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Posted: 9/27/2005 2:06:13 PM EDT
If you can answer the question, please do so and let's discuss. If you have no answer, just read and then go to a different thread.


Okay so Jews don't believe in heaven.

They don't believe in hell.

They don't even believe in an afterlife.

And they don't prosyletize or try to convert people to spread their message either.

And yet they believe they are God's "chosen people".

"Chosen" to do what!???

I just don't understand what the purpose of Judaism is if there is no afterlife and no "personal" God that wants you to be "saved" or bring others to know God.

I know I must be missing something obvious - but according the Jewish religion, what are the Jews "chosen" to do?



Okay people - it's a simple question. Jews are the only major religion in the world who call themselves God's "chosen people". I'm asking a legitimate question for those who know the answer: What are the Jewish people "chosen" to do or be?

And if you don't have an answer - don't post in this thread.

Thank you.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:09:30 PM EDT
I think it boils down to leading a good life and treating others well too.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:12:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bblake00:
I think it boils down to leading a good life and treating others well too.

Buddhists, Hindis and even atheists try to do that.


"Chosen people".

What does that mean to the Jewish people?

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:16:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
I think it boils down to leading a good life and treating others well too.

Buddhists, Hindis and even atheists try to do that.


"Chosen people".

What does that mean to the Jewish people?




First in line at Disney? Hell if I know. Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:17:38 PM EDT
IBTL and perhaps even a bann....
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:21:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 2:24:41 PM EDT by Dino]
Mac,
I'm not Jewish and I find the first part of your post EXTREMELY offensive. Your original thread was locked due to the offensive nature of the post.


Posted by VA-Gunnut
I'm sure you know the rules for posting in this forum?

How about trying to ask the questions you have without trying to belittle the another faith. I suggest you start a new thread, and ask the questions you have without sounding so condescending.



I found this info that contradicts much of your opening rant
Ask Rabbi Simmons about Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife



p.s. please edit your first post, thanks


Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:25:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bblake00:
Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"

Then in that case, why is there little or no emphasis in Judaism on spreading the word, law and protection of God to non-Jews?

If living under God's law is the right thing to do and one of the first lessons of the OT is that we are indeed our brother's keeper, then why don't Jews work to teach non-Jews to become part of the "chosen people"?

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:31:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
Mac,
I'm not Jewish and I find the first part of your post EXTREMELY offensive. Your original thread was locked due to the offensive nature of the post.


Posted by VA-Gunnut
I'm sure you know the rules for posting in this forum?

How about trying to ask the questions you have without trying to belittle the another faith. I suggest you start a new thread, and ask the questions you have without sounding so condescending.



I found this info that contradicts much of your opening rant
Ask Rabbi Simmons about Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife

p.s. please edit your first post, thanks

Well see, there ya go! Was that so hard?


I have several close friends who are Jewish and from each one I've heard everything I posted above - that "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" and there ain't no more after that. No heaven, no hell... all there is is here on earth. That's why the Jews of Jesus' day were so perplexed at the idea that the Messiah was not going to establish a Kingdom on Earth in the traditional, "King David/King Solomon" kind of way they were all expecting. They even mocked Jesus' teachings of the afterlife by questioning him about a woman married to seven men, who's she going to be the wife of in this so-called afterlife he preached about. So many times Jesus had to teach about the Kingdom of Heaven because that was so foreign to the teachings of Judaism before that time.

How many times is "heaven" mentioned in the OT?

I didn't write this thread to sling insults - it's a very legitimate question (and still is, your link notwithstanding) based on my interactions with Jewish people around me.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:37:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
If you can answer the question, please do so and let's discuss. If you have no answer, just read and then go to a different thread.


Okay so Jews don't believe in heaven.

They don't believe in hell.

They don't even believe in an afterlife.

And they don't prosyletize or try to convert people to spread their message either.

And yet they believe they are God's "chosen people".

"Chosen" to do what!???

I just don't understand what the purpose of Judaism is if there is no afterlife and no "personal" God that wants you to be "saved" or bring others to know God.

I know I must be missing something obvious - but according the Jewish religion, what are the Jews "chosen" to do?



Okay people - it's a simple question. Jews are the only major religion in the world who call themselves God's "chosen people". I'm asking a legitimate question for those who know the answer: What are the Jewish people "chosen" to do or be?

And if you don't have an answer - don't post in this thread.

Thank you.



____________________________________________

Re:

Okay so Jews don't believe in heaven.

They don't believe in hell.

They don't even believe in an afterlife.


___

Generally, regarding a heaven or an afterlife, the Hebrew Bible makes no direct reference to a heaven or hell as a place to which people go after death. Only after the destruction of the Second Temple and exile of Jews to Babylonia did Jews come under the strong influence of Zoroastrian teachings did the concept of heaven and hell become the subject matter of serious discussion among Jews.

Most Jews today, Orthodox and non-Orthodox, believe in the immortality of the soul, but not all believe in paradise and hell and the physical resurrection of the dead.

_____________________________________________

Re:

"And they don't prosyletize or try to convert people to spread their message either."

___

This was not always true. Even in the Christian Gospels it is told that Jews would sail across seas to convert...or words to that effect. In those times, that was quite probably very true, as Jews had established trade routes through much of what is now Europe and the UK...so why not prosyletize?

The Romans were less caring about what a person's religion was as long as they were nice, tax-paying citizens. The Catholic Church made prosyletizing a death sentence for both the prosyletizer and the convertant.

____________________________________________

Re:

"I just don't understand what the purpose of Judaism is if there is no afterlife and no "personal" God that wants you to be "saved" or bring others to know God. "

___

Judaism, as expressed in the Hebrew Bible, is a core of ethics. The Ten Commandments have influenced many religions. Saved? We believe, as do those who have accepted the responsibility as embodied within the Ten Commandments, that ethics are paramount. Where Judaism is different from Christianity is that we believe our lives should be centered upon our lifes and our deeds upon earth, with no reward for our deeds in an afterlife.

By the way, this country would have been impossible without the personal sacrifice of a Jew of his entire fortune so as to support the founding of this country...just one example of many.

____________________________________________


Re:

"Okay people - it's a simple question. Jews are the only major religion in the world who call themselves God's "chosen people". I'm asking a legitimate question for those who know the answer: What are the Jewish people "chosen" to do or be?
"

___

The idea that Jews are the Chosen People of G-d stems from the Bible. Deuteronomy 7:6 describes this relationship. Why was Israel chosen above all peoples is understood within Judaism that it was not G-d that chose, but that Israel chose G-d. This understanding may be found in Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3, which have always been interpreted by Jews as that G-d offred the torah to every nation, and they refused it. G-d then offered the Torah to Isrqael and they accepted it.


Ed
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:39:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 2:41:16 PM EDT by Dino]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Mac,
I'm not Jewish and I find the first part of your post EXTREMELY offensive. Your original thread was locked due to the offensive nature of the post.


Posted by VA-Gunnut
I'm sure you know the rules for posting in this forum?

How about trying to ask the questions you have without trying to belittle the another faith. I suggest you start a new thread, and ask the questions you have without sounding so condescending.



I found this info that contradicts much of your opening rant
Ask Rabbi Simmons about Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife

p.s. please edit your first post, thanks

Well see, there ya go! Was that so hard?


I have several close friends who are Jewish and from each one I've heard everything I posted above - that "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" and there ain't no more after that. No heaven, no hell... all there is is here on earth. That's why the Jews of Jesus' day were so perplexed at the idea that the Messiah was not going to establish a Kingdom on Earth in the traditional, "King David/King Solomon" kind of way they were all expecting. They even mocked Jesus' teachings of the afterlife by questioning him about a woman married to seven men, who's she going to be the wife of in this so-called afterlife he preached about. So many times Jesus had to teach about the Kingdom of Heaven because that was so foreign to the teachings of Judaism before that time.

How many times is "heaven" mentioned in the OT?

I didn't write this thread to sling insults - it's a very legitimate question (and still is, your link notwithstanding) based on my interactions with Jewish people around me.




There are plenty of legitimate questions. Some of the answers depend on what subsect of Judaism someone belongs too. You get the same problem when you ask different Christians questions.

How you ask the question can make all the difference. If your true question was "What do the Jewish people think God chose them to do" you could ask that in one sentence.

It actually took MORE effort to be offensive. It also acts as a barrier to real communication.


Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:40:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:
Mac,
I'm not Jewish and I find the first part of your post EXTREMELY offensive. Your original thread was locked due to the offensive nature of the post.


Posted by VA-Gunnut
I'm sure you know the rules for posting in this forum?

How about trying to ask the questions you have without trying to belittle the another faith. I suggest you start a new thread, and ask the questions you have without sounding so condescending.



I found this info that contradicts much of your opening rant
Ask Rabbi Simmons about Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife



p.s. please edit your first post, thanks





_____________________

Hi Dino!

Actually, these were very good questions! Thanks, as always for being level-headed, though there's many who have never understood the Jewish perspective.

B'Shalom, Dino.

Ed
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:42:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"

Then in that case, why is there little or no emphasis in Judaism on spreading the word, law and protection of God to non-Jews?

If living under God's law is the right thing to do and one of the first lessons of the OT is that we are indeed our brother's keeper, then why don't Jews work to teach non-Jews to become part of the "chosen people"?





I noticed that too with thier way of doing it. My take on it is a free will thing, if you want to be a Jew and be apart of thier way of life then you have to seek it your self. Kinda like the door is open and all you have todo is walk threw it youself. A reverse phsycology type thing. Yet no feelings are hurt if you don't do it.
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:44:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Mac,
I'm not Jewish and I find the first part of your post EXTREMELY offensive. Your original thread was locked due to the offensive nature of the post.


Posted by VA-Gunnut
I'm sure you know the rules for posting in this forum?

How about trying to ask the questions you have without trying to belittle the another faith. I suggest you start a new thread, and ask the questions you have without sounding so condescending.



I found this info that contradicts much of your opening rant
Ask Rabbi Simmons about Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife



p.s. please edit your first post, thanks





_____________________

Hi Dino!

Actually, these were very good questions! Thanks, as always for being level-headed, though there's many who have never understood the Jewish perspective.

B'Shalom, Dino.

Ed



Heya Ed,

this conversation illustrates the fallacy of using the statistics of small samples. Mac has never met a Jew who believed in Heaven and Hell and I have never met a Jew who didn't. Going on limited personal experience can be a bad way to judge entire groups of people.

thanks for clarifying

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:44:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bblake00:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"

Then in that case, why is there little or no emphasis in Judaism on spreading the word, law and protection of God to non-Jews?

If living under God's law is the right thing to do and one of the first lessons of the OT is that we are indeed our brother's keeper, then why don't Jews work to teach non-Jews to become part of the "chosen people"?





I noticed that too with thier way of doing it. My take on it is a free will thing, if you want to be a Jew and be apart of thier way of life then you have to seek it your self. Kinda like the door is open and all you have todo is walk threw it youself. A reverse phsycology type thing. Yet no feelings are hurt if you don't do it.



______________________________

The idea that Jews are the Chosen People of G-d stems from the Bible. Deuteronomy 7:6 describes this relationship. Why was Israel chosen above all peoples is understood within Judaism that it was not G-d that chose, but that Israel chose G-d. This understanding may be found in Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3, which have always been interpreted by Jews as that G-d offred the torah to every nation, and they refused it. G-d then offered the Torah to Isrqael and they accepted it.

Ed


Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:46:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The idea that Jews are the Chosen People of G-d stems from the Bible. Deuteronomy 7:6 describes this relationship. Why was Israel chosen above all peoples is understood within Judaism that it was not G-d that chose, but that Israel chose G-d. This understanding may be found in Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3, which have always been interpreted by Jews as that G-d offred the torah to every nation, and they refused it. G-d then offered the Torah to Isrqael and they accepted it.

Ed

That's interesting.

I'll go do more reading on that. Thank you for helping me understand that relationship more as well as the idea that Jews may have been more active about proselytizing long ago.

I am also interested in the Jewish idea of the afterlife - again, the OT is very sparse in referring to much less emphasizing the afterlife compared to the Christian teachings. The Jewish people I associate with generally discard the idea of the afterlife (and these are pretty "Jewish" Jews).



Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:47:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Mac,
I'm not Jewish and I find the first part of your post EXTREMELY offensive. Your original thread was locked due to the offensive nature of the post.


Posted by VA-Gunnut
I'm sure you know the rules for posting in this forum?

How about trying to ask the questions you have without trying to belittle the another faith. I suggest you start a new thread, and ask the questions you have without sounding so condescending.



I found this info that contradicts much of your opening rant
Ask Rabbi Simmons about Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife



p.s. please edit your first post, thanks





_____________________

Hi Dino!

Actually, these were very good questions! Thanks, as always for being level-headed, though there's many who have never understood the Jewish perspective.

B'Shalom, Dino.

Ed



Heya Ed,

this conversation illustrates the fallacy of using the statistics of small samples. Mac has never met a Jew who believed in Heaven and Hell and I have never met a Jew who didn't. Going on limited personal experience can be a bad way to judge entire groups of people.

thanks for clarifying




______________

Thank you, Dino. Though, as a caveat, where you have two Jews you'll find three opinions...however I've attempted to keep my responses mainstream.

B'Shalom,

Ed


Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:49:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By Dino:
Mac,
I'm not Jewish and I find the first part of your post EXTREMELY offensive. Your original thread was locked due to the offensive nature of the post.


Posted by VA-Gunnut
I'm sure you know the rules for posting in this forum?

How about trying to ask the questions you have without trying to belittle the another faith. I suggest you start a new thread, and ask the questions you have without sounding so condescending.



I found this info that contradicts much of your opening rant
Ask Rabbi Simmons about Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife



p.s. please edit your first post, thanks





_____________________

Hi Dino!

Actually, these were very good questions! Thanks, as always for being level-headed, though there's many who have never understood the Jewish perspective.

B'Shalom, Dino.

Ed

Heya Ed,

this conversation illustrates the fallacy of using the statistics of small samples. Mac has never met a Jew who believed in Heaven and Hell and I have never met a Jew who didn't. Going on limited personal experience can be a bad way to judge entire groups of people.

thanks for clarifying

I understand the fallacy of small samples.

But I was ALSO basing my questions on the OT and how it has almost NOTHING to say about the afterlife, heaven, hell or calls for Jews to spread the word of God.

Link Posted: 9/27/2005 2:51:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The idea that Jews are the Chosen People of G-d stems from the Bible. Deuteronomy 7:6 describes this relationship. Why was Israel chosen above all peoples is understood within Judaism that it was not G-d that chose, but that Israel chose G-d. This understanding may be found in Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3, which have always been interpreted by Jews as that G-d offred the torah to every nation, and they refused it. G-d then offered the Torah to Isrqael and they accepted it.

Ed

That's interesting.

I'll go do more reading on that. Thank you for helping me understand that relationship more as well as the idea that Jews may have been more active about proselytizing long ago.

I am also interested in the Jewish idea of the afterlife - again, the OT is very sparse in referring to much less emphasizing the afterlife compared to the Christian teachings. The Jewish people I associate with generally discard the idea of the afterlife (and these are pretty "Jewish" Jews).






____________________________

There are more interpretations of this, though the idea is the same. Quite simply, any "afterlife" is not a big thing for Jews. Neither have Jews themselves thought that the implication of supposed chosenness implied superior privilages.

Ask most Jews...we'll tell ya...we wish we hadn't been thought of as "chosen".

B'Shalom,

Ed
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:00:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 3:01:38 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The idea that Jews are the Chosen People of G-d stems from the Bible. Deuteronomy 7:6 describes this relationship. Why was Israel chosen above all peoples is understood within Judaism that it was not G-d that chose, but that Israel chose G-d. This understanding may be found in Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3, which have always been interpreted by Jews as that G-d offred the torah to every nation, and they refused it. G-d then offered the Torah to Isrqael and they accepted it.

Ed

That's interesting.

I'll go do more reading on that. Thank you for helping me understand that relationship more as well as the idea that Jews may have been more active about proselytizing long ago.

I am also interested in the Jewish idea of the afterlife - again, the OT is very sparse in referring to much less emphasizing the afterlife compared to the Christian teachings. The Jewish people I associate with generally discard the idea of the afterlife (and these are pretty "Jewish" Jews).

____________________________

There are more interpretations of this, though the idea is the same. Quite simply, any "afterlife" is not a big thing for Jews. Neither have Jews themselves thought that the implication of supposed chosenness implied superior privilages.

Ask most Jews...we'll tell ya...we wish we hadn't been thought of as "chosen".

