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Posted: 9/7/2005 9:21:53 PM EDT
This girl was telling me how her friend's g/f had to have an abortion because she got pregnant by hey b/f (who is this girl's friend) and the guy had been told by a doctor that he's sterile, well, guess not. Anyways, she was telling me how it's good that girls can easily avoid the financial mess created by having unwanted babies and all that. I told her 'You know, I don't like abortion much, but I'm willing to let people do it, so I'm not pushing for a ban" She was like "Oh really ? Wow, you're a moderate" I then said "However, I think there should be mandatory psych evaluations/medical evaluations and a background check, as well was a $200 federal abortion tax, as well as a waiting period/limits on how soon you can have another abortion after having one, as well as getting a doctor to approve the proceedure. She whined and bitched 'That's unfair to girls who deserve the right to choose" and I said 'Yeah, these same practices are unfair to citizens who have the right to keep and bear arms" Then she tried telling me the two subjects were unrelated and that I was an asshole. I told her in fact, it is very much the same, you are talking about a practice/item that does or can kill people with either, and you are talking about something regulated by the govt. Then she told me 'Well, it's probably better for dysfunctional kids to be aborted for their own good" and I replied 'There's a kid outside being loud on his skateboard right now (10pm), should I go out and retroactively abort him ? She said "OMG, no, that's murder" and I said "Yeah, and the difference between that and abortion is....?" She just said "well, it's different" and called me a 'fucking asshole" then she left. Not trying to brag about winning a fight on the internet (I know it's like winning the special olympics) but I figure some of you guys would appreciate this. I'm 21 now, this girl was 20, just to put it in perspective for those of you who are older than me. Needless to say, I don't fit in well with my generation
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:29:36 PM EDT
Beautifully put on your part! Great points!
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:32:40 PM EDT
When the USA PATRIOT Act was passed a bunch of people at my school were whining about being "registered, and having the government keep files on you, and watch you". I said "welcome to the world of a gun owner".
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 9:42:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jaltered:
Beautifully put on your part! Great points!



Yep, and the statement about my beliefs on the matter is true, too. I'm neither hardcore pro-life or pro-choice. I'm a real moderate on the issue.
Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:28:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
and I replied 'There's a kid outside being loud on his skateboard right now (10pm), should I go out and retroactively abort him ? She said "OMG, no, that's murder" and I said "Yeah, and the difference between that and abortion is....?" ]



So, you really think it's exactly the same to have an abortion or murder a 10 year old, yet, you aren't 'pushing for a ban' on abortion?

Hmmm... a more capable debater would have had your lunch with a contradictory position such as that.

Also, why tie the abortion debate up with gun control? What on earth is the advantage to be gained? Here you're talking about the absolute holy grail of anyone even remotely left of moderate (abortion), and you're bundling it together with gun control as if they're essentially the same issue?

Exercising your gun ownership rights and exercising the currently legal choice to have an abortion are quite dissimilar. There are also hordes of people out there fighting for what they believe is the proper campaign to make abortion illegal. An adept liberal could point this out to you and justify the campaign against guns with it. It would be a lousy argument, but the pandoras box is one that you would have opened yourself.

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:34:00 PM EDT
Can I give you a little rule of arguing with Liberals?? I start off by saying:

"This argument is gonna end in ONE of three ways.

1. You are gonna call me names
2. You are gonna end it with 'Yeah, but still'
3. You are gonna bow out with "Well, lets just agree to disagree'"

Either way, It will end with them walking away and I win the argument. OVER!

Link Posted: 9/7/2005 11:41:23 PM EDT
Your logic is sound, but will never penetrate the thick skull of a Democrap. Still, well done!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:57:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:00:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 4:05:32 AM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:03:29 AM EDT
How many unwanted babies have you adopted? Just curious.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:08:07 AM EDT
I'm Pro-Choice, so I wouldnt necesarily agree wtih you.

That said, theres no correlation between owning a gun and having an abortion.
One is a stated and protected right, the other is not.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:14:00 AM EDT
Might be a bit off point...but how can one be a moderate when it comes to abortion?

