I had a talk with ATF. Important info on full auto

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - I had a talk with ATF. Important info on full auto

Posted: 9/28/2001 2:54:28 PM EDT

I hear alot of rumors, especially by noobies, going around about auto sears and drilled receivers, so I decided to check with BATF. This is straight from the horse's mouth. Some of the stuff is cut out due to length, which I have added info at the bottom. Before you do any auto conversion, read this well....

[b]As defined in section 5845(b) of the National Firearms Act (NFA), the term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual
reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts
from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

An M16 automatic sear as shown in your illustration, is not a "machinegun" as defined and it is not prohibited under the National Firearms Act or the Gun Control Act. However, there are other forms of automatic sears which
are prohibited. An M16 A2 as you describe is a machinegun as defined. A receiver which accepts an M16 automatic sear is also a machinegun as defined. It is unlawful for any person to possess a machinegun which is
not registered to such person in accordance with the provisions of the NFA. Further, 18 U.S.C. Section 922(o) prohibits individuals from
possessing any machinegun which was not registered before May 19, 1986. Therefore, you cannot register a machinegun and it is unlawful for you to make a machinegun. "[/b]

[UNQUOTE]

The Jist

It is legal to own a M16 auto sear EVEN if you have an AR15. It is ILLEGAL however, to own a "Lightning Link" or make one.

There is no such thing as a registered "Auto Sear". ATF doesn't give a flying cow about auto sears. Paying $2500 for a "Registered" auto sear is STUPID. They consider the lower receiver and the trigger group (Auto sear, M16 bolt, selector, etc) the "Automatic Weapon" part, and thus the part you need to register and transfer.

If you have a automatic firearm, even if it was made in the early 1600's, and you didn't register it, you CANNOT register it EVER, and possession of it is illegal, no ifs ands ors or buts.

It is ILLEGAL to have in your posession a post ban AR15 or post ban receiver with a sear hole drilled. No questions asked. "A receiver which accepts an M16 automatic sear is also a machinegun as defined."

If you buy a registered M16 A2 receiver, it better have been registered as a complete firearm prior to 1986. A M16 A2 lower receiver that was not assembled into a firing weapon and registered before 1986 is illegal to own.

You can have a post ban AR15 with a M16 bolt, as long as you do not own, nor have in your posession the rest of the parts, and it does not have a sear hole drilled.

Hopefully this helps clear up some of the urban legends floating around, and helps keep everyone out of the BATF's claws. [:)]

Posted: 9/28/2001 3:12:46 PM EDT

[#1]

Monel,

You are incorrect on a couple of matters--the "Registered Auto Sear" is more correctly called a "registered drop in auto sear"--> DIAS. It does NOT require modifications to the receiver, which ARE illegal (i.e. no drilling for a sear pin), as the sear comes in it's own box with a pivot pin already in place. That is why they are so expensive.

The ATF will NOT allow new manufacture of machine guns for civilian sale (since 1986). Drilling a hole in an AR is considered making a new receiver. Having M-16 parts (ANY of them) in your possesion with an AR is considered "constructive possesion"--i.e. they can charge you claiming you have the intent to make a machine gun. This came from (and it is a pile of BS) the fact that they got a gun with some of these parts installed to fire more than once with one trigger pull--it may have (an ATF agent is on tape bragging about his ability to do this) come from greasing the gun up so heavily that it slam fired. HK's DO NOT do that, so you could have a full auto carrier in an HK 91 and you would not get into trouble.

There are a FEW limited exceptions--my full auto FNC had the receiver modified to accept the S & H sear, but that was done with ATF approval, as it is a proprietary sear design, and regular factory full auto sear's won't work in the modified receiver. Another screwed up part--a "Clip-On Registered Receiver HK" has the receiver registered, and the trigger group modified to make it work. The ATF won't let you change the receiver (registered part) to a push pin (factory design for full auto) as they consider it making a new machine gun (even though it is registered already).

You had to have the gun or receiver registered with the ATF before the May 1986 cutoff. It can have no further modifications to make it work. That is why Vector Arms is still selling new UZI's. They bought a huge lot of Group industries receivers (just the receivers) AFTER the 1986 ban and have been making them since with new parts. It would be illegal to have registered the AR receiver before the ban and drilled the holes afterward, but if you drilled the holes first (i.e. NO modifications needed done), registered it, and assembled it later, it would be legal.