B'Shalom,

Ed

I understand that - but like any group, I'm sure there are some Jews who erroneously use their identity as a basis to feel superior to others. Happens in Christian, Muslim and probably every religion (and even atheists too).

It was the combination of generally de-emphasizing the afterlife and apparant lack of impetus to spread God's teaching that led me to wonder "then what else is there?" Being "good" can be accomplished WITHOUT being "chosen". So what's the "chosen" all about? Just got me thinking for a while.



Link Posted: 9/27/2005 3:43:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The idea that Jews are the Chosen People of G-d stems from the Bible. Deuteronomy 7:6 describes this relationship. Why was Israel chosen above all peoples is understood within Judaism that it was not G-d that chose, but that Israel chose G-d. This understanding may be found in Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3, which have always been interpreted by Jews as that G-d offred the torah to every nation, and they refused it. G-d then offered the Torah to Isrqael and they accepted it.

Ed

That's interesting.

I'll go do more reading on that. Thank you for helping me understand that relationship more as well as the idea that Jews may have been more active about proselytizing long ago.

I am also interested in the Jewish idea of the afterlife - again, the OT is very sparse in referring to much less emphasizing the afterlife compared to the Christian teachings. The Jewish people I associate with generally discard the idea of the afterlife (and these are pretty "Jewish" Jews).

____________________________

There are more interpretations of this, though the idea is the same. Quite simply, any "afterlife" is not a big thing for Jews. Neither have Jews themselves thought that the implication of supposed chosenness implied superior privilages.

Ask most Jews...we'll tell ya...we wish we hadn't been thought of as "chosen".

B'Shalom,

Ed

I understand that - but like any group, I'm sure there are some Jews who erroneously use their identity as a basis to feel superior to others. Happens in Christian, Muslim and probably every religion (and even atheists too).

It was the combination of generally de-emphasizing the afterlife and apparant lack of impetus to spread God's teaching that led me to wonder "then what else is there?" Being "good" can be accomplished WITHOUT being "chosen". So what's the "chosen" all about? Just got me thinking for a while.






_______________

Re:

"I'm sure there are some Jews who erroneously use their identity as a basis to feel superior to others"

___

Perhaps, as you said, and also pointed-out that other religions may have the perception of this portrayal. That said, I would simply chalk it up to people being up-front...not necessarilly proud, but comfortable with their religious tradition.

Ed
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:10:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:34:33 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:43:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2005 6:44:17 PM EDT by The_Macallan]

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I still find your original post offensive, and against this forums rules. If you really wanted an answer to some questions, why didn't you just ask why Jews do or don't do something? You stated points of critisizm as facts (at least as you know them). This thread should be locked also, but since scuba_ed has decided to take up the discussion, I'll leave it open for now.

Plus, if a thread is locked due to the information contained in it, and you go and repost the same info. That is violation of the CoC, and grounds for your account to be locked. If you are really that unsure of what is or isn't allowed in this forum, you can just send me an IM and ask before posting it. You did send me an IM tonight, and I'm going to respond to it in a minute.


I got your IM.

Thanks for not flushing this thread too.

I honestly wanted to discuss and learn about the concept of "chosen people" in light of what I already know about Judaism.

If my opening statements were too concise to appear as an insult, that was not my intention. I was simply stating facts as I had learned them in a very brief way to set up my main question. No intention at "Jew-bashing" from me at all. I simply stated very concise facts as I understand them and I have absolutely no "anti-jewish" sentiment anywhere in me.

Again, I'm glad this version of the thread was allowed to stay open because ed gave VERY helpful info and gave good points for me to explore and learn from. Based on his answeres, it seems my question is actually quite common and legitimate from an outsider's point of view.

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:15:42 AM EDT
It is not all that complicated.

First, many of the questions you ask are based on the assumption of what the terms mean. Before telling you about Jewish beliefs on Heaven of hell, you have to understand that those concepts that you have about those matters are going to be alien to Jewish concepts. There is no Hell in the Greek/Christian sense in Judaism. Their is a purgatory of sorts, but the stay their is no more than 12 months. As far as Heaven, Again, the concepts are differnt. Plus the Hebrew Bible most everytime speaks of the plural Heavens, and that is a Jewish concept. The soul migrates from level to level, or comes back to this world (Yes we believ in reincarnation) So to say Jews dont believ in an after life is not true. It is just not anything like a Christian or western concept of the afterlife.

Also, an oft asked question,..something to the extent of "If the Jews are so right, why dont they try to convert"...Again, you are looking at it with an assertion of the fact that it would be nessecary for us to do that. There is a very simple answer, The Jews believe in more than one path to G-d. You dont need to be Jewish. What is their to spread? Judaism is the path for Jews, if you are not Jewish, you dont need to be. The Torah always speaks of a convert comming to Join us, never us seeking. Plus the Torah speaks of many non Jews who were rightious. G-d is the G-s of all creation. When Solomon Dedicated THE temple he asked G-d to pay special attention to the offerings of the Gentiles. They did not need to be Jewish, and they could come to the Jewish temple and make their offering.

As far as "Chosen people" well those are the Words of G-d himself, as the joke goes, why couldnt he chose someone else. It all starts with what are called the 10 commandments, They start off stating exactly who G-d is talking to....People who were slaves in Egypt. If your ancestors were not Slaves to Pharoah, well, These laws are not for you. Yet as I stated before, when the Temple was built, Gentiles were not only welcomed but the Jewish King prayed that G-d would pay special attention to their prayers. In Judaism, G-d went to all the nations of the earth and offered them the Torah. When they found out the did not have to take it and by doing so they would be obligated to do a great many things they said no thanks. The Jewish people said yes. So we chose each other. As far as the "What" part....To Build and serve in the Temple is the simple answer.

So in summary

Afterlife...The understanding you have is alien to the Jewish understanding, so the questions you ask are already problamatic because they assume we all agree on the terms.

Speading the message... Dont need to, out truth is for us, we recognize other truths. Again, it is a problem with your question, you ask based on an understanding that just as all other religions claim a strangle hold on the only way so must we.

Chosen for what...To build and serve in the Temple.

So we see, you must not make assertions in your questions when asking about Judasim, or that will have to be overcome first. The western Christiological though that pervades the american culture is rather alien to Jewish thought.

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:19:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"

Then in that case, why is there little or no emphasis in Judaism on spreading the word, law and protection of God to non-Jews?

If living under God's law is the right thing to do and one of the first lessons of the OT is that we are indeed our brother's keeper, then why don't Jews work to teach non-Jews to become part of the "chosen people"?




They don't want converts... you have to be one of the tribe. They like to keep the club exclusive I guess.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:29:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Re:

"And they don't prosyletize or try to convert people to spread their message either."

___

This was not always true. Even in the Christian Gospels it is told that Jews would sail across seas to convert...or words to that effect. In those times, that was quite probably very true, as Jews had established trade routes through much of what is now Europe and the UK...so why not prosyletize?

The Romans were less caring about what a person's religion was as long as they were nice, tax-paying citizens. The Catholic Church made prosyletizing a death sentence for both the prosyletizer and the convertant.



You might want to look into that a little further. The Torah commands us that a prosylitite will come to us. There is a very large differnce between spreading the Noachide faith and trying to get converts to Judaism. During the late second Temple period the Noachide faith was called a "Judaizer" by the romans, and secular roman writers write much about this. When people wish to say the Noachide movement is something new, this very thing is great for proving it has been arounf a while but was once known by a differnt name. The Jews did not seek converts durring this time, Josephus is clear on that as well as others. So either the Christian writtings are in error or they are talking about the practice of spreading the 7 laws of Noah, which was a common practice when the Temple was standing, and is gaining steam again today for the forst time in 1900 years.




Re:

"I just don't understand what the purpose of Judaism is if there is no afterlife and no "personal" God that wants you to be "saved" or bring others to know God. "

___

Judaism, as expressed in the Hebrew Bible, is a core of ethics. The Ten Commandments have influenced many religions. Saved? We believe, as do those who have accepted the responsibility as embodied within the Ten Commandments, that ethics are paramount. Where Judaism is different from Christianity is that we believe our lives should be centered upon our lifes and our deeds upon earth, with no reward for our deeds in an afterlife.