Either you think it is ok to murder or you do not.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:16:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:01:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
she got pregnant by hey b/f (who is this girl's friend) and the guy had been told by a doctor that he's sterile, well, guess not.

She fell for that "it's OK I'm sterile" line? Oh man, that's a stupid chick!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:01:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:05:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 5:06:01 AM EDT by Cavu]
Great job Bob!!


Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
When the USA PATRIOT Act was passed a bunch of people at my school were whining about being "registered, and having the government keep files on you, and watch you". I said "welcome to the world of a gun owner".



What? I was told by the BATF that they don't keep any records!!

Hello, I'm from the gov't and I am here to help.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:14:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm Pro-Choice, so I wouldnt necesarily agree wtih you.

That said, theres no correlation between owning a gun and having an abortion.
One is a stated and protected right, the other is not.

I've found that many people prochoice on abortion are antichoice - what they hate - on guns.



I'm pro choice on both issues.
For abortion. For owning the biggest, loudest, meanest, scariest gun you can possibly carry. Ability to shoulder said weapon is not required.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:19:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:20:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many unwanted babies have you adopted? Just curious.



We shouldn't have to make a murderer's life better for them just so they don't murder,or give a robber all that they desire so that they don't steal from others.
The culpability is on them if they kill or steal.
What the person "wants" is established when they fail to use birth control and decide to have sex.


Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:23:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DrFrige:
Can I give you a little rule of arguing with Liberals?? I start off by saying:

"This argument is gonna end in ONE of three ways.

1. You are gonna call me names
2. You are gonna end it with 'Yeah, but still'
3. You are gonna bow out with "Well, lets just agree to disagree'"

Either way, It will end with them walking away and I win the argument. OVER!




Hey wait a second! That's how all my arguements end with conservatives!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:25:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:32:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm Pro-Choice, so I wouldnt necesarily agree wtih you.

That said, theres no correlation between owning a gun and having an abortion.
One is a stated and protected right, the other is not.

I've found that many people prochoice on abortion are antichoice - what they hate - on guns.



I'm pro choice on both issues.
For abortion. For owning the biggest, loudest, meanest, scariest gun you can possibly carry. Ability to shoulder said weapon is not required.

Good for you. How do you impress upon somebody who is pro abortion but wants guns banned, that they believe the wrong thing?





Usually gets the point across.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:44:46 AM EDT
If you happen to know the sterlie boyfriend, you may want to let him know that his bitch is cheating on him.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:50:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many unwanted babies have you adopted? Just curious.



Wow, that's just retarded. So you can't be against killing babies if you're haven't adopted any?

Maybe if you didn't' have sex outside of marriage it wouldn't be such a problem. Just curious.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:57:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fast_Jimmy:

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
and I replied 'There's a kid outside being loud on his skateboard right now (10pm), should I go out and retroactively abort him ? She said "OMG, no, that's murder" and I said "Yeah, and the difference between that and abortion is....?" ]



So, you really think it's exactly the same to have an abortion or murder a 10 year old, yet, you aren't 'pushing for a ban' on abortion?

Hmmm... a more capable debater would have had your lunch with a contradictory position such as that.
Also, why tie the abortion debate up with gun control? What on earth is the advantage to be gained? Here you're talking about the absolute holy grail of anyone even remotely left of moderate (abortion), and you're bundling it together with gun control as if they're essentially the same issue?

Exercising your gun ownership rights and exercising the currently legal choice to have an abortion are quite dissimilar. There are also hordes of people out there fighting for what they believe is the proper campaign to make abortion illegal. An adept liberal could point this out to you and justify the campaign against guns with it. It would be a lousy argument, but the pandoras box is one that you would have opened yourself.




That's not contradictory genius, its a reductio ad absurdum and it is very much a valid and effective debating technique. Bob did a nice job playing with her fragile little mind.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:58:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 9:05:19 AM EDT by WyattEarp]
Good job,

I am Pro-Life, & my position on teenagers getting unwanted pregnacies has always been firm. If you're careless enough to get pregnant from unprotected sex, & you consider yourself "adult" enough to have sex, then be responsible enough to take your medicine & have the baby. Abortion like welfare is the easy way out of one of life's many problems. It all comes down to Personal Responsibility.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:05:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fast_Jimmy:


So, you really think it's exactly the same to have an abortion or murder a 10 year old, yet, you aren't 'pushing for a ban' on abortion?

