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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/15/2005 3:33:26 PM EDT
Right now they're being forced to play by our silly-ass, libtard rules of engagement and general "moral high roadedness". Once we're gone I do believe the gloves will come off and we'll see how an Arab army deals with it's own people who cause insurrection. It won't be pretty, and the libs will howl in disbelief. It'll be "our fault"---after all, we trained them, right? It may in fact not seem to be too far off from Saddam's draconian tactics. However, they DO know how to deal with their own.

All these naysayers are predicting a collapse after our departure. I'm not so sure it will happen. Some here won't like how it's done, but tough shit! Maybe we could learn a lesson from it ourselves.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:41:07 PM EDT
They will torture the hell out of whoever they don't like...along with a few terrorists.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:42:06 PM EDT
Worked in Central America
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:44:15 PM EDT
Don't kid yourself, we're in Iraq for the long haul. We don't want a free and independent Iraq, because they wouldn't vote as we'd like. We need to secure oil, and we need to be able to intimidate Iran and Syria.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:45:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
Don't kid yourself, we're in Iraq for the long haul. We don't want a free and independent Iraq, because they wouldn't vote as we'd like. We need to secure oil, and we need to be able to intimidate Iran and Syria.



yeah i agree, I would like to see the Iraqis take on a bigger role but I dont think we really want to leave.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:47:04 PM EDT
I think that when the dims win in 08 there will be an instant end to troops in Iraq.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:48:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I think that when the dims win in 08 there will be an instant end to troops in Iraq.



the way things are going for Bush i wouldn't be suprised if the dumbocrats won in 08.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:51:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:

Originally Posted By HarrySacz:
I think that when the dims win in 08 there will be an instant end to troops in Iraq.



the way things are going for Bush i wouldn't be suprised if the dumbocrats won in 08.




Let's hope not........
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:52:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 3:52:47 PM EDT by Duffy]
Three more years to buy the fun guns and stock up on mags, ammo, etc.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:58:30 PM EDT
I don't think they'll do well
But I honestly hope they do better than i think

Taffy
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:02:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 4:06:23 PM EDT by ABNAK]

Originally Posted By Taffy223:
I don't think they'll do well
But I honestly hope they do better than i think

Taffy




Will they be a top-notch army? Probably not. But they will revert to form and crackdown drastically. THAT is how they will succeed. Saddam-Lite, perhaps?


Hey, they'll be democratically elected thugs. Fine by me.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:05:01 PM EDT
I wonder if the terroist will stop when we are gone? or maybe they will try to take it over. All in favor of carpet bombing say I.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:05:24 PM EDT
For the next 3 years, the Dems and the fifth column will not be able to spin/suppress news of the growth of the fledgling democracy in Iraq. People will intuitively realize that democracy was ACHIEVED in the Middle East by millions of earnest Iraqis with the help of Dubya. Repubs will crush the Dems again in '08.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:40:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By alaman:
Worked in Central America



Roger that.......
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:21:46 AM EDT
I don't think they'll do any better than the Vietnamese military did once we stopped propping them up. The country will devolve into total chaos and civil war and get divided up amongst the various groups.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:27:02 AM EDT
When the Iraqi's assume control I think they will slide right back to the practices they have always had in the Islamic world. The same for their political and religious practices but first they will have a "cleansing." Remember there are many warlords there with their own armies like that guy in Sadar City.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:37:38 AM EDT
I dont think we will ever be "out" of Iraq,but it wont be long untill their army is taking the lead in fighting the islamofacists in Iraq.I would not be supprised to see us set up baseing in the north among the kurds.I dont think even a dimocrap would pull us out of Iraq totally,but could be wrong on this.I dont think anyone ever lost a paycheck betting on the stupidity of libtards
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:00:12 AM EDT
Are you here right now? Or have you been?



Cuz I think/know they wont.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:14:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 5:33:01 PM EDT by ABNAK]

Originally Posted By tyman:
Are you here right now? Or have you been?



Cuz I think/know they wont.




To answer your question: No, I haven't been to Iraq. Never claimed to, so ease up.

But since you are there then surely you can attest to the dumbass "rules" we play by and the "sensitivities" we don't want to "offend", as told to me by a number of guys who have also been there. I'm merely saying that, while far from a high-speed fighting force like ours, they will resort to things we would never do (but probably should) to stifle the insurgency. Hey, after all they ARE an Arab army, and using "elite" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

As far as the reference to South Vietnam goes, remember that by 1973 (when we pulled out) that the NVA regular units were the primary enemy. The Viet Cong had been pretty much decimated in the Tet Offensive when they were put on the "tip of the spear" of the assault forces. As far as I know the insurgency in Iraq does not have regular conventional units comparable to the NVA. I'm not saying that fighting the insurgency isn't tough, but conventional units are what eventually win power and take over. That was Giap's strategy---local guerrilla forces starting out, evolving to more main force units, then eventually a regular army using tanks, ADA, artillery, infantry formations, etc.