That is about right. As to my previous post, again, we see a problem with the question. The assertion is that man needs to be "Saved" the concepts of Christian Salvation and Jewish Salvation are alien to one another. In the Hebrew Bible Salvation is almost exclusivly physical... I.E. "I cant swim, I need help" not spiritual salvation. In the Hebrew Bible it is clear each and every man will be judged based on his own deeds. And the Law is how we are to live, so the better you keep the Law, the less your judgment will be. And their is nothing eternal about the Judgment you will recieve. So again, we see the concepts are very different.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:35:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

The Jewish people I associate with generally discard the idea of the afterlife (and these are pretty "Jewish" Jews).






What is a pretty "Jewish" Jew, and how can you make that determination? If you see them tomorrow ask them how early the had to get up today for Slichos, If they dont have an answer, they are not what you are getting at when you say "Pretty Jewish Jews"...If they dont even know what you are talking about....They are way off the mark.

Traditional Jews (Pretty Jewish Jews) believe in an afterlife, it is just nothing like western thought(Yours) on the subject.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:45:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

They don't want converts... you have to be one of the tribe. They like to keep the club exclusive I guess.



That could not be further from the truth. While conversion is not easy, It happens, and in Jewish Law we have a double mandate to love the convert moreso than the born Jew. A convert is every bit as much a Jew as a born Jew.

I hear from the white power types all the time the following two things..."They treat converts bad"...Well, These people dont have a clue what they are talking about, mistreating a convert is a very very grevious sin that is not often transgressed. The Second thing is, "They are a race"...Folks, Judaism is a faith not a race. How can you be a race when you allow all people to convert and enter you marriage group? (And they do) As a matter of fact converts are often the most serious when it comes to their Jewish learning, and in the traditional Jewish world, you status as a scholar is about the only thing that counts when it comes to getting a good marriage partner. So as a convert you who is a scholar you stand a chance of getting a spouse from a wealthy or notable family. Hardly locking the converts out or mistreating them as some (Who dont know the first thing about Judaism) would claim.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 1:38:23 AM EDT
I don't see any problem with the original post.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 10:41:07 AM EDT
this is a fantastic thread. Thanks for the jewish input.

Tell us more about what Jews think re: the Temple, please. You mentioned above something about Jews existing or being "for" keeping the law and taking care of the Temple.

Since "we" christians only believe in a single God thanks to the Jews, and the Temple was HIS Temple, it's a pretty big deal that it's been gone for so long. What do Jews think about the lack of a place to worship "G-d"; is there some alternative they hold to or must that be the place for them to fulfill the law?

Just curious. Thanks in advance for answers, and pardon if the questions are misguided. Not trying to do anything other than learn what Jews think about these issues.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 11:29:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I still find your original post offensive, and against this forums rules. If you really wanted an answer to some questions, why didn't you just ask why Jews do or don't do something? You stated points of critisizm as facts (at least as you know them). This thread should be locked also, but since scuba_ed has decided to take up the discussion, I'll leave it open for now.

Plus, if a thread is locked due to the information contained in it, and you go and repost the same info. That is violation of the CoC, and grounds for your account to be locked. If you are really that unsure of what is or isn't allowed in this forum, you can just send me an IM and ask before posting it. You did send me an IM tonight, and I'm going to respond to it in a minute.




____________________________________

Actually, VA-gunnut, I would suspect that most Jews who will respond to this thread will in fact not find it offensive as many in the Jewish community are aware that many non-Jewish people have a limited knowledge of Judaism, much less actually having been exposed to a Jew.

The questions asked were sound; the poster himself responded favorably to answers.

This has been, in my opinion, a valid discussion thread. No slams, no finger-pointing; nothing derisive.

B'Shalom,

Ed
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 11:33:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"

Then in that case, why is there little or no emphasis in Judaism on spreading the word, law and protection of God to non-Jews?

If living under God's law is the right thing to do and one of the first lessons of the OT is that we are indeed our brother's keeper, then why don't Jews work to teach non-Jews to become part of the "chosen people"?




They don't want converts... you have to be one of the tribe. They like to keep the club exclusive I guess.



_______________________

Not so, as converts are accepted by Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jewish Congregations. The State of Israel accepts Conservative and Reform conversions in the U.S.A. as valid under Israel's "Law of Return".

Ed
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 11:46:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"

Then in that case, why is there little or no emphasis in Judaism on spreading the word, law and protection of God to non-Jews?

If living under God's law is the right thing to do and one of the first lessons of the OT is that we are indeed our brother's keeper, then why don't Jews work to teach non-Jews to become part of the "chosen people"?




They don't want converts... you have to be one of the tribe. They like to keep the club exclusive I guess.



_______________________

Not so, as converts are accepted by Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jewish Congregations. The State of Israel accepts Conservative and Reform conversions in the U.S.A. as valid under Israel's "Law of Return".

Ed



Just for clarification does that mean Isreal does not accept Orthodox conversions in the USA for the "Law of Return"

Just curious..
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 11:54:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 1:22:23 PM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Re:

"And they don't prosyletize or try to convert people to spread their message either."

___

This was not always true. Even in the Christian Gospels it is told that Jews would sail across seas to convert...or words to that effect. In those times, that was quite probably very true, as Jews had established trade routes through much of what is now Europe and the UK...so why not prosyletize?

The Romans were less caring about what a person's religion was as long as they were nice, tax-paying citizens. The Catholic Church made prosyletizing a death sentence for both the prosyletizer and the convertant.



You might want to look into that a little further. The Torah commands us that a prosylitite will come to us. There is a very large differnce between spreading the Noachide faith and trying to get converts to Judaism. During the late second Temple period the Noachide faith was called a "Judaizer" by the romans, and secular roman writers write much about this. When people wish to say the Noachide movement is something new, this very thing is great for proving it has been arounf a while but was once known by a differnt name. The Jews did not seek converts durring this time, Josephus is clear on that as well as others. So either the Christian writtings are in error or they are talking about the practice of spreading the 7 laws of Noah, which was a common practice when the Temple was standing, and is gaining steam again today for the forst time in 1900 years.




Re:

"I just don't understand what the purpose of Judaism is if there is no afterlife and no "personal" God that wants you to be "saved" or bring others to know God. "

___

Judaism, as expressed in the Hebrew Bible, is a core of ethics. The Ten Commandments have influenced many religions. Saved? We believe, as do those who have accepted the responsibility as embodied within the Ten Commandments, that ethics are paramount. Where Judaism is different from Christianity is that we believe our lives should be centered upon our lifes and our deeds upon earth, with no reward for our deeds in an afterlife.





That is about right. As to my previous post, again, we see a problem with the question. The assertion is that man needs to be "Saved" the concepts of Christian Salvation and Jewish Salvation are alien to one another. In the Hebrew Bible Salvation is almost exclusivly physical... I.E. "I cant swim, I need help" not spiritual salvation. In the Hebrew Bible it is clear each and every man will be judged based on his own deeds. And the Law is how we are to live, so the better you keep the Law, the less your judgment will be. And their is nothing eternal about the Judgment you will recieve. So again, we see the concepts are very different.



______________

Re:

"You might want to look into that a little further. The Torah commands us that a prosylitite will come to us. There is a very large differnce between spreading the Noachide faith and trying to get converts to Judaism. During the late second Temple period the Noachide faith was called a "Judaizer" by the romans, and secular roman writers write much about this. When people wish to say the Noachide movement is something new, this very thing is great for proving it has been arounf a while but was once known by a differnt name. The Jews did not seek converts durring this time, Josephus is clear on that as well as others. So either the Christian writtings are in error or they are talking about the practice of spreading the 7 laws of Noah, which was a common practice when the Temple was standing, and is gaining steam again today for the forst time in 1900 years."

___

In fact, conversion to the Jewish faith is first mentioned in the Book of Ruth. So openly did Jews accept converts that there was no question as to the Jewishness of King David, a decendant through Ruth.

Also, the fact is that Jews actively sought converts in pre-Christian times and for the first several centuries of the common era, and there were many converts to Judaism. When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, conversion to Judaism and the seeking of Judaism were forbidden upon penalty of death.

I believe that in the Christian bible, Mathew 23:15 refers to Jewish proselytizing. This referance indicates that Jews of this period were not only willing to make converts but actively sought so. Whether or not Mathew 23:15 is an authentic saying of Jesus, it clearly establishes the prevalence of Jewish missionary activity at this period.

