stinging criticism I'd expected, even with your "Not quite as negative as I remember..." qualifier.


I think he comes off as pretty patronizing in the first paragraph. Kind of a "there's no reason for this gun but if you want to go waste your money as most men do, go ahead and get it" feel to it.

The second paragraph then goes on to state a VPC talking point.



You see it one way, I see it quite the opposite.

I don't agree with Cooper 100% by any stretch, but to accuse him of bleating VPC talking points is pretty silly. Especially when it's not true. He was simply relating his experiences with the round and its effectiveness...
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:03:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 12:06:58 PM EDT by rob78]

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By rob78:
Ayoob's articles are good. Most of what he writes deals specifically with real-world encounters that are well-researched...


What? You're shittin' me right? Ever read his account of the Miami shootout vs what actually occurred? Anything he didn't have direct involvement in is questionable, at best.




tell me, what actually occurred?

you have some first-hand knowledge of the time-table, police reports, etc.?

there are going to be variances in each account; that is unavoidable.

Ayoob may be guilty of a literary liberty or two (or three), but what he offers are several perspectives from which the reader may make their own deductions.

If anything, i appreciate Ayoob's inclusion of laws governing our right to self-defend. It's nice to know (for example) that in certain locales you are permitted to have a gun in plain sight, but must be unloaded. That in certain states once you walk out your front door your right to carry a weapon is revoked.

to find fault with his recounting of an event where "everyone's an expert"...well, that's natural.

the fact is, unless you were there I'll continue to glean information from Ayoob's writing.

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:04:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WindGapAR15:
Ayoob is entertaining. I blah blah blah my pussy hurts. Cooper is really blah blah blah oh, da-da-damn my pussy hurts. He's one of those older guys who thinks that my pussy doesn't hurt. Thats just boring and not worth ink on paperi n my opinion and if someone likes to think that my pussy doesn't hurt... well, that just chaps my taint. I would like to take this time to put some bactroban on my labia and brylcream in my pubes. Did I mention that my pussy hurts?




I like DF's articles and Emily's pics. Well, the AR-10 pics were sad IMHO. I don't know of anyone that does articles like he does. And, he is always factual, one of the first in line on info, and has neat pics of era gear and uniforms to go with the firearm articles. I can't fault that.

World would be a fucking goddamn boring place if everyone liked the same shit.

Dave S
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:07:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By macman37:
"Bad enough?"

Sorry, you lost me. He merely said he couldn't figure out why someone would want one, but "If he wants it, he might as well have it, as long as he can afford it."

Not the stinging criticism I'd expected, even with your "Not quite as negative as I remember..." qualifier.


I think he comes off as pretty patronizing in the first paragraph. Kind of a "there's no reason for this gun but if you want to go waste your money as most men do, go ahead and get it" feel to it.

The second paragraph then goes on to state a VPC talking point.



You see it one way, I see it quite the opposite.

I don't agree with Cooper 100% by any stretch, but to accuse him of bleating VPC talking points is pretty silly. Especially when it's not true. He was simply relating his experiences with the round and its effectiveness...


I think it bothered me much more because I'm in CA and we just had the .50BMG banned. Most of us were busy browbeating the CA politicians for making ludicrous claims that these rifles could take down an airplane and then a well respected "gun person" writes this. I understand he's just relating his experiences but stating things like that during a time when there was lots of talk of more .50 bans seems like a bad idea.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:09:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By rob78:
Ayoob's articles are good. Most of what he writes deals specifically with real-world encounters that are well-researched...


What? You're shittin' me right? Ever read his account of the Miami shootout vs what actually occurred? Anything he didn't have direct involvement in is questionable, at best.




tell me, what actually occurred?

you have some first-hand knowledge of the time-table, police reports, etc.?

there are going to be variances in each account; that is unavoidable.

Ayoob may be guilty of a literary liberty or two (or three), but what he offers are several perspectives from which the reader may make their own deductions.

