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Posted: 7/24/2005 9:13:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:14:50 PM EDT
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:21:57 PM EDT
I disagree.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:25:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2005 9:26:27 PM EDT by Justa_TXguy]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



You got something against atheists?



I don't hate you because you're not an atheist.



edited to add: With the current climate of Muslim-bashing, I would think we are more welcome here than them.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:26:44 PM EDT
The religion business...................
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:36:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



Oh yeah, I can see how challenging that would be......he
I am under the impression that this forum was intentionaly created to separate religious discussions from GD. That being the case one would have to assume that excluding atheists and agnostics from posting here would defeat that purpose entirely and turn this forum in to mutual religious masterbatory area much like the Colt Industry and BOTS forums in which anyone who posts a discenting opinion is immediately tagged as a here
So if you want to turn this forum into a place where everyone requests prayers for their loved ones who have been smitten with,.... whatever. If you want to turn this forum into a place where athiests and agnostics are not welcome then I guess we'll just go back to the GD.

Have fun.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:52:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 9:56:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2005 9:59:01 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 10:18:02 PM EDT
I am not really for it either. I think that just about any arguement in which you can say "because it is not right" is a religious arguement considering that our foundation for morality is based in religion.

Face it, without the concept of an afterlife, there is no damn reason to be good.

And without our beliefs, on what basis do we define "good" anyhow?

Maybe the government can tell us what is "good".
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 10:53:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysadmin:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



Oh yeah, I can see how challenging that would be......

The whole forum would turn into revival. If all you want is a forum so all teh faithful can agree with each other there are plenty of other places to go like http://www.myshoesizeishigherthanmyIQ.com.

I am under the impression that this forum was intentionaly created to separate religious discussions from GD. That being the case one would have to assume that excluding atheists and agnostics from posting here would defeat that purpose entirely and turn this forum in to mutual religious masterbatory area much like the Colt Industry and BOTS forums in which anyone who posts a discenting opinion is immediately tagged as a .

Many here have lobbied to get a forum for religious discussion and debate because the GD fans apparently could not tollerate religious thread there. Apparently even the topics annoyed them because no one ever forced them to actually click on or read the content of those topics.

So if you want to turn this forum into a place where everyone requests prayers for their loved ones who have been smitten with,.... whatever. If you want to turn this forum into a place where athiests and agnostics are not welcome then I guess we'll just go back to the GD.

Have fun.




I am glad we agree.


Peace

St. gar15


Link Posted: 7/24/2005 11:07:31 PM EDT
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 11:15:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysadmin:
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.



Here ya go: The Answers

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 11:24:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:
I am concerned that soon any topic with a spiritual nature or a post advocating a position based on values found in mainstream "religions" will be forced into this area, effectively removed from the common marketplace of ideas.




The common marketplace of ideas is tired of 12 page knock-down drag-out religious fights on weekly (sometimes daily) basis. Everyone that wants to play the "my god can beat up your god" game can do it in here. As for general threads moving to the Religion forum, I think that'll be minimal, but probably will start happening when the finer points of scripture start being debated in threads about Supreme Court nominations.

I just wish we could select what forums show up in active topics, that way I could filter things out of my daily grind, like AK discussions, the EE, and this forum.
Link Posted: 7/24/2005 11:34:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ElCamino:

I just wish we could select what forums show up in active topics, that way I could filter things out of my daily grind, like AK discussions, the EE, and this forum.




I'd pay EXTRA for that

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 2:12:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



Link Posted: 7/25/2005 6:54:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:01:38 AM EDT
I don't mind the religious forum. I didn't mind not having one.

If people are so put off at simply discussing spirituality and religion, then fine, put the conversations in a place that will further isolate them from having to click on the topic. I mean, we all know that people who hate discussing religious topics feel compelled to enter the discussion by clicking on the thread and reading.



My spirituality is a big part of who I am as a person. It's impossible to separate one from the other 100% of the time. If that offends someone, then they need to grow a pair... as this site demographic isn't generally the politically correct manginas that frequent DU.

Or is it?
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 7:52:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By ElCamino:

Originally Posted By MRW:
I am concerned that soon any topic with a spiritual nature or a post advocating a position based on values found in mainstream "religions" will be forced into this area, effectively removed from the common marketplace of ideas.




The common marketplace of ideas is tired of 12 page knock-down drag-out religious fights on weekly (sometimes daily) basis. Everyone that wants to play the "my god can beat up your god" game can do it in here. As for general threads moving to the Religion forum, I think that'll be minimal, but probably will start happening when the finer points of scripture start being debated in threads about Supreme Court nominations.