Secondly, the story is told in the Talmud of a non-Jew who approached Hillel and offered to convert to Judaism if Hillel could teach him all of Judaim while the non-Jew stood on one foot. Hillel responded: "What is hurtful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary. Now go and study." From this we learn several things. First, in every age there have been people who sought to become part of the Jewish people. Second, we learn that study is an important part of Judaism. We also learn that we are to meet with seriousness and with openness those who seek to learn about Judaism.

The medieval Jewish view of conversion varied. A positive view was expressed in the letter to Ovadia the proselyte, written by Moses Maimonides, the great twelfth-century thinker. This letter was a response to a question posed by a convert, asking if it was permissable for him to recite those prayers that begin "Our G-d and G-d of our fathers" since his ancestors were not Jews. Maimonides answered that it was perfectly appropriate because every proselyte is considered a spiritual decendant of Abraham, the first Jew.

I could provided additional supplimentary records to show that in every age, people have explored Judaism, many with the goal of ultimately converting to Judaism. It has happened from our ancient past to this day.

Re:

"The Torah commands us that a prosylitite will come to us. There is a very large differnce between spreading the Noachide faith and trying to get converts to Judaism"

Please direct me to that reference, as the only one that sticks in my mind is Ruth 1:16-17: "...your people shall be my people, and your G-d my G-d..." which led to Ruth to becoming a Jew. I suspect you are referring to a Talmudic reference...not a passage from the Torah.

Thanks!

B'Shalom,

Ed

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 11:57:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By maddog_enigma:
I don't see any problem with the original post.



__________________________

Thank you...I believe your assessment is correct. I'm Jewish and took no hurt from an honest set of questions.

B'Shalom,

Ed
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:06:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:
It is not all that complicated.

First, many of the questions you ask are based on the assumption of what the terms mean. Before telling you about Jewish beliefs on Heaven of hell, you have to understand that those concepts that you have about those matters are going to be alien to Jewish concepts. There is no Hell in the Greek/Christian sense in Judaism. Their is a purgatory of sorts, but the stay their is no more than 12 months. As far as Heaven, Again, the concepts are differnt. Plus the Hebrew Bible most everytime speaks of the plural Heavens, and that is a Jewish concept. The soul migrates from level to level, or comes back to this world (Yes we believ in reincarnation) So to say Jews dont believ in an after life is not true. It is just not anything like a Christian or western concept of the afterlife.

Also, an oft asked question,..something to the extent of "If the Jews are so right, why dont they try to convert"...Again, you are looking at it with an assertion of the fact that it would be nessecary for us to do that. There is a very simple answer, The Jews believe in more than one path to G-d. You dont need to be Jewish. What is their to spread? Judaism is the path for Jews, if you are not Jewish, you dont need to be. The Torah always speaks of a convert comming to Join us, never us seeking. Plus the Torah speaks of many non Jews who were rightious. G-d is the G-s of all creation. When Solomon Dedicated THE temple he asked G-d to pay special attention to the offerings of the Gentiles. They did not need to be Jewish, and they could come to the Jewish temple and make their offering.

As far as "Chosen people" well those are the Words of G-d himself, as the joke goes, why couldnt he chose someone else. It all starts with what are called the 10 commandments, They start off stating exactly who G-d is talking to....People who were slaves in Egypt. If your ancestors were not Slaves to Pharoah, well, These laws are not for you. Yet as I stated before, when the Temple was built, Gentiles were not only welcomed but the Jewish King prayed that G-d would pay special attention to their prayers. In Judaism, G-d went to all the nations of the earth and offered them the Torah. When they found out the did not have to take it and by doing so they would be obligated to do a great many things they said no thanks. The Jewish people said yes. So we chose each other. As far as the "What" part....To Build and serve in the Temple is the simple answer.

So in summary

Afterlife...The understanding you have is alien to the Jewish understanding, so the questions you ask are already problamatic because they assume we all agree on the terms.

Speading the message... Dont need to, out truth is for us, we recognize other truths. Again, it is a problem with your question, you ask based on an understanding that just as all other religions claim a strangle hold on the only way so must we.

Chosen for what...To build and serve in the Temple.

So we see, you must not make assertions in your questions when asking about Judasim, or that will have to be overcome first. The western Christiological though that pervades the american culture is rather alien to Jewish thought.

Very interesting and enlightening response. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

The teaching of various "levels" of heaven(s) is interesting in that it reminds me of Jesus telling his disciples of the House of God having "many rooms" and that Jesus was to go and prepare a place for us.

Also the idea of the Temple has always made for interesting thought given the current "residents" of the Temple Mount area.


Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:22:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 12:24:39 PM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
this is a fantastic thread. Thanks for the jewish input.

Tell us more about what Jews think re: the Temple, please. You mentioned above something about Jews existing or being "for" keeping the law and taking care of the Temple.

Since "we" christians only believe in a single God thanks to the Jews, and the Temple was HIS Temple, it's a pretty big deal that it's been gone for so long. What do Jews think about the lack of a place to worship "G-d"; is there some alternative they hold to or must that be the place for them to fulfill the law?

Just curious. Thanks in advance for answers, and pardon if the questions are misguided. Not trying to do anything other than learn what Jews think about these issues.



_________________

Re:

The Second Temple.

First, let me start with...there will never be a Third Temple; that simply isn't part of Judaism anymore, and may have been the crux of your question.

The Second Temple was destroyed, as you know, during the Second Jewish revolt against Rome in the year 70. Both Temples served as a way to interact through priests as did the Jews who wandered the desert for 40-yrs., with the Levites responsible for transporting the "Temple". G-d is reported to have spoken to and directed the Jews and their travels with this format, if you will.

During this time, and into the Second Temple era, the Temple continued as a way to interact with G-d. Sacrifices where made...some where for sin, others were for well-being. Both animal and vegetable sacrifices were made. As the Levites had no portion in the land of Israel, they and their families were sustained by many of the offerings bought to the Temple--though never that of a sin-offering.

When the Second Temple was destroyed, Jews had already in their posession a way to survive as Jews. This they had learned from the destruction of the First Temple and subsequent exile to Babylon. That time, dating ~ 586 C.E., is often referred to as the beginning of the Rabbinic era.

During this period, which served as a model of Jewish worship after the destruction of the Second Temple, Jews continued and refined a similar worship as during the times of the Temples, though without sacrifice.

Re:

What do Jews think about the lack of a place to worship "G-d"; is there some alternative they hold to or must that be the place for them to fulfill the law?

The law may be expressed simply by Hosea 6:6, while speaking in the name of G-d, stated "For I desire kindness, not sacrifice."

B'Shalom

(In Peace)

Ed
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:51:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By glockguy40:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Originally Posted By bblake00:
Back in the day it prolley ment something, but I'm not sure what.

Maybe chosen to live under "Gods" law. And the ones that do not don't have the protection of the rest of their society and "laws"

Then in that case, why is there little or no emphasis in Judaism on spreading the word, law and protection of God to non-Jews?

If living under God's law is the right thing to do and one of the first lessons of the OT is that we are indeed our brother's keeper, then why don't Jews work to teach non-Jews to become part of the "chosen people"?




They don't want converts... you have to be one of the tribe. They like to keep the club exclusive I guess.



_______________________

Not so, as converts are accepted by Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jewish Congregations. The State of Israel accepts Conservative and Reform conversions in the U.S.A. as valid under Israel's "Law of Return".

Ed



Just for clarification does that mean Isreal does not accept Orthodox conversions in the USA for the "Law of Return"

Just curious..



____

You caught me! Thanks...Orthodox conversions are also recognized.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 12:56:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
this is a fantastic thread. Thanks for the jewish input.

Re:

Just curious. Thanks in advance for answers, and pardon if the questions are misguided. Not trying to do anything other than learn what Jews think about these issues.

___

Thank you JusAdBellum, that was my thought too when entering this thread...unfortunately The Moderator has seemingly awoken from a slumber, and now is exerting a presence in a benign thread when he should have been more aware of previous "sniping" threads.

B'Shalom, JusAdBellum

(In Peace)

Ed


Link Posted: 9/28/2005 1:16:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 1:18:51 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 1:26:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:


The questions asked were sound; the poster himself responded favorably to answers.

This has been, in my opinion, a valid discussion thread. No slams, no finger-pointing; nothing derisive.

B'Shalom,

Ed



Agreed, that is why I left the thread unlocked when I saw it had been reposted. I'm glad that the thread worked out for the best.


