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Posted: 1/26/2009 10:28:34 AM EDT
I had my Garand apart for cleaning and was checking out how the trigger group functioned. When you engage the safety on a Garand, in addition to blocking the trigger, a massive hook grabs a notch cut into the side of the hammer and pulls the hammer back off the sear.

On most firearms, the safety just blocks the trigger and/or the sear. With this design, if the sear engagement notch broke, the hammer would fall and the weapon would fire.

With a Garand, there is no way for the hammer to fall unless the hook/hammer engagement and the sear engagement area both broke. Pretty ingenious if you ask me.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:31:54 AM EDT
[#1]
Some double barrel shotguns decock the hammers when you apply the safety.

On newer marlin leverguns, the cross bolt blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:35:23 AM EDT
[#2]
You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway so from where I sit, its a mute point. The BEST safety has always been the one between your ears anyway.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:36:40 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway


No shit?

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:36:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Is it similar to the half-cock function in .30-.30 levers?
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:37:18 AM EDT
[#5]
The safety on my M14 is just as good.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:37:58 AM EDT
[#6]


Quoted:



Quoted:

You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway




No shit?



Doesnt stop it from being a common cause of accidental death/suicide, according to news agencies...its always cleaning a loaded weapon...wonder how that happens...do they got a cleaning rod between the eyes or something?





 
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:38:13 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway so from where I sit, its a mute point.



Thanks for those words of wisdom.

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:38:17 AM EDT
[#8]
It is a good safety design, I just don't like the physical placement of the safety. I think that it is a bad idea to make someone reach inside the trigger guard in order to disengage the safety.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:38:40 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Is it similar to the half-cock function in .30-.30 levers?


After looking at how the half cock notch is made....I don't think it would be all that hard to break one.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:39:23 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway so from where I sit, its a mute point. The BEST safety has always been the one between your ears anyway.


Moot.

If you accidentally touched off a round while cleaning a Garand, you might think everyone around you was mute.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:43:05 AM EDT
[#11]
Canadians are smart.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:45:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
It is a good safety design, I just don't like the physical placement of the safety. I think that it is a bad idea to make someone reach inside the trigger guard in order to engage the safety.


You don't. It is engaged from outside the trigger guard, pushing it back.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:45:40 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
The safety on my M14 is just as good.


Funny



Two things I dislike about the safety design, one has already been mentioned: having to place your finger inside the trigger guard to disengage the safety and two it's hard to disengage the safety quietly. I had a buck mule deer startle at the sound of the safety on my M1A clicking off from 120 yards away this year.

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:48:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Some double barrel shotguns decock the hammers when you apply the safety.

On newer marlin leverguns, the cross bolt blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin.




The safety of some firearms are inadequate IMO. For example, an SKS safety only blocks the trigger. I imagine dropping an SKS from a sufficient height with the safety engaged could jar the sear from the hammer and result in the gun firing.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:49:31 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway so from where I sit, its a mute point. The BEST safety has always been the one between your ears anyway.


Moot.

If you accidentally touched off a round while cleaning a Garand, you might think everyone around you was mute.



meh...... irregardless.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 10:52:03 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Is it similar to the half-cock function in .30-.30 levers?



Not at all. If the sear broke on a lever gun, the half-cock won't do a bit of good unless your lever gun has a cross bolt safety and it's engaged.

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 11:28:48 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Canadians are smart.


Zing!
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 11:46:27 AM EDT
[#18]
This conversation got me curious about the effectiveness of the safety on an HK91. I have always suspected that the HK91 safety only blocked the trigger and didn't lock the sear into the hammer, but I've never taken the time to analyze it until now.

I just removed my HK91 trigger group and engaged the safety. I then took a letter opener and pushed downward on the sear AND THE HAMMER FELL. So an HK91 can fire even with the safety is on. I imagine it would take a drop from a pretty high height to dislodge the sear from the hammer. Basically the drop needs to be of sufficient height to overcome the sear spring tension and that's it. If you done a trigger job (lighter spring and cut away some of the sear notch), it would be easier for it to fire if dropped.

The lesson to learn here is you should understand the limits of your firearm safety and don't assume just because the safety is engaged the firearm can't fire if dropped.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 11:49:17 AM EDT
[#19]

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 11:50:04 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway so from where I sit, its a mute point. The BEST safety has always been the one between your ears anyway.


Moot.

If you accidentally touched off a round while cleaning a Garand, you might think everyone around you was mute.



meh...... irregardless.


Link Posted: 1/26/2009 11:55:35 AM EDT
[#21]




That one movie line has done more harm to gun safety practices than anything else I can think of.

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:03:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:




That one movie line has done more harm to gun safety practices than anything else I can think of.



Darwin always wins in the long run.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:06:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
It is a good safety design, I just don't like the physical placement of the safety. I think that it is a bad idea to make someone reach inside the trigger guard in order to engage the safety.