Hmmm... a more capable debater would have had your lunch with a contradictory position such as that.





Against a 'more capable debater,' Bob 1984 would have to point out that he did not state his position as being against retroactive abortion. Where's the contradiction
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:12:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
ETA - I've never seen the comparison approach work. As profiled above, your opponent doesn't see the common ground you do, and will simply reject the comparison. I have had much luck with the approach of talking about individual rights and responsibilities, even if I never actually mentioned any part of the phrase "individual rights and responsibilities".
]



I, too, believe that for an effective debate that has a chance of convincing someone of anything, you must carefully break down the principles involved with your support of an individual issue.

Many on this site seem to practice something I'll call 'issue bundling', which is pretty scary. Gun ownership and firearms freedom is one of my only absolute issues. It's beyond critical that we act as ambassadors to the general public and educate them about this essential freedom. A lot of people on here will mix their pro gun arguments willy nilly with their devotion to the president, their opposition to welfare, abortion rights, mistrust of the liberal leadership, support of the war, etc.

Gun ownership should not be a conservative/liberal issue. Those tired and hackneyed labels are basically useless now, anyway. Running all these issues together makes it easy to dismiss the debater as a political hack and does nothing to help preserve our rights.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:40:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:44:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 4:40:31 PM EDT by pathfinder74]

Originally Posted By Bob1984:
I then said "However, I think there should be mandatory psych evaluations/medical evaluations and a background check, as well was a $200 federal abortion tax, as well as a waiting period/limits on how soon you can have another abortion after having one, as well as getting a doctor to approve the proceedure.



Awesome. Apples and oranges aside, that is a great way to put it.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 11:20:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By southeast_scrounger:
Your logic is sound, but will never penetrate the thick skull of a Democrap. Still, well done!



Didn't expect to win,I've done this enough times. Getting her to resort to name calling and storming off was good enough for me
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 11:21:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
Might be a bit off point...but how can one be a moderate when it comes to abortion?

Either you think it is ok to murder or you do not.




Moderate in that while I disagree with the practice personally, I think it should be legal, but regulated.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 12:49:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
Might be a bit off point...but how can one be a moderate when it comes to abortion?

Either you think it is ok to murder or you do not.




Moderate in that while I disagree with the practice personally, I think it should be legal, but regulated.



My problem with that kind if thinking is that you should think that 100% of everything else should be legal as well.

Why not be against something your disagree with? I am not trying to convert your thoughts here, I am just trying to learn more about yours.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:20:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By catch223:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many unwanted babies have you adopted? Just curious.



Wow, that's just retarded. So you can't be against killing babies if you're haven't adopted any?

Maybe if you didn't' have sex outside of marriage it wouldn't be such a problem. Just curious.



Great idea.

Let's all go with the abstinence only education, and make abortion illegal.

That way we can have a bunch of teenage and crack-whore mothers who will just leave their newborns in dumpsters instead of getting an abortion.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 3:55:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:

Originally Posted By Bob1984:

Originally Posted By ZitiForBreakfast:
Might be a bit off point...but how can one be a moderate when it comes to abortion?

Either you think it is ok to murder or you do not.




Moderate in that while I disagree with the practice personally, I think it should be legal, but regulated.



My problem with that kind if thinking is that you should think that 100% of everything else should be legal as well.

Why not be against something your disagree with? I am not trying to convert your thoughts here, I am just trying to learn more about yours.