I just wish we could select what forums show up in active topics, that way I could filter things out of my daily grind, like AK discussions, the EE, and this forum.



Don't pretend to speak for the common marketplace of ideas when you really mean yourself. And even if the vast majority of those in the "common marketplace" agree having this forum, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is in their best intrests. I don't like peas, but they are still good for me.

And your point about the finer points of scripture showing up in threads about SCUS is exactly my point. To move such threads here is to CENSOR those that value the input of scripture and shove us over in the corner, so the "unreligious" humanists don't have to consider our arguments. "Oh, that's not important. That's just the religious whackos going at it again" Do not try to marginalize those with views that conflict with yours- engage the argument with a better one.

Will threads that happen to include the finer points of humanist philosophy also get moved here?



I don't pretend to speak for anybody, I'm just expressing what has been repeated by many people over and over again. It's not the religion that they're necessarily tired of, but rather all of the pointless and unproductive bickering. The same fights over and over and over again. It gets old after a while.

As far as the SC example, once again, it's not the "oh no it's the religious wackos at it again" thing, it's the fact that it becomes a big time thread hijack that will almost invariably turn into an argument about abortion or evolution or something that really should be handled in its own post.

FWIW I'm really tired of the Atheist wackos injecting their little brand of hatred into any post that even mentions religion or God at all. Or not at all, for that matter. To be honest, it's just annoying and very unproductive and distracting to be waging a holy war across the site.

This forum I think is a great idea to keep the holy war contained for those that wish to participate in it.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:18:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:37:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



I dont want them out, I would just like them to give the respect they demand of us.


Oh my brothers and sisters in Christ,
if sinners will be dammed,
at least let them leap to hell over
our bodies and if they will perish,
let them perish with our arms about their knees,
imploring them to stay,
and not madly destroy themselves.
If hell must be filed,
at least let it be filled in the teeth
of our exertions, and let not one go there
unwarned and unprayed for.


C.H. Spurgeon

Link Posted: 7/25/2005 5:49:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 9:25:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
in my personal opinion.....

Threads in GD were getting overrun by the religion issues. Almost no thread could go more than 2 pages with pagans bashing christians, or christains wanting to preach to the sinners.

Preaching is fine.... in the proper context of a thread. A discussion of 9mmvs45 doesn't need to end up in a sunday sermon or scientology lesson. Members complain, things get done.

mike



+1.

I'm a pretty easygoing guy, but just reading a thread about homosexuality got me more pissed off than I've gotten reading this forum in a long time. I don't wear my feelings on my shirtsleeve, but seeing constant "Biblethumpers are stupid" rhetoric every other post made me see red for awhile.


I do hope the opening of this religious forum means that atheists who chime in anytime they see an opportunity to insert their anti-christian comments in a thread having nothing to do with religion will be appropriately reprimanded. And banned if they keep it up.
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 10:10:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 10:17:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2005 10:36:37 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Edited<va-gunnut>
Link Posted: 7/25/2005 10:30:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/25/2005 10:39:15 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 7/27/2005 11:31:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2005 11:48:22 PM EDT by bobbyjack]
I for one wish to thank Mike and whomever else got this forum started(for all the reasons Beerslayer stated) Many here(myself as one)did get tired of every post turning into a Christian bashing,or hey my name is John and I'm a Christian!

And then right behind that post(20 more anti-Christ) ect!

At least here if a member needs spiritual guidence he will know where to come!!!

There is a need for a Religion Forum!!!

Bob
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:59:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 7:34:01 PM EDT
I appreciate this forum. I will choose to come here and participate or not participate, irregardless of my own spirituality.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 7:45:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:25:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



I dont want them out, I would just like them to give the respect they demand of us.



Although I do not fall into the category of "athiest", I try to be respectful of others. I DO see a lot of "bash anyone who isn't christian" or more specifically, "bash anyone who isn't exactly what variety of christian you are" coming from a few people here. It gets annoying.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:33:34 PM EDT
I don't think there's anything wrong here. Lively, spirited debate maybe. Keep it civil and everything will be okay. Nobody makes any of us come to this forum and read, let alone participate.

For one, I have had some very good interactions with people as a result of this forum.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:44:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:52:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 8:53:34 PM EDT by WildBoar]

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



I dont want them out, I would just like them to give the respect they demand of us.



Although I do not fall into the category of "athiest", I try to be respectful of others. I DO see a lot of "bash anyone who isn't christian" or more specifically, "bash anyone who isn't exactly what variety of christian you are" coming from a few people here. It gets annoying.



I havent seen that yet. I see most bashing and trouble comming from the outside.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:38:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



I dont want them out, I would just like them to give the respect they demand of us.