+1...an as mentioned above in the correction
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:08:23 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:12:05 PM EDT
[#25]
I really like the safety design of the M1/M14 rifles.  Quick, instinctive, positive.  John C. was a fucking genius.

I did talk to a Korean War Marine vet no too long ago (he owned a machine shop) that told me he didn't like the safety because it was too noisy.  Now, I'm not usually one to argue with an combat vet, but I have to disagree with him on this one, only because the safety can be disengaged quietly if you are careful.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:12:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Love my M1A's saftey.  Only time its on fire is when I am in position ready to take the shot.  Fast to engage or disengage.

And when you are engaging the saftey on the M1 Garand or the M14, if your finger is INSIDE the trigger guard, well, you're doin it wrong. . . .

As for the BHD pic, I think it makes a good saftey poster:

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:13:27 PM EDT
[#27]
The Star 30M & Megastar pistols have a safety that doesn't interfere with the hammer or sear at all.  It retracts the firing pin below the surface of the slide so the hammer cannot reach it and that's all.  It's unsettling to those used to 1911 style safeties but it works well.  You can dry fire all day with the safety on.  I'm a big fan of the 30M, the Megastar not so much...  

The best of all worlds is the Ruger style transfer bar.

Yes, I understand that both these methods are not really applicable to self loading or full auto rifles.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:13:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
I really like the safety design of the M1/M14 rifles.  Quick, instinctive, positive.  John C. was a fucking genius.

I did talk to a Korean War Marine vet no too long ago (he owned a machine shop) that told me he didn't like the safety because it was too noisy.  Now, I'm not usually one to argue with an combat vet, but I have to disagree with him on this one, only because the safety can be disengaged quietly if you are careful.



Agreed. If you have the time, you can disengage a Garand safety slowly using two fingers (thumb and first finger) and it's pretty quiet.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:17:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had my Garand apart for cleaning and was checking out how the trigger group functioned. When you engage the safety on a Garand, in addition to blocking the trigger, a massive hook grabs a notch cut into the side of the hammer and pulls the hammer back off the sear.

On most firearms, the safety just blocks the trigger and/or the sear. With this design, if the sear engagement notch broke, the hammer would fall and the weapon would fire.

With a Garand, there is no way for the hammer to fall unless the hook/hammer engagement and the sear engagement area both broke. Pretty ingenious if you ask me.


...except for the fact that it required finger in the trigger guard to deactivate the safety. More than 1 GI ended up with a loud noise just trying to put the safety back on, especially under stress.


In a military context, by the time you're disengaging the safety from your M1, your trigger finger should be inside the trigger guard.

Combat can stressful to say the least (insane heartbeat, tunnel vision, legs that feel like spaghetti, butterflies in your stomach, the whole thing sucks), but if you can't do that without an NG, then that rifleman needs to either calm down, or receive remedial training (in the form of a boot up his ass).  There's no such thing as a "human proof" rifle.  
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:19:36 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
It is a good safety design, I just don't like the physical placement of the safety. I think that it is a bad idea to make someone reach inside the trigger guard in order to engage the safety.


thought this the first time I fired mine and my Father's M1 we bought on the EE.

wonder how many NDs occurred if any.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:20:11 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I really like the safety design of the M1/M14 rifles.  Quick, instinctive, positive.  John C. was a fucking genius.

I did talk to a Korean War Marine vet no too long ago (he owned a machine shop) that told me he didn't like the safety because it was too noisy.  Now, I'm not usually one to argue with an combat vet, but I have to disagree with him on this one, only because the safety can be disengaged quietly if you are careful.



Agreed. If you have the time, you can disengage a Garand safety slowly using two fingers (thumb and first finger) and it's pretty quiet.


I have always (and repeatedly) said, "five million (and then some) M1 Garands can't be wrong".

Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:29:58 PM EDT
[#32]
The Garand is only tricking you until it can eat your thumb.  
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:31:55 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:41:24 PM EDT
[#34]
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 12:52:38 PM EDT
[#35]
Nearly every component on an M1 serves at least two purposes.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 2:30:25 PM EDT
[#36]
In a war zone, the enemy is going to be hearing my first shot about 1/2 second after he hears me disengage the safety.  Never understood the whole "Safety is too loud" argument in a war zone.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 2:38:56 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
You shouldn't be cleaning your weapon LOADED anyway so from where I sit, its a mute point. The BEST safety has always been the one between your ears anyway.


are we talking about cleaning a gun while loaded or cleaning a loaded gun?
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 2:39:42 PM EDT
[#38]


Just the image I thought of given the OP.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 2:41:15 PM EDT
[#39]
i disagree I think the M14/M1A safety is the best
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 2:46:00 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
The safety on my M14 Mini is just as good.


Fixed.  
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