If anything, i appreciate Ayoob's inclusion of laws governing our right to self-defend. It's nice to know (for example) that in certain locales you are permitted to have a gun in plain sight, but must be unloaded. That in certain states once you walk out your front door your right to carry a weapon is revoked.



I've actually got an in depth report. However, this website does a decent job of covering the highlights. Unless MA was actually involved in the case, there is generally inaccuracies due to inadequate research.

He writes well and is easy to read. Every now and again he makes a good point about legal issues, but for the most part he's just another gun writer.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:22:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By rob78:

Originally Posted By dport:

Originally Posted By rob78:
Ayoob's articles are good. Most of what he writes deals specifically with real-world encounters that are well-researched...


What? You're shittin' me right? Ever read his account of the Miami shootout vs what actually occurred? Anything he didn't have direct involvement in is questionable, at best.




tell me, what actually occurred?

you have some first-hand knowledge of the time-table, police reports, etc.?

there are going to be variances in each account; that is unavoidable.

Ayoob may be guilty of a literary liberty or two (or three), but what he offers are several perspectives from which the reader may make their own deductions.

If anything, i appreciate Ayoob's inclusion of laws governing our right to self-defend. It's nice to know (for example) that in certain locales you are permitted to have a gun in plain sight, but must be unloaded. That in certain states once you walk out your front door your right to carry a weapon is revoked.



I've actually got an in depth report. However, this website does a decent job of covering the highlights. Unless MA was actually involved in the case, there is generally inaccuracies due to inadequate research.

He writes well and is easy to read. Every now and again he makes a good point about legal issues, but for the most part he's just another gun writer.



I can agree with most of the above.

Yes, he's a gun writer....and gun writers as a rule (IMO) are terrible at their craft. Abused cliche's, a literary style as "spicy" as warm milk, and as of late (product write-ups) about as objective as a cheerleading team.

He on the other hand hasn't tried to sell me anything...and for that I find his prose worthy of respect.

others will be along to tell me how great John Taffin's Campfire Tales are, or Cooper's Corner is...fact is, when I want to read for entertainment only I'll look for something other than gun rags.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:28:30 PM EDT
Jeff writes many things about the newest latest greatest rifle and cartridge that comes and goes with the latest "FAD" and what can it do any better than say a '50s bolt action rifle in 30/06? You read in many gun rags about the latest revision of a hunting rifle in the flavor of the month that’s the best thing since sliced bread, but doesn't do a thing that the older design couldn't do just as well. But if the gun rags can't convince you to buy it, then their advertisers wouldn't have something new to sell.

If it wasn't for Jeff Cooper we'd still be shooting one handed from the FBI crouch. The things he learned during the “Leatherslap” matches at Big Bear became what is today the modern technique.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 12:57:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 12:58:55 PM EDT by AdrianUSP9]

One article he [Mas]wrote was on using a 20 gauge with birdshot as the uber HD weapon. It was really hard for me to take about anything he had to say seriously after that...


At LFI-I I remember he spoke about the 20 gauge for home defense. He mentioned it was an excellent choice, especially for women or smaller individuals who would have difficulty controlling a 12 gauge.

He mentioned the 20 gauge autoloader has 50% less recoil than a 12 gauge pump.
Loaded with #3 buckshot it spews 20, .25 ca. pellets.
I wouldn't call it the "ultimate manstopper" but neither did he. I believe he referred to it as more of a "comprimise."

Mas is the last person I know who would prostelitize one type of weapon as being "the ultimate." At LFI/Stressfire all he asked of the class was to try it his way and see if it works for them. You need to pick and choose techniques that work for you, and he is a big believer in that.

The research he (and Cooper) have done on firearm techniques has been invaluable, and when it comes down to the legal aspects of self-defense, there is no more knowledgable person around that Massad Ayoob.

To those who say Stressfire is basic, that's the idea. In a gunfight, you revert down to the fundamentals you've trained with. I've learned some tricked out Navy SEAL/DELTA/SWAT shit at various classes, but I can't imagine I could perform half of them under fire. Stressfire techniques are solid fundamentals, and they make up a good portion of the techniques that LE and the military are trained on.