I'd love it if abortion went away, but the problem is, it's not going to go away. That, and I don't feel I have the right to impose my morals on others. I don't like others imposing on me, so I figure the right thing to do is not impose on them. I don't like abortion one bit, but the harder you try to ban it, the more people who are pro-choice will fight and fight on the issue. It's simply too hot of an issue for there to be a "one size fits all" answer. Same with drugs, I don't like drugs and I wouldn't be sorry at all if suddenly nobody did drugs anymore, but making it illegal hasn't worked simply because of the sheer number of users and prison overcrowding. People are typically getting a slap on the wrist for drug possession/use or just getting sent to detox, not serving lengthy sentences for breaking the law. My logic being that if you can't successfully ban it, keep it regulated.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:04:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2005 4:08:22 AM EDT by greenranger]
Tell her if her friend didn't have loose morals she wouldn't be pregnant in the first place.


GR
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:05:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HRoark:

Originally Posted By catch223:

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many unwanted babies have you adopted? Just curious.



Wow, that's just retarded. So you can't be against killing babies if you're haven't adopted any?

Maybe if you didn't' have sex outside of marriage it wouldn't be such a problem. Just curious.



Great idea.

Let's all go with the abstinence only education, and make abortion illegal.

That way we can have a bunch of teenage and crack-whore mothers who will just leave their newborns in dumpsters instead of getting an abortion.



We have that now and abortion is legal.

GR
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:08:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm Pro-Choice, so I wouldnt necesarily agree wtih you.

That said, theres no correlation between owning a gun and having an abortion.
One is a stated and protected right, the other is not.

I've found that many people prochoice on abortion are antichoice - what they hate - on guns.



I have also found that many people are pro-choice on guns are anti-choice on abortion.

Hypocritical either way.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:09:39 PM EDT
No helmet laws
No anti gun laws
No abortion laws
No seatbelt laws
No anti speech laws
No drug laws

Wait a minute, there seems to be a trend here,
maybe this guy is a libertarian or something,
maybe he understand the difference between "rights"
and intelligent choices, maybe this guy is on to something
like "FREEDOM," personal responsibility, the 'choice' to
monitor one's actions, the idea of not doing the right thing
because the Government says so, but doing the right thing
because it's right to be a productive member of ones society.

I am an adult, and in a "FREE NATION" I have the RIGHT to
do what ever I want to my body.

If I want to protect myself by wearing a helmet: I have the right to do so or not
If I want to protect myself by wearing a seatbelt: I have the right to do so or not
If I want to protect myself with a gun: I have the right to do so or not
If I want to put a substance in my body: I have the right to do so or not
If I was a women and I wanted to cut out an unborn baby from my womb,
(sad to say, this is the right of the woman, no matter how immoral it may be), She has that right
to do so or not.

True FREEDOM comes at a high price my friends:
Morons get to crack there skulls on pavement
Morons get ejected from cars because they did not put there seat belt on
Morons abuse drugs and destroy their lives
Morons remove unwanted unborn from their wombs
Morons choose not to arm themselves to protect their own families

The 'Bill of Rights' protects you from the government.
Only you can protect yourself from morons.

Educate yourself and your family. Instill morals in yourself and your family.
Tell them to wear helmets, and seatbelts. Tell them of the dangers of drug abuse.
Tell them they need to learn to defend themselves. Tell them that they should never
be negligent enough to put them in the situation of wanting an abortion. Don't forget
to encourage their love of freedom what ever the costs are.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:09:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jquillen1985:

Originally Posted By DrFrige:
Can I give you a little rule of arguing with Liberals?? I start off by saying:

"This argument is gonna end in ONE of three ways.

1. You are gonna call me names
2. You are gonna end it with 'Yeah, but still'
3. You are gonna bow out with "Well, lets just agree to disagree'"

Either way, It will end with them walking away and I win the argument. OVER!




Hey wait a second! That's how all my arguements end with conservatives!



Really. There are 2 threads on here where you have had your ass handed to you and you still don't seem to realize it happened.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:15:04 PM EDT

I am an adult, and in a "FREE NATION" I have the RIGHT to
do what ever I want to my body.



however, you do NOT have the right to do something to someone else's body, therefore you can't kill an unborn child.

You DO NOT have the right to do whatever you want to your own body. Using that argument, bestiality would be OK, because it's "your choice". Incest would be OK because hey, it's your body.

GR
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:16:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:
How many unwanted babies have you adopted? Just curious.



