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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 2/24/2002 10:28:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 9:22:09 AM EST by TacticalMan]
criminals who will be denied purchase of a firearm in 2002. Yes, that's right. Even though I have never been convicted of any crime worse than a DUI almost 10 years ago, I was denied by NICS this weekend. At first I only gave them my name, etc. Then I tried again and gave them my SS# (which I LOATH to do). The Dealer said that if I gave that to NICS, that it had to go on the 4473 too, and that even if I was denied, he had to keep those 4473s for ATF inspections.[:(!] This bullshit has been going on as long as NICS has been in existence. Up to now, I have ALWAYS been delayed the FULL time period - They've NEVER called back with an approval![:(!] What can I do about this crap? I don't want to end up on any of their lists. The dealer said he would do what he can to help me. I was just wondering what experience the good readers here have with situations like this. Can I sue them for always delaying my purchases? What about this denial? Seems like a damage award would be appropriate. PS: It was for an awesome "Tactical" Mauser. [:)]
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:35:43 AM EST
In some states, Georgia being one of them, foregoing the NICS check is as easy as obtaining a CCW. I don't know what provisions your state has in place regarding this, but it may be a viable option. It seems the government is going to obtain your personal information one way or another. Good Luck.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:53:40 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:53:54 AM EST
Oh and isn't it convenient that the Dealer must keep ALL 4473s, even if they didn't result in a sale? Sounds like the illegal recording of NICS checks that we have been fighting so hard against.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 10:55:57 AM EST
Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473. Face it, they already have everything about you. They already know your SSN.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 11:00:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By 7: Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473. Face it, they already have everything about you. They already know your SSN.
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Obviously not or I wouldn't have been denied!
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 11:18:39 AM EST
I always list my SSN when I do a 4473. Personally, I now tend towards private sales to avoid the hassle and illegal registration. But, I don't see why you wouldn't give your SSN. I once had an FFL who was transferring a Receiver ask me to put my DL Number under "other ID". But, now I try to get any gun I want in private sales if possible to avoid the government knowing what I have. I only have 1 gun left that I got from a dealer. The rest are all off the books. But, sometimes you have to go through a dealer to get what you want. As, I am going to probably have to do when I order the Receiver to build an FAL. Receivers are near impossible to get in a Private Sale. But, it feels great when you walk into a gun show and buy/sell a gun no questions asked with no 4473 and no NICS. That was how the founding fathers intended it to be.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 11:24:41 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 11:46:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By TacticalMan: will be denied purchase of a firearm in 2002. What can I do about this crap?
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Use your CCL for ID instead of your DL. Even though you'll still have to go thru NICS, it'll seperate you from the trailer trash that shares your name. Make sure you're correct on the "denied" portion & it's not "pending".
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 11:51:10 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 11:52:02 AM EST
Sorry to hear that [b]TacticalMan[/b]. Yours is just another case of incremental gun banning. I've been accused of being a broken record about this on this site, but dammit - the Feds aren't f*cking around anymore. I said it before in another thread and I'm gonna be say it again here: [b]EVERYONE'S guns have already been banned, they're just taking their time rounding them up.[/b] Eventually you'll break one of their Draconian laws and the Feds will knock on your door and cart off your guns because you got in a bar fight 20yrs ago or because you called a mugger a "nigger" once or because, in your case, you got a DUI 20yrs ago.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 12:02:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2002 1:25:24 PM EST by MouseBoy]
If your DUI was 1) a felony, OR, 2) the judge could have sentanced you for more than one year - you are DOA. My opinion is non violent felons should be able to buy firearms. Get involved in an aggressive gun rights organization and try to make a difference. If the answer to both questions is no, then have you ever been arrested for anything else and not convicted? Many times the records of dispositions are not sent to the FBI. In many cases, only the arrest record will show up. They have a very difficult time finding old dispositions at the local level in many cases.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 12:07:03 PM EST
[b]F*ck their lists!! Too many of us are afraid of "lists"! Call DOJ/FBI and complain! DUNCAN ADAMS 56375 PROSPER RD. (The house with 2 flags on the flagpole, 1 AMERICAN, 1 DON'T TREAD ON ME!) BANDON, OREGON Stand up and be counted dammit and get the book![/b] (Unintended Consequences, by John Ross)
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 12:50:32 PM EST
Sounds like this falls under the same heading as the ratchet down on FFLs that's happened in the last ten years. If they make it more and more difficult to buy or sell a firearm, maybe people will just take up crocheting or water polo instead. Or if they tax the ammunition 10,000% (rot in hell daniel [B]P[/B]at[B]RICK[/B] moynihan) they've not banned anything, just turned your tactical assault sniper armor piercing high capacity velocirifle into a club, and a damned inefficient one at that.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 1:23:14 PM EST
Originally Posted By cc48510: I always list my SSN when I do a 4473. But, I don't see why you wouldn't give your SSN.
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Why should you? If they asked for 5 credit card numbers, would you comply with that too? I would recommend giving as little information as is legally required. Keep in mind that form already has your full name and address, and date of birth. Along with your SSN, it contains everything required for identity theft. You should guard that information as much as possible. The best way to do this is not provide it.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:22:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: worse than this the DUI alone could be a felony and cause permanent loss of your rights.