Although I do not fall into the category of "athiest", I try to be respectful of others. I DO see a lot of "bash anyone who isn't christian" or more specifically, "bash anyone who isn't exactly what variety of christian you are" coming from a few people here. It gets annoying.



I havent seen that yet. I see most bashing and trouble comming from the outside.



I'm mostly referring to the ongoing texas-sig vs sgtar15 stuff that bleeds over into almost every thread in here, wether it is relevant or or not.



Other than that, I agree...most of the pure trolling comes from a couple of people who are really just in here TO troll.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:08:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:09:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 4:05:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:

Those with judeo-christian values being maginalized.



Jesus was marginalized. And yet still changed the world.

marginalization is actually a good thing. It makes it clear that whatever we accomplish is done NOT in our power, but by the power of God.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:30:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By WildBoar:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
It will be okay if we keep the athiest out.

But I doubt that will happen.

SGat1r5



I dont want them out, I would just like them to give the respect they demand of us.



Although I do not fall into the category of "athiest", I try to be respectful of others. I DO see a lot of "bash anyone who isn't christian" or more specifically, "bash anyone who isn't exactly what variety of christian you are" coming from a few people here. It gets annoying.



I don't

Sgfat1r5
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:32:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By MRW:
I'm still opposed, and what I thought would happen has started happening.




What do you see happening?



Those with judeo-christian values being maginalized.

Atheists interject thier relativistic religious values into any discussion anywhere, but those of the judeo-christian persuasion are told to "save it for the Religion forum"






That's true. ANd religious topic will get moved out of GD in a matter of minutes while scope, rifle, ammo, and other topics that don't beloing often seem to stay.


SGat1r5
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:34:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
I'm mostly referring to the ongoing texas-sig vs sgtar15 stuff that bleeds over into almost every thread in here, wether it is relevant or or not.



Other than that, I agree...most of the pure trolling comes from a couple of people who are really just in here TO troll.



Oh please! This just shows how little you know!

Him and I have GREAT arguements at times, but we also have solutions. You don't see everything that goes on you know. SOmetimes people communicate VIA IM also.

SGat1r5
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 5:44:22 AM EDT
The religion forum is a good thing. How else are men to discuss our morals and why and how we are to fight. If you can not defend your beliefs maybe you should study more. As for trolls they will be dealt with by being ignored are argued with. I thought the purpose of a forum was to discuss sometimes with much vigor your point of view.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:07:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:09:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MRW:

Originally Posted By jcncc:
The religion forum is a good thing. How else are men to discuss our morals and why and how we are to fight. If you can not defend your beliefs maybe you should study more. As for trolls they will be dealt with by being ignored are argued with. I thought the purpose of a forum was to discuss sometimes with much vigor your point of view.



Did you read my original post??? Who said anything about my inability to defend my beliefs? You completely miss my point.

The issue is censorship, making "religious" people go play in the corner so the rest of them can live their lives free from the influence of ideas they disagree with and cannot defend against. And it's mainly Christian beliefs that get segregated because Christian beliefs do not allow for compromise.
Folks that have a relativistic moral system cannot tolerate anyone telling them they are wrong, especially when the judgement is correct.


"go play in the corner so we can live our lives of lies and not have to face the conviction of truth"







This is my belief, also, despite what goatboy claims.


Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:13:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 6:15:44 AM EDT by u-baddog]

I object to the Religion Forum


I uderstand and agree with you BUT Mike has hit the nailed right on the head.

This forum is a compromise and the active topics is still getting the threads out to members. So its good for the site membership in the long run.
The exposure to decent threads that could have saved someone soul or helped them in someway will never be noticed here.
At least when they were started in the GD forum more people got exposed to idea's they may not agreed with at the time but with discussion and education comes change.
People do change (bendover) but most will not change without some form of help. Not saying BD needed any help I am just using him as an example of change.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:15:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

This is my belief, also, despite what goatboy claims.





Well, put your theory to the test. Offer a religious perspective in a GD thread. See what happens.

The only threads I see getting kicked into Religion Forum are the ones started as a religious discussion.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:35:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

This is my belief, also, despite what goatboy claims.





Well, put your theory to the test. Offer a religious perspective in a GD thread. See what happens.

The only threads I see getting kicked into Religion Forum are the ones started as a religious discussion.





I don't want to discuss 'religion'.

I don't want to start a 'religious' discussion, or add a 'religious' point of view to an existing discussion.

I couldn't care less about 'religion'. I'm not a 'religious' person. I don't see Christianity as a religion so much as I see it as a way of life - no, THE way of life.

That view is no longer tolerated in GD.

There was nothing 'religious' about the 'what is your favorite contemporary Christain song' thread that was recently started in GD.