Posted: 9/28/2001 3:35:57 PM EDT

[#2]

Monel_Funkawitz, AFARR is correct on ALL points,
from what you posted it would appear you spoke to an ATF Field Office (Chicago, Omaha, etc.), the ONLY Agents in the BATF that know ANYTHING about N.F.A. Laws and Regulations are the people
who work for N.F.A. Branch in the Washington DC Office.

Gunrunner

Posted: 9/28/2001 6:45:34 PM EDT

[#3]

Gunrunner,

Thanks for the info on the ATF. You do have to be careful dealing with them--as you said, the field agents don't always know what is going on with all the laws. There is a letter out there on the internet with my name (I sent it voluntarily to one of the websites that keeps the letters for info) on it concerning a particular make/model of rifle. I sent it direct to the ATF tech branch before I tried to make any modifications to the rifle (BTW--the ATF took so long to respond to my question that a new "ban" hit and what I could do before that ban became illegal).

Posted: 9/28/2001 6:58:23 PM EDT

[#4]

[url]http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/cases2.html[/url]

This site contains a nice list of NFA prosecutions. You might wish to check it out. One of the items was about a case where a guy was prosecuted after the ATF guys cleaned up his non-functioning gun then used a hammer to make it fire. He was convicted and the conviction was upheld. it has 1 case where a guy was prosecuted because his SOT lapsed due to ATF error for about a month. He was told he couldn't reregister the firearms since they were now illegal. He was convicted and the conviction was upheld.

Posted: 9/28/2001 10:33:03 PM EDT

[#5]

Just wait until the emerson ruling comes in. The ATF will have a field day dragging people in under Project Exile.

Posted: 9/28/2001 10:37:05 PM EDT

[#6]

What would it take to convert Imbroglio's .38 revolver into a "machinegun"?

I could imagine some A-team contraption with maybe a belt sander and a bicycle - and lots of duck tape and gum. If you've got all these things in your house, they may be coming for you next! [:D]

Posted: 9/28/2001 11:32:02 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Just wait until the emerson ruling comes in. The ATF will have a field day dragging people in under Project Exile.

View Quote

Hi Imbroglio,

Can you elaborate? Be specific for us dummies.

Thanks.

Posted: 9/29/2001 1:10:49 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
It is legal to own a M16 auto sear EVEN if you have an AR15. It is ILLEGAL however, to own a "Lightning Link" or make one.

There is no such thing as a registered "Auto Sear". ATF doesn't give a flying cow about auto sears. Paying $2500 for a "Registered" auto sear is STUPID. They consider the lower receiver and the trigger group (Auto sear, M16 bolt, selector, etc) the "Automatic Weapon" part, and thus the part you need to register and transfer.

View Quote

The problem here, Monel_Funkawitz, is you have no clue what you're talking about.

Unfortunately you don't know the difference between a GI Automatic Sear and a Drop In Auto Sear. The GI unit is just a small lever looking part that requires a "drilled" receiver. The DIAS does not, and will drop into just about any unmodified semi lower.

The specific thing that turns a semi into an auto is drilling the hole for the GI automatic sear. But when it comes to drop in auto sears and lightning links, the ATF has decided that this part alone can turn a semi into an auto, so it's a "conversion part" and therefore a machine gun all by itself. And yes, you can buy registered auto sears and lightning links that are ATF approved.

So before going off on these rants filled with inaccurate, incomplete, and generally worn out information that does little to enlighten but much to confuse readers, I suggest next time that you do your homework so you at least have a small chance at getting it right.

Posted: 9/29/2001 1:36:05 PM EDT

[#9]

Is Mr.Bin Laden's AK74SU (equipped with hi-cap RPK-74 45rnd mag) registered with ATF?

Posted: 9/29/2001 1:44:40 PM EDT

[#10]

What are "noobies"?

Posted: 9/29/2001 3:21:14 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Is Mr.Bin Laden's AK74SU (equipped with hi-cap RPK-74 45rnd mag) registered with ATF?

View Quote

Why??? Is binny a US citizen???

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - I had a talk with ATF. Important info on full auto

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