ETA: I guess I should of read your last post, before responding to this one.



___

And that would have made a difference? If so, why?

Ed
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 1:51:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

___

In fact, conversion to the Jewish faith is first mentioned in the Book of Ruth. So openly did Jews accept converts that there was no question as to the Jewishness of King David, a decendant through Ruth.

Also, the fact is that Jews actively sought converts in pre-Christian times and for the first several centuries of the common era, and there were many converts to Judaism. When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, conversion to Judaism and the seeking of Judaism were forbidden upon penalty of death.

I believe that in the Christian bible, Mathew 23:15 refers to Jewish proselytizing. This referance indicates that Jews of this period were not only willing to make converts but actively sought so. Whether or not Mathew 23:15 is an authentic saying of Jesus, it clearly establishes the prevalence of Jewish missionary activity at this period.

Secondly, the story is told in the Talmud of a non-Jew who approached Hillel and offered to convert to Judaism if Hillel could teach him all of Judaim while the non-Jew stood on one foot. Hillel responded: "What is hurtful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary. Now go and study." From this we learn several things. First, in every age there have been people who sought to become part of the Jewish people. Second, we learn that study is an important part of Judaism. We also learn that we are to meet with seriousness and with openness those who seek to learn about Judaism.

The medieval Jewish view of conversion varied. A positive view was expressed in the letter to Ovadia the proselyte, written by Moses Maimonides, the great twelfth-century thinker. This letter was a response to a question posed by a convert, asking if it was permissable for him to recite those prayers that begin "Our G-d and G-d of our fathers" since his ancestors were not Jews. Maimonides answered that it was perfectly appropriate because every proselyte is considered a spiritual decendant of Abraham, the first Jew.

I could provided additional supplimentary records to show that in every age, people have explored Judaism, many with the goal of ultimately converting to Judaism. It has happened from our ancient past to this day.

Re:

"The Torah commands us that a prosylitite will come to us. There is a very large differnce between spreading the Noachide faith and trying to get converts to Judaism"

Please direct me to that reference, as the only one that sticks in my mind is Ruth 1:16-17: "...your people shall be my people, and your G-d my G-d..." which led to Ruth to becoming a Jew. I suspect you are referring to a Talmudic reference...not a passage from the Torah.

Thanks!

B'Shalom,

Ed




Nobody is arguing that people seek out Judaism and convert to Judaism. Not only does this happen and always has, but Jews are mandated to allow it to happen. I have not stated anything other than that. The examples you use illustrate the point that THEY, the convert seek out Judaism not the other way around.

AS for a Torah verse, There are two, but all I can think of now is Leviticus 19 32, 33. They are very clear in when the "Ger" (prosylitite) comes to join you. (Under his own will)... The Hebrew Scriptures always speak of the act of conversion as an action taken by the convert.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:01:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Re:

The Second Temple.

First, let me start with...there will never be a Third Temple; that simply isn't part of Judaism anymore, and may have been the crux of your question.



This is not a true statement. As a matter of fact it is blatent in nature. One of the most central themes of Traditional Judaism is the building of the Third Temple. I dont know how to state that in any more clear or simple terms. It is 100% universal in Traditional Judaism. Scuba, I dont know where you could have possible got such an idea.

You can find hundreds of authorative Jewish sites on the matter, but here is just one from a secular source. Orthodox Judaism is Traditional Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem

Orthodox Judaism
Orthodox Judaism believes and expects that the Temple will be rebuilt and that the sacrificial services, known as the korbanot will once again be practiced with the rebuilding of a Third Temple. The article on korbanot outlines many of the references. See the section about prayers calling for the restoration of the Temple.

[edit]
Conservative Judaism
Conservative Judaism has modified the prayers; their prayerbooks call for the restoration of Temple, but do not ask for resumption of animal sacrifices. Most of the passages relating to sacrifices are replaced with the Talmudic teaching that deeds of loving-kindness now atone for sin. In the central prayer, the Amidah, the Hebrew phrase na'ase ve'nakriv (we will present and sacrifice) is modified to read to asu ve'hikrivu (they presented and sacrificed), implying that animal sacrifices are a thing of the past. The petition to accept the "fire offerings of Israel" is removed.

[edit]
Reform Judaism
Reform Judaism calls neither for the resumption of sacrifices nor the rebuilding of the Temple, although some new Reform prayerbooks are moving towards calling for the latter as an option



Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:07:27 PM EDT
As far as Reformed or Conservative conversions qualifying for the "Right of Return" in Israel, this is rather new and if religious factions ever get into power this will be the 1st law they take off the books.

With a Reformed or Conservative conversion you will not be counted in Traditional Jewish services, You are not allowed to participate, nor would you be allowed to marry a traditional Jew.
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:16:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
this is a fantastic thread. Thanks for the jewish input.

Tell us more about what Jews think re: the Temple, please. You mentioned above something about Jews existing or being "for" keeping the law and taking care of the Temple.

Since "we" christians only believe in a single God thanks to the Jews, and the Temple was HIS Temple, it's a pretty big deal that it's been gone for so long. What do Jews think about the lack of a place to worship "G-d"; is there some alternative they hold to or must that be the place for them to fulfill the law?

Just curious. Thanks in advance for answers, and pardon if the questions are misguided. Not trying to do anything other than learn what Jews think about these issues.



Again, because of a fundamental difference in Ideas, the question is the problem. Acording to Christianity, the Temple was a "Big Deal" and only Blood can atone for a sin, thus without a Temple how do the Jews "Fullfil" the Law. This stance assumes that a problem exists that must be solved. You have created a curcumstance that is alien to Judaism and then asked how do we solve that problem.

In Judaism there are MANY ways to attone for sins, and a Blood sacrifice only attoned for one thing and it was not the only way to attone for this...and "Cheit" or a sin that is committed unitentionaly.


Other ways to atone for sin...

· Exodus 30.12 - Charity can provide atonement for the soul.

· Exodus 30.15-16 - Money can make atonement for the soul.

· Leviticus 5.11-13 - Flour can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 14.19-20 - Prayer can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 31.50 - Jewelry can make atonement for the soul.

· Isaiah 27.9 - Breaking alters to idolatry can make atonement.

· Jeremiah 36.3 - Turning from evil can make atonement for the soul.

· Hosea 6.6 - Obedience can make atonement for the soul.

We also have a case pecident that we can do without the Temple. The Jewish people had no Temple for a great many years between the 1st and Second Temples.

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:47:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Re:

The Second Temple.

First, let me start with...there will never be a Third Temple; that simply isn't part of Judaism anymore, and may have been the crux of your question.



This is not a true statement. As a matter of fact it is blatent in nature. One of the most central themes of Traditional Judaism is the building of the Third Temple. I dont know how to state that in any more clear or simple terms. It is 100% universal in Traditional Judaism. Scuba, I dont know where you could have possible got such an idea.

You can find hundreds of authorative Jewish sites on the matter, but here is just one from a secular source. Orthodox Judaism is Traditional Judaism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem

Orthodox Judaism
Orthodox Judaism believes and expects that the Temple will be rebuilt and that the sacrificial services, known as the korbanot will once again be practiced with the rebuilding of a Third Temple. The article on korbanot outlines many of the references. See the section about prayers calling for the restoration of the Temple.

[edit]
Conservative Judaism
Conservative Judaism has modified the prayers; their prayerbooks call for the restoration of Temple, but do not ask for resumption of animal sacrifices. Most of the passages relating to sacrifices are replaced with the Talmudic teaching that deeds of loving-kindness now atone for sin. In the central prayer, the Amidah, the Hebrew phrase na'ase ve'nakriv (we will present and sacrifice) is modified to read to asu ve'hikrivu (they presented and sacrificed), implying that animal sacrifices are a thing of the past. The petition to accept the "fire offerings of Israel" is removed.

[edit]
Reform Judaism
Reform Judaism calls neither for the resumption of sacrifices nor the rebuilding of the Temple, although some new Reform prayerbooks are moving towards calling for the latter as an option






________________________

Very eloquent, and yet misguided. It's said that Jerusalem fell with the destruction of the Second Temple not because of fighting the Romans, but of fighting internal issues.

Thus, you propogate divisiveness.

For those reading this thread, here are some references. More info. may be found at:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Temple-in-Jerusalem#Orthodox_Judaism

________________________

Today's Judaism is mainly the Rabbinic Judaism already mentioned, without altar nor sacrifice nor priests, and the religious observance takes place both at home and in the synagogue.