ETA---I think the last thing the terrorists, er, insurgents, want to do is form conventional type units (the kind needed to overtake the country). This would draw them out into regular "formations" where they would be absolutely decimated by us alone or our air power plus the Iraqi army. I'm sure many a U.S. strategist could only hope for such a juicy target. I know I would!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:30:55 PM EDT
Fighting against arabs makes just about any army look elite.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:37:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I don't think they'll do any better than the Vietnamese military did once we stopped propping them up. The country will devolve into total chaos and civil war and get divided up amongst the various groups.



+1
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:45:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I don't think they'll do any better than the Vietnamese military did once we stopped propping them up. The country will devolve into total chaos and civil war and get divided up amongst the various groups.



+1


The big differences is the Iraqi insurgents are not going to have another superpower to prop them up like the North Vietnamese. Even with the support of the USSR and China, the North Vietnamese were not able to take out South Vietnam after our ground troops left until we quit providing air support and military supplies too. If we had not cut the RVN completely off, it would probably still be around.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:47:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I don't think they'll do any better than the Vietnamese military did once we stopped propping them up. The country will devolve into total chaos and civil war and get divided up amongst the various groups.



If THAT'S the case then the whole world loses.

The Vietnamese communists were NOT on a "Mission from God", the 14th century throw-backs in the mid'-east ARE AND, will, in much shorter order (I'm not sure Vietnam's even considering it yet) attempt to gain nuclear leverage against the entire NON-INSANE world. When/If that happens everybody's screwed.

I don't know if the Iraqi's can pull it out or not but I'm hopin' to hell they can because the alternative kills millions waaay sooner than some of you people think.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:51:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 5:52:02 PM EDT by timothy585]

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I don't think they'll do any better than the Vietnamese military did once we stopped propping them up. The country will devolve into total chaos and civil war and get divided up amongst the various groups.



+1



+2

The mutt is only behaving because he knows a master is standing over him with a big stick. Once we're gone, he'll be back to his old ways.

You can't force democracy on a people; it has to be gained from within.

My .02

Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:00:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ClayP:
For the next 3 years, the Dems and the fifth column will not be able to spin/suppress news of the growth of the fledgling democracy in Iraq. People will intuitively realize that democracy was ACHIEVED in the Middle East by millions of earnest Iraqis with the help of Dubya. Repubs will crush the Dems again in '08.



Yep. The war IS technically over. We have achieved our goal, a democratic Iraq.

Are we leaving, not anytime soon. there will be a draw down of forces for political reasons, but we will be in Iraq for the next few decades unless the dems win control of the house and senate, which I dont see.

I predict we win or tie for seats in this mid term, which is a huge victory and that we win the Presidency and gain seats in 08.

I said it here a couple years ago. This country is on a move to more conservative values it's just no one knows because of the lib media. Now, with the net and Fox, people are waking up, including the Republicans. They are beginning to listen to their base, us right wing people who get them in power.

mark my words.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:04:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By timothy585:

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I don't think they'll do any better than the Vietnamese military did once we stopped propping them up. The country will devolve into total chaos and civil war and get divided up amongst the various groups.



+1



+2

The mutt is only behaving because he knows a master is standing over him with a big stick. Once we're gone, he'll be back to his old ways.

You can't force democracy on a people; it has to be gained from within.

My .02




Did we force that 80%+ turn out on election day?
The Iraqi's aren't dogs, and 2000+ U.S. citizens died GIVING them the chance to be free.
Iraq will fail, if we leave, that's why we must stay.
We just have to give up being the nations police, and become it's defender.

I hope we are still there 50 years from now, just like Germany, Japan, etc...
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:10:20 PM EDT
Within six months of us leaving, there will be a military coup, which will either leave us with:

(a) civil war, if suuni baathists try to retake power
(b) Iran light, if Shiites take power, with the blessing of Shia religious leaders
(c) a military dictator like Pakistan (which is probably our best hope, if he is our ally).



Just guessing, really.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:22:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:

Originally Posted By timothy585:

Originally Posted By R-32:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
I don't think they'll do any better than the Vietnamese military did once we stopped propping them up. The country will devolve into total chaos and civil war and get divided up amongst the various groups.