Wow, that's idiotic.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:18:33 PM EDT
Let me get this straight. You don't wan't government control over your guns, your life or much of anything else, of which I agree, yet you have no problem with the federal government telling an individual what can be done with their own bodies. You may not like abortion, however it is none of your business what others choose as long as it does not directly affect you.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:20:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 4:21:00 PM EDT by TheLibertarianMind]
Green ranger, I never said it's "OK" to have an abortion, And I don't think
beastiality is "OK," either. Freedom comes with a price, my friend, that means
that people get to do and say some really disstastful things.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:22:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 4:23:44 PM EDT by TheLibertarianMind]
MOGWAR, I don't want the goverment to tell me what I put in my body
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:23:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm Pro-Choice, so I wouldnt necesarily agree wtih you.

That said, theres no correlation between owning a gun and having an abortion.
One is a stated and protected right, the other is not.

I've found that many people prochoice on abortion are antichoice - what they hate - on guns.



I have also found that many people are pro-choice on guns are anti-choice on abortion.

Hypocritical either way.



It's hypocritical to be pro-choice on guns but not pro-choice on killing unborn babies?

I'm some how failing to see the link between the right to own a metal object and the right to kill an unborn babie.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:28:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 4:30:31 PM EDT by TheLibertarianMind]

Originally Posted By 89grand:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm Pro-Choice, so I wouldnt necesarily agree wtih you.

That said, theres no correlation between owning a gun and having an abortion.
One is a stated and protected right, the other is not.

I've found that many people prochoice on abortion are antichoice - what they hate - on guns.



I have also found that many people are pro-choice on guns are anti-choice on abortion.

Hypocritical either way.



It's hypocritical to be pro-choice on guns but not pro-choice on killing unborn babies?hinking.gif

I'm some how failing to see the link between the right to own a metal object and the right to kill an unborn babie.[/quote]

89grand,

The link is: the choice to arm yourself, and the choice to keep what is in your body. Now if you believe that a fetus has the same rights as a baby, then argument holds no validity with you. I sympathies with you distaste of abortion, I do.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:42:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 4:45:46 PM EDT
Well done, Son!
Typical liberal female response when they lose any argument: "Fuck you asshole!".
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:06:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I'm Pro-Choice, so I wouldnt necesarily agree wtih you.

That said, theres no correlation between owning a gun and having an abortion.
One is a stated and protected right, the other is not.

I've found that many people prochoice on abortion are antichoice - what they hate - on guns.



I have also found that many people are pro-choice on guns are anti-choice on abortion.

Hypocritical either way.

Actually, it isn't. Firearms are for defending the life/liberty/property of the innocent against those who would violate it.
Abortion arguably violates that. I don't feel like rehashing this yet again, but do you see where it might be possible for somebody to believe that this "mass of tissue" fits the biological definition of life and is the product of two humans mating, therefore one could call it human life? You also may notice that the mass of tissue isn't infringing upon another's rights.
Thus, you may be able to see how being "antichoice" on abortion and being "prochoice" on firearms work toward the same end: protection of innocent human life.



I don't see it that way. Until it is viable OUTSIDE the womb, it is not life.

That's how I see it and no amount of arguing is going to change anyone's mind. I still see it as hypocritical.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:55:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
I don't see it that way. Until it is viable OUTSIDE the womb, it is not life.

That's how I see it and no amount of arguing is going to change anyone's mind. I still see it as hypocritical.



So, even with a heartbeat and brainwaves, "it is not life". Brilliant.

And technology determines a person's humanity? Or are you saying that the child is only a human when it can survive on it's own without medical assistence? Which means that all those prebees are not human persons according to you.

The second point you are wrong about is that people have stated that they have changed their position on this issues by being convinced through the other sides argument.

Abortion, because Hillary Clinton, Jesse Jackson, Diane Fienstien, the ACLU and the Nazis cannot all be wrong can they?



We hold these truths to be SELF-EVIDENT, that all men are CREATED equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain INALIENABLE rights, that among these is LIFE...

So, the we all have the inalienable right to life from the moment we are created according to the Founders, but you think they are full of it and march in lock step with Hitlery Cllinton. Bravo.
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