Three main groups in the USA who vary in their interpretation of those parts of the Torah that deal with personal, communal, international, and religious activities:

1- The Orthodox community:
It views the Torah as derived from God, and therefore absolutely binding. This the oldest, most conservative, and most diverse form of Judaism. Modern Orthodox, Chasidim and Ultra Orthodox share a basic belief in the derivation of Jewish law, even as they hold very different outlooks on life. They attempt to follow the original form of Judaism as they view it to be. They look upon every word in their sacred texts as being divinely inspired.
The "whole Torah" includes both the Written Torah (the first five books of the Bible) and the Oral Torah, an oral tradition interpreting and explaining the Written Torah. They believe that the Torah contains 613 mitzvot binding upon Jews but not upon non-Jews.
An excellent summary of the core beliefs of Orthodox Judaism may be found in the Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith.
Orthodoxy is actually made up of several different groups:
- It includes the modern Orthodox, who have largely integrated into modern society while maintaining observance of halakhah (Jewish Law).
- The Chasidim, who live separately and dress distinctively (commonly, but erroneously, referred to in the media as the "ultra-Orthodox").
- And the Yeshivish Orthodox, who are neither Chasidic nor modern.
- Modern Orthodoxy, championed by Samson R. Hirsch in opposition to the Reformers, sought a blend of traditional Judaism and modern learning.
The 1990 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS) performed by the Council of Jewish Federations found that 7% of the Jews in America identify themselves as Orthodox.

Among the synagogue organizations are the Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations and Young Israel ("modern" Orthodox) and Agudas Israel; among the rabbinical groups, the Rabbinical Council of America ("modern") and the Rabbinical Alliance of America; among the rabbinical schools, Isaac Elchanan Seminary at Yeshiva University and the Hebrew Theological College ("modern") in Skokie, Illinois, and numerous small European-type yeshivas (talmudic academies). The Synagogue Council of America is a forum for discussion and joint action among these movements.

Chasidim and Mitnagdim:
In the 1700s, the first of the modern movements developed in Eastern Europe. This movement, known as Chasidism, was founded by Israel ben Eliezer, more commonly known as the Baal Shem Tov or the Besht. Before Chasidism, Judaism emphasized education as the way to get closer to G-d. Chasidism emphasized other, more personal experiences and mysticism as alternative routes to G-d.
Chasidism was considered a radical movement at the time it was founded. There was strong opposition from the mitnagdim (opponents). Today, the Chasidim and the mitnagdim are relatively unified
Chasidic sects are organized around a spiritual leader called a Rebbe or a tzaddik, a person who is considered to be more enlightened than other Jews. A Chasid consults his Rebbe about all major life decisions.
Chasidism continues to be a vital movement throughout the world. The Lubavitcher Chasidim are very vocal with a high media presence (see their website, Chabad-Lubavitch in Cyberspace), but there are many other active Chasidic sects today. For a simple, plain English introduction to Chasidism written by a modern Breslover Chasid, check out this FAQ on Hasidic Culture and Customs.

___________________

What wasn't clear in your post neshomamench was if your Orthodoxy is the same as the Orthodoxy in Israel...the Orthodox who live off of the taxes of Israelis while not participating...who are indeed have exclusion from ALL IDF military service.

For readers of this thread, here are some differences between Orthodox (actually Ultra-Orthodox given that a Jew would actually desire to return to the sacrificial system) and Conservative and Reform Jewish traditions.

Source for the following:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/10-Reform/section-47.html

______________________________

Question 18.5.2: Traditional Judaism Differences: What other changes to liturgy reflect Reform ideals?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Answer:

The Reform Movement has repeatedly revised the traditional liturgy, in
order to shorten the service by dispensing with some of the
repetitions (for example, there is only one reader's Kaddish), and to
bring the doctrinal content of the liturgy into accord with Reform
thought by omitting or recasting passages expressive of beliefs that
are not part of Reform (e.g., a personal Messiah as distinct from a
messianic age, ressurection of the dead, restoration of the
sacrificial cult, and the existance of angels).

As an example of this, consider the Shema and Tefillah. Traditionally,
the Shema consists of three Scriptural passages: Deut. 6.4-9, Deut.
11.13-21, and Num. 15:37-41. In Reform siddurs, the second paragraph
is often omitted because of the doctrine of retribution, and the third
because of the commandment regarding fringes. Reform does include Num.
15.40f. With respect to the Tefillah, there are more significant
changes. The Tefillah traditionally consists of 18 benedictions, to
which, perhaps in the 2nd or 3rd century CE, a 19th was added. It can
be broken into three parts: the first three benedictions, an
intermediate thirteen benedictions, and a final three benedictions.
These are traditionally said three times daily, and appear (in a
modified form) in the weekday service in the Reform siddur (although
most Reform congregations do not hold weekday services, there are
congregations and study groups that do, and hence, a service is
provided for them). On Shabbat and on festivals, only the first three
and the last three are said; the intermediate benedictions are
replaced by ones peculiar to the appropriate day.

First Grouping:

1.
The first benediction, Ancestors/Avot, is retained mostly
unchanged, except for referring to our fathers and our mothers.
Most Reform siddurs change the text to read "redemption"
instead of "a redeemer.". A recent trend has been to include
Sarah, Leah, Rachel, and Rebecca in addition to Abraham, Isaac,
and Jacob. This goes with the egalitarian nature of Reform.

2.
The second benediction, Powers/Gevurot, is amended to affirm
that God is the source of all life, and that God has implanted
within us eternal life. Traditionally, the main theme of this
benediction was resurrection of the dead, a doctrine not
accepted by Reform Judaism. These words were expressed in the
traditional siddur as "...and revivest the dead with great
mercy..". In the Reform prayerbook, this is changed to "...with
great compassion give life to all."

3.
The third benediction, Holiness of God/Kedushat Hashem, has
also been changed slightly. The Hebrew that might more
literally be rendered as "holy beings" (angels) has been
changed to "those who strive to be holy".

Intermediate Benedictions:

1-4.
The first (Understanding/Binah), second (Repentence/Teshuvah),
third (Forgiveness/Selichah), and fourth (Redemption/Ge-u-lah)
of the thirteen intermediate benedictions are retained,
although they are rendered in a gender-neutral language (that
is, God is referred to as a Soverign or a Ruler, as contrasted
to a Father or a King).

5.
The fifth intermediate benediction, Healing/Refuah, is changed
slightly. The traditional "who heals the sick of His people
Israel" is changed to "Healer of the sick", a potentially older
version found in J. Ber. 2.4 and Sifrei to Deut. 33.2. The
change was made because the older version is more
comprehensive.

6.
The sixth intermediate benediction, Blessing of the Years
(Abundance)/Birkat Hashanim, is also changed slightly: one
phrase ("Bless our year like other years") is omitted.

7.
The seventh intermediate benediction, Ingathering of the
Exiles/Kibbuts Galuyot, is rewritten. The Reform version begins
the same way as the traditional text, but in place of the
petition for the ingathering of the exiles goes on to emphasize
the hope for universal freedom. Thus, "...bring our exiles
together and assemble us from the four courners of the
earth..." becomes "...inspire us to strive for the liberation
of the oppressed, and let the song of liberty be heard in the
four corners of the earth..."

8.
The eight intermediate benediction, Justice/Birkat Mishpat, is
also rewritten. The first half, which traditionally voices the
hope for the restoration of Israel's judges, is reworded to
express the hope for universal justice (based on passages such
as Isa 40.23; Ps. 148.11; Joel 3.1; Zech 12.10, and so on). The
second half is almost identical with the traditional.

9.
The ninth intermediate benediction, a malediction against
slanderers or informers (originally heretics), is omitted.

10.
The tenth (traditional, ninth in Reform) intermediate
benediction, Blessing for the Righteous/Birkat Hatsadikim, is
abridged (i.e., "...upon the righteous and faithful of all
peoples, and upon all of us.")

11.
The eleventh (traditional, tenth in Reform) intermediate
benediction, Builder of Jerusalem/Bonei Yerushalayim, is
rewritten. Traditionally, this benediction beseeches God to
rebuild Jerusalem and to reestablish the Davidic monarchy.
Partly for doctrinal reasons, and partly because the
traditional theme is repeated by the subsequent benediction,
the Reform version is altered to be a prayer for the present
and continuing welfare of the land and people of Israel. The
Reform version also contains an allusion to the connection
between Zion and the messianic hope, expressed by a reference
to Zion and Jerusalem as the source of enlightenment to all
humanity.