+1



+2

The mutt is only behaving because he knows a master is standing over him with a big stick. Once we're gone, he'll be back to his old ways.

You can't force democracy on a people; it has to be gained from within.

My .02




Did we force that 80%+ turn out on election day?
The Iraqi's aren't dogs, and 2000+ U.S. citizens died GIVING them the chance to be free.
Iraq will fail, if we leave, that's why we must stay.
We just have to give up being the nations police, and become it's defender.

I hope we are still there 50 years from now, just like Germany, Japan, etc...



Sorry, but if you don't see the differences between countries like Germany and Japan compared to Iraq, it's no use for me to even try to explain it to you.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:52:46 PM EDT
I think you're wrong... I think they will revert back to/ to non-human rights, beatings, false or suspect arrests. I think when we are gone.... IF, there is a Democratic government, you will see all the shitty muslim (not Jordan) countries undermine them and perhaps Iran will just plain out invade them. The only real good out of that shit hole are the Kurds.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:03:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:49:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By ClayP:
For the next 3 years, the Dems and the fifth column will not be able to spin/suppress news of the growth of the fledgling democracy in Iraq. People will intuitively realize that democracy was ACHIEVED in the Middle East by millions of earnest Iraqis with the help of Dubya. Repubs will crush the Dems again in '08.



Yep. The war IS technically over. We have achieved our goal, a democratic Iraq.

Are we leaving, not anytime soon. there will be a draw down of forces for political reasons, but we will be in Iraq for the next few decades unless the dems win control of the house and senate, which I dont see.

I predict we win or tie for seats in this mid term, which is a huge victory and that we win the Presidency and gain seats in 08.

I said it here a couple years ago. This country is on a move to more conservative values it's just no one knows because of the lib media. Now, with the net and Fox, people are waking up, including the Republicans. They are beginning to listen to their base, us right wing people who get them in power.

mark my words.



We can still throw it away in Iraq which is what will happen if the Democrats get their way.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 9:53:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Sorry, Senator McCain is slotted to be the next Prez.


God fucking help us.....
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:02:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ABNAK:

Originally Posted By tyman:
Are you here right now? Or have you been?



Cuz I think/know they wont.




To answer your question: No, I haven't been to Iraq. Never claimed to, so ease up.

But since you are there then surely you can attest to the dumbass "rules" we play by and the "sensitivities" we don't want to "offend", as told to me by a number of guys who have also been there. I'm merely saying that, while far from a high-speed fighting force like ours, they will resort to things we would never do (but probably should) to stifle the insurgency. Hey, after all they ARE an Arab army, and using "elite" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

As far as the reference to South Vietnam goes, remember that by 1973 (when we pulled out) that the NVA regular units were the primary enemy. The Viet Cong had been pretty much decimated in the Tet Offensive when they were put on the "tip of the spear" of the assault forces. As far as I know the insurgency in Iraq does not have regular conventional units comparable to the NVA. I'm not saying that fighting the insurgency isn't tough, but conventional units are what eventually win power and take over. That was Giap's strategy---local guerrilla forces starting out, evolving to more main force units, then eventually a regular army using tanks, ADA, artillery, infantry formations, etc.


ETA---I think the last thing the terrorists, er, insurgents, want to do is form conventional type units (the kind needed to overtake the country). This would draw them out into regular "formations" where they would be absolutely decimated by us alone or our air power plus the Iraqi army. I'm sure many a U.S. strategist could only hope for such a juicy target. I know I would!



It wasnt one of those types of "are you here" questions.

I was just merely asking if you were here or had been here.

While they are coming together nicely, they are still an Arab army.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:02:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:01:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By postpostban:
Did we force that 80%+ turn out on election day?
The Iraqi's aren't dogs, and 2000+ U.S. citizens died GIVING them the chance to be free.
Iraq will fail, if we leave, that's why we must stay.
We just have to give up being the nations police, and become it's defender.

I hope we are still there 50 years from now, just like Germany, Japan, etc...


I sincerely hope that we are NOT there in 50 years, or even 10 years.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:09:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Within six months of us leaving, there will be a military coup, which will either leave us with:

(a) civil war, if suuni baathists try to retake power
(b) Iran light, if Shiites take power, with the blessing of Shia religious leaders
(c) a military dictator like Pakistan (which is probably our best hope, if he is our ally).



Just guessing, really.



Some valid ideas of what may happen. I think if we ever leave there is a chance of a 3 way split or more. Either military dictatorships with "warlords" or Iran gobbling up one.

I don't think democracy has much of a chance of taking root there.
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