Did Mas develop all of the Stressfire techniques? No. I don't think he would ever claim he did. He spent a dozen years traveling the coutnry and looking at real gunfights and speaking to the people who were involved. He sorted through what had worked, and what had failed, and put them together in a package.

I may be baised, I went through LFI and spent 40 hours with the guy. I've read most of his books. He knows his stuff. Is he a little arrogant? Yeah, and he'll be the first to admit that. He loves signing books and having is photo taken. Does he dress accordingly to match his gun? Maybe, but his photo actually ends up in publications that are circulated to hundreds of thousands of people. I'd want to look good too. Besides, just look at the mall ninjas on this board. Mas (and Cooper) been around the block. I think its pretty arrognat for people sit on their computers and call their stuff crap. You don't have to agree with it, and you don't have to like these guys, but show a little respect at least.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:02:10 PM EDT
I emailed Ayoob last year about some statistics for patrol rifle usage. He emailed me back the next day and was very helpful. It was not abrupt or snide and I appreciated his help. Frankly I don't give a damn about the gun magazines. I'm pretty sure most of us have contributed to his wealth by buying the magazines he writes for at some time or another. He's actually a fortunate guy. His job is his hobby and his hobby is his job. Not many people can say that.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:02:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AdrianUSP9:
snip
To those who say Stressfire is basic, that's the idea. In a gunfight, you revert down to the fundamentals you've trained with. I've learned some tricked out Navy SEAL/DELTA/SWAT shit at various classes, but I can't imagine I could perform half of them under fire. Stressfire techniques are solid fundamentals, and they make up a good portion of the techniques that LE and the military are trained on.

Did Mas develop all of the Stressfire techniques? No. I don't think he would ever claim he did. He spent a dozen years traveling the coutnry and looking at real gunfights and speaking to the people who were involved. He sorted through what had worked, and what had failed, and put them together in a package.

snip



That was me and I agree with you. I like Stressfire (I'm due for a re-reading in fact)... You could do a lot worse than default to Stressfire principles in a SHTF situation.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:23:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 1:28:13 PM EDT by AdrianUSP9]

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By AdrianUSP9:
snip
To those who say Stressfire is basic, that's the idea. In a gunfight, you revert down to the fundamentals you've trained with. I've learned some tricked out Navy SEAL/DELTA/SWAT shit at various classes, but I can't imagine I could perform half of them under fire. Stressfire techniques are solid fundamentals, and they make up a good portion of the techniques that LE and the military are trained on.

Did Mas develop all of the Stressfire techniques? No. I don't think he would ever claim he did. He spent a dozen years traveling the coutnry and looking at real gunfights and speaking to the people who were involved. He sorted through what had worked, and what had failed, and put them together in a package.

snip



That was me and I agree with you. I like Stressfire (I'm due for a re-reading in fact)... You could do a lot worse than default to Stressfire principles in a SHTF situation.



Sorry, I misunderstood you, we're on the same page. I like stressfire because it is easy, natural, street proven and makes sense.

Anyways, whoever called it "gangster" maybe this is what they saw. In this instance, it makes sense to me.

Image from Combat Handgunnery, 5th edition, Massad Ayoob.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:48:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By joker581:

I still don't know what Fortier brings to the table when he is writing. And I don't even want to get started on the pictures in his articles.

Actually, I do. What the fuck is up with having someone take pictures of you in different outfits to match the guns you are reviewing? It is just fucking gay. The fact that he has a wife, much less a wife who would take those pictures, is amazing.



Fortier's articles are historical as well as technical, so his pictures place the firearm in it's historical context. Your personal attack on his family relations reminds me of my JR high PE class- immature and empty male posturing. Blindly insulting the man and his wife is very bad form.

I think you're just jealous of a man better than you.

Easy there, cowboy. Nobody is going after the guy's family. Allow me to rephrase.