12.
The twelfth (traditional, eleventh in Reform) intermediate
benediction, Blessing concerning David, Birkat David, is also
rewritten. In the Reform version, the hope for restoration of
the Davidic commonwealth is broadened into a concept of a
Messianic Age.

13.
The thirteenth (traditional, twelfth in Reform) intermediate
benediction, Who Harkens to Prayer/Shomei-a Tefillah, is
abridged.

Final three benedictions:

1.
The first of the last three benedictions, Worship/Avodah, is
modified. The traditional references to sacrificial worship are
omitted; instead, a throught on the theme of God's nearness to
all who seek God with sincerity is used.

2.
The second of the last three benedictions,
Thanksgiving/Hoda-ah, uses the complete text, but is rendered
in a gender-neutral fashion.

3.
The last of the three benedictions, the Priestly
Benediction/Birkat Kohanim, is retained relatively unchanged
from the traditional version, although some of the translations
are more freely done.

____

Ed
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 2:53:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2005 3:01:54 PM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By neshomamench:

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
this is a fantastic thread. Thanks for the jewish input.

Tell us more about what Jews think re: the Temple, please. You mentioned above something about Jews existing or being "for" keeping the law and taking care of the Temple.

Since "we" christians only believe in a single God thanks to the Jews, and the Temple was HIS Temple, it's a pretty big deal that it's been gone for so long. What do Jews think about the lack of a place to worship "G-d"; is there some alternative they hold to or must that be the place for them to fulfill the law?

Just curious. Thanks in advance for answers, and pardon if the questions are misguided. Not trying to do anything other than learn what Jews think about these issues.



Again, because of a fundamental difference in Ideas, the question is the problem. Acording to Christianity, the Temple was a "Big Deal" and only Blood can atone for a sin, thus without a Temple how do the Jews "Fullfil" the Law. This stance assumes that a problem exists that must be solved. You have created a curcumstance that is alien to Judaism and then asked how do we solve that problem.

In Judaism there are MANY ways to attone for sins, and a Blood sacrifice only attoned for one thing and it was not the only way to attone for this...and "Cheit" or a sin that is committed unitentionaly.


Other ways to atone for sin...

· Exodus 30.12 - Charity can provide atonement for the soul.

· Exodus 30.15-16 - Money can make atonement for the soul.

· Leviticus 5.11-13 - Flour can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 14.19-20 - Prayer can make atonement for the soul.

· Numbers 31.50 - Jewelry can make atonement for the soul.

· Isaiah 27.9 - Breaking alters to idolatry can make atonement.

· Jeremiah 36.3 - Turning from evil can make atonement for the soul.

· Hosea 6.6 - Obedience can make atonement for the soul.

We also have a case pecident that we can do without the Temple. The Jewish people had no Temple for a great many years between the 1st and Second Temples.




_________________________

neshomamench...the root of "Cheit" comes from an archery term to have missed the mark. By so also (though without the "Cheit" association with sin) with your comment that "We also have a case pecident that we can do without the Temple. The Jewish people had no Temple for a great many years between the 1st and Second Temples. "

I made that earlier reference, as normative Judaism does not believe in any aspect of the Temple sacrificial system.

You made Biblical references to what can make atonement for the soul, though I believe you missed the point, or mark if you will.

People of all faiths reach atonement for their sins when...they no longer commit them.


B'Shalom,

Ed
Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:04:28 PM EDT
Scuba, you made a very simple statement, that the idea third Temple is not part of Judaism today. All I did was state it was infact one of the most fundemental ideas of Judaism today. With references to back it up.

You did not address this in anyway but instead sought to explain problems and differnences within orthodoxy.

You are not Orthodox, I am. Those on the outside looking in dont understand. If you really think there is such a thing as "Orthodox" and "Ultra Orthodox" you have little to no understanding of it.

Do not EVER confuse someones level of observance with their religious Lable...I.E. Hassidic, Yeshivish, Modern orthodox, Ect.... In Isreal, and in much of the world, besides the United States, Everyone is Orthodox. Now again, dont confuse the term with level of observance. In Israel, even a Secular person would do Jewish things in an orthodox manner when they did Jewish things.

Let me sum it up for you. For the most part all Jews who follow a Traditional(Orthodox) path are the same. Where they come from and some customs may be different as well as the style of leadership they have. Other than that, Orthodoxy is orthodoxy.

Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:13:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:
As far as Reformed or Conservative conversions qualifying for the "Right of Return" in Israel, this is rather new and if religious factions ever get into power this will be the 1st law they take off the books.

With a Reformed or Conservative conversion you will not be counted in Traditional Jewish services, You are not allowed to participate, nor would you be allowed to marry a traditional Jew.



_______________

Re:

"As far as Reformed or Conservative conversions qualifying for the "Right of Return" in Israel, this is rather new and if religious factions ever get into power this will be the 1st law they take off the books. "

___

In truth, sects of what are commonly referred to as "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" have been pariahs upon the State of Israel for decades. That is changing.

The stipends that had been given to such groups for housing, food, etc. at the expense of non-"Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" who joined the IDF without the exclusion the "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" enjoyed are nearly at an end.

And, given that, and also that more money is contributed to The State of Israel by non-"Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" groups...that is unlikely to change.

One last important note that such opinions of the "Ultra-Orthodox" or "Orthodox" espouse when in reference to the building of the Third Temple...and that is that these groups also do not recognize that the State of Isreael has a right to exist until the Moshiach (Savior) returns, at which point, and only then, may the Third Temple be rebuilt.


Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:15:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

neshomamench...the root of "Cheit" comes from an archery term to have missed the mark. By so also (though without the "Cheit" association with sin) with your comment that "We also have a case pecident that we can do without the Temple. The Jewish people had no Temple for a great many years between the 1st and Second Temples. "

I made that earlier reference, as normative Judaism does not believe in any aspect of the Temple sacrificial system.

You made Biblical references to what can make atonement for the soul, though I believe you missed the point, or mark if you will.

People of all faiths reach atonement for their sins when...they no longer commit them.


B'Shalom,

Ed



Scuba, I hate to do this, but you continue spreading some very eronious information regarding Judaism. You are also "Playing" to the audience as though this is a Springer episode.

I am an Orthodox Jew with several years of Rabbinical School under my belt and qualify for Smicha (Rabbinical Ordination). It is my understanding that you are not Jewish.

I have pointed out the problems with your posts. To state Jews no longer believe in the idea of the second Temple is akin to saying Christians no longer believe in Jesus. You simply can not seerate the two. If you would like to take the position that something less than Traditional Judaism such as the modern incarnations of Reformed Judaism dont believe in such things, that is fine, but even many of them do.



Link Posted: 9/28/2005 3:17:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By neshomamench:
Scuba, you made a very simple statement, that the idea third Temple is not part of Judaism today. All I did was state it was infact one of the most fundemental ideas of Judaism today. With references to back it up.

You did not address this in anyway but instead sought to explain problems and differnences within orthodoxy.

You are not Orthodox, I am. Those on the outside looking in dont understand. If you really think there is such a thing as "Orthodox" and "Ultra Orthodox" you have little to no understanding of it.

Do not EVER confuse someones level of observance with their religious Lable...I.E. Hassidic, Yeshivish, Modern orthodox, Ect.... In Isreal, and in much of the world, besides the United States, Everyone is Orthodox. Now again, dont confuse the term with level of observance. In Israel, even a Secular person would do Jewish things in an orthodox manner when they did Jewish things.

Let me sum it up for you. For the most part all Jews who follow a Traditional(Orthodox) path are the same. Where they come from and some customs may be different as well as the style of leadership they have. Other than that, Orthodoxy is orthodoxy.




_____________________

Re:

Let me sum it up for you. For the most part all Jews who follow a Traditional(Orthodox) path are the same. Where they come from and some customs may be different as well as the style of leadership they have. Other than that, Orthodoxy is orthodoxy.

___

Jeepers Creepers...and all other Jews are chopped liver?

Re:

Do not EVER confuse someones level of observance with their religious Lable

Then Do Not EVER, EVER, leave off the rest of the Jewish Community...Conservative, Reform.

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