However, in the interest of appeasing the masses, one of the moderators decided it was 'religious' and moved it to the 'religion' forum.

This disappointed me.

Ask yourself something:

as a Christain, what possible reason could you have for wanting to study mormonism, atheism, wicca, deism, agnosticism, or gnosticism?

The way to learn to spot frauds is by studying the real thing - not the frauds.

There's no need for 'religious' discussion.

It is mostly wasted. Most of the topics within this forum are strictly esoteric in nature, and largely unprofitable.

THAT is the real problem.

We, as Christians, don't need to discuss the things we're discussing here.

Rather, we need to ensure that Jesus is part of our everyday lives - including our conversations with non-believers.

The best way to do that (on this site, anyway) is in GD.

Having said that, there is a dilemma:

Several staff members (who I still believe need to be rotated out) are borderline hostile towards religious discussion. Several moderators are borderline hostile towards it, and none of them will actually defend it, with the obvious exception of EtH - who is, of course, a very religious fellow.

That being the case, anything that resembles an attempt to proseletyze will automatically be moved to this forum, and automatically be considered 'hostile' and, as has happened in the past, the 'offender' will be presumed guilty of some non-existent CoC violation, and kept on a 'short leash'.

There is, then, no way to win.

The mere presence of the religion forum gives moderators/staff an extra option when they find a thread to be offensive - they can move it here, or lock it for being off-topic.

The situation is much akin to those who despise church outreach programs - they get offended when church members dare to reach beyond the church parking lot.

Leave Jesus at church on sunday, they insist.




YMMV, of course.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:37:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
I couldn't care less about 'religion'. I'm not a 'religious' person. I don't see Christianity as a religion so much as I see it as a way of life - no, THE way of life.

That view is no longer tolerated in GD.




I'm not a religious person either.

I'll put it to the test myself, if GD no longer tolerates our way of life.

If true, that's sad (but predictable)

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:09:48 AM EDT
You bring up quite a few valid points AROWNER again.

Sgatr`15
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:05:19 AM EDT
I like the religion thread. It gives me a chance to share my opinions and see that of others.

However I have to agree with you to a certain extent, in that if a religious person gives thier opinion on a public topic and back it up with a verse they are told to take thier religion else where.

A good example is the aids debate. Christians know how to prevent aids by simply living what the word says ie. No sex before marrige and fidelity in marrige, no homosexual activity etc. There would be almost no aids if this was followed. But we are told we are judging people , we can't live that way blah, blah, blah. But the Humanists are more than happy to reach into Christian pockets, tax dollars, to find a "cure" for a disease that we know how to prevent.

As long as we don't get kicked off another thread because we give a religious reason for our opinion on a "non religious matter" I would like to see the religion section stay.

Debate is fine but we should try to keep it civil here.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:11:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 8:14:41 AM EDT by WildBoar]
I like it because it can be edifying and actually makes it easier for like minded individuals to fellowship and edify each other. It gives a place for others to learn of each others beliefs without attack.

I think its a shame many see this as a hinderance and not an opportunity given by God. I guess we shouldnt have churches then and we should just all congregate in the streets and have services and bible studies in traffic. I mean having places to bible study, discuss, and learn are just marginalising us right?

There are folks on this site that I used to have much respect for their faiths and hoped perhaps they could pop in here and edify the weaker bretheren who seek asylum from the wordly debates and attacks of GD. Their lack of participation tells me they have no desire or interest to edify the weaker brothers. Oh well I guess its really of no big loss. I find the fellowship in here to be a big boost for me and I see it as an opportunity.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:19:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
I like it because it can be edifying and actually makes it easier for like minded individuals to fellowship and edify each other. It gives a place for others to learn of each others beliefs without attack.

I think its a shame many see this as a hinderance and not an opportunity given by God. I guess we shouldnt have churches then and we should just all congregate in the streets and have services and bible studies in traffic. I mean having places to bible study, discuss, and learn are just marginalising us right?

There are folks on this site that I used to have much respect for their faiths and hoped perhaps they could pop in here and edify the weaker bretheren who seek asylum from the wordly debates and attacks of GD. Their lack of participation tells me they have no desire or interest to edify the weaker brothers. Oh well I guess its really of no big loss. I find the fellowship in here to be a big boost for me and I see it as an opportunity.



Good point about edification. That is exactly what I was hoping for in this forum: a chance to discuss things among like-minded people to learn more about the faith we believe in. I'm worried though, that this forum will be a big argument-fest. It seems a lot of non-religious people come to this forum for the sole sake of argument. Why, I don't know. Anyway, so far I like this forum and hope it can get better as time goes on.
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