I find it odd that he has his picture taken in in outfits that correspond to his subject matter, historical or not. I've seen everything from Fortier in a Soviet paratroopers uniform to Fortier posing in the newest Sigtac outfit. I've seen him in a ghillie suit, when shooting on a range.

What I have not seen is any indication that Fortier's writing has any grounding in experience. Nothing in his writing indicates why he is qualified to comment on the usefulness, or lack thereof, of anything he has reviewed. So there is no confusion, I do NOT think that he should be writing half of every article as a personal history and an exhibition of his experience. I do think that he, and every other writer out there, should at least add a footnote indicating why anyone should believe anything he says.

My comment was not intended as an insult to his wife. I don't know anything about the woman, nor do I care to. What I do know is that most women frown on such things as you dressing up and having a photo shoot for a magazine. I find it surprising that someone who makes a habit of such things landed a wife. Good for him. That she will willingly participate in such things truely does amaze me. My wife would laugh me out of the house if I suggested such a thing.

I did not intend to insult anyone's family.

I also feel obligated to state that I am most certainly not jealous of David Fortier. He may well be a better man than me, but there is nothing in his writing that would indicate it. My knowledge of what works and what doesn't is based in real, verifiable experience. I have no idea of where his comes from. A quick Google search didn't shed any light on it, and I have never seen a word in print that indicates that he has any.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 1:57:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AdrianUSP9:
whoever called it "gangster"

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 2:13:58 PM EDT
Ayoob is scared of Chuck Norris.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:02:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CRC:
"It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them"




This is borne out by the encounter by the intruder in my leased condo at the Prestonwood Condominiums in Dallas(Preston&Arapaho). The intruder tried to rush me since the 'word' on the street was that the condominium was primarily older white/Jewish residents that were more scared of shooting someone and the legal consequences than they were of the criminals. The burglars would rush the occupant and take the weapon away from them. Bingo. Extra goodies during the heist.

This particular one learned quickly that a .452" FMJ > 12" screwdriver.

wganz

Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:07:50 PM EDT
Adding more to my Mas comments.

Yes, I have heard he has mellowed and now admits to being a bit arrogant. That is called maturing and surviving in business. He has been "spanked" by the professional firearms instructors, the industry, and excluded from many opportunities related to his business because of his past arrogance. I think it is more of an improvise, adapt, overcome - attitude on his part. He found his arrogant demeanor and attitude was costing him business and really becoming a negative factor causing him to lose... or not gain the respect he wanted in the industry.

I never said he was stupid... he has learned from his mistakes and has taylored his demeanor to continue his career.

Which throws more into this thread... speaking of taylored, Chuck Taylor. Here is an example of arrogant behavior where he did not choose to change or could not adapt as well as Mas. I don't hear that name often.

Jim Cirillo, now there is an entertaining man! I have more than met the man... I have worked with him at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) in Glynco GA. Every minute was enjoyable and usually very entertaining. A funny guy, very down to earth.
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:14:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By joker581:
I still don't know what Fortier brings to the table when he is writing. And I don't even want to get started on the pictures in his articles.

Actually, I do. What the fuck is up with having someone take pictures of you in different outfits to match the guns you are reviewing? It is just fucking gay. The fact that he has a wife, much less a wife who would take those pictures, is amazing.



Hey, he quit that crap a couple months ago. He has been playing it pretty darn straight since.
And his writing has improved as well. Less gimmicks, more facts.

Larry
Link Posted: 2/7/2006 3:33:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2006 3:35:27 PM EDT by AcidGambit]
Ayoob is full of shit... He works for a tiny dept in a low crime area, he has never been in a gunfight, he has never been in a shooting, he has never shot anyone. He's a fucking jewler.

He is good when it comes to legal issues in regards to shooting and post shooting. As for gunfighting and guns, he is full of shit. Guy never met a gun he didn't like.

If your going to look up to and/or learn from someone, be sure they have actually done the shit they are teaching/preaching...
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