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1st DUIs in my state are punishable by a max 3 days in jail. Don't think it was that. Never had more than a ticket other than that.
Originally Posted By BobCole: Use your CCL for ID instead of your DL.
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Concealed carry is a felony in my state. In this state, we carry illegally and hope it gets busted down to an improper handling. It was definetely a "denied" and not a "pending" or a "delayed".
Originally Posted By oneshot1kill: Many FFL's had a problem with the old forms recently, which resulted in denials and eventually no sales for some shops untill the ATF allowed copies of the new form in the interim. This could have been what happened to you this time, but if you experience this often there is something else going on.
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No, this was an original of the new, detestable racist form. This really annoys me because the most contact I have with the law is partying with my cousins (cops) at weddings and volunteering my time to inner city schools (also cops involved in that). On the whole, I tend to agree with The_Macallan. I'm surprised they didn't ask me to read a Chinese newspaper. You know, the one that says "Ain't no niggers voting in this county" You can add to that "You ain't buyin' no guns either boy".
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:40:31 PM EST
Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473.
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To paraphrase a state police armorer, who taught a CCW class I had, if it's very hard to find a dealer you trust with a deposit, why would you trust them with your SSN when you don't have to? Of course, his opinion was skewed, because he mentioned he had two friends who got burned after the spouse of a dealer used info from her husband's 4473's to open a checking accounts in several of his customer's names. This was a double problem in this state, because your concealed carry permit is revoked if you convicted of writing a bad check.z
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 3:46:25 PM EST
Ok.Ok. I'm getting off track here. Sorry. I'm still pissed. What I'm really wondering is if this happens to anybody else. How many of those 204,000 denials are really law-abiding citizens like myself? Aimless, I appreciate the constructive advise. But I think they should feel my pain somehow.
Link Posted: 2/24/2002 4:24:35 PM EST
... Only a matter of time before we are all criminals. Read Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 12:28:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf: ... Only a matter of time before we are all criminals. Read Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged
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It's happening in California today.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 7:57:45 AM EST
does this mean you cannot legally own a gun? if so, are you going to draw a line in the sand when the JBT's come to confiscate your collection [:(]
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 8:33:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By TacticalMan: Ok.Ok. I'm getting off track here. Sorry. I'm still pissed. What I'm really wondering is if this happens to anybody else. How many of those 204,000 denials are really law-abiding citizens like myself? Aimless, I appreciate the constructive advise. But I think they should feel my pain somehow.
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Your not going to be able to find any statistical information on that. its not like the Federal government will admit: "Hey, these people (criminals) were denied, but 32% are actually innocent and we know who they are." Send a professional letter of complaint to the NICs people at the above address. good luck dude
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 6:55:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By exsanguinate: does this mean you cannot legally own a gun? if so, are you going to draw a line in the sand when the JBT's come to confiscate your collection [:(]
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Exactly. If are denied on a NICS check, in the Feds eyes you are not legally able to buy or [b]possess[/b] firearms. Since you already own other guns you better get this thing taken care of.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 7:00:05 AM EST
Maybe the NICS folks get kinda "weirded out" when you put "TacticalMan" on your 4473. [}:D]
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 9:33:05 AM EST
UPDATE I have sent the FBI a letter inquiring as to why I was denied. The response that I got back from the FBI was not in accordance with the procedure laid out at [url] www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsappeals.htm[/url]. Instead of informing me of the reason for my denial, they have requested that I identify myself with fingerprints. This effectively prevents me from taking the "Appeal Alternative" route and forces me to submit my personal information to their databases, like a convicted criminal. Am I the only one this bothers? Any lawyers out there care to take on a revue of their processes? Isn't it illeagal for them to do it this way?
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 10:20:53 AM EST
From the FBI's web page:
The NICS Operations Center will respond to your request by providing the reason(s) for your denial within five business days after receiving your request.
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TacticalMan, since it's been over five days and they haven't provided the reason(s) for the denail within five days, they are in violation of their own policy. I'd at least try a second contact asking for the information before going through the process of having fingerprints done. If your local sherrif's office is like mine, they won't do them except for certain specific reasons. Of course, if you ever plan on getting a CCW, then in most states you have to submit fingerprints anyway so it won't make a difference if you do send them in.z
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 10:30:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/9/2002 10:31:02 AM EST by cc48510]
[center][u][b]18 USC 44 Sec. 925A[/b][/u][/size=2][/center] [list]Any person denied a firearm pursuant to subsection (s) or (t) of section 922 - [list][b](1)[/b] due to the provision of erroneous information relating to the person by any State or political subdivision thereof, or by the national instant criminal background check system established under section 103 of the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act; or [b](2)[/b] who was not prohibited from receipt of a firearm pursuant to subsection (g) or (n) of section 922, may bring an action against the State or political subdivision responsible for providing the erroneous information, or responsible for denying the transfer, or against the United States, as the case may be, for an order directing that the erroneous information be corrected or that the transfer be approved, as the case may be. In any action under this section, the court, in its discretion, may allow the prevailing party a reasonable attorney's fee as part of the costs [/list] [/list]
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 10:35:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By TacticalMan:
Originally Posted By 7: Why worry about putting your SSN on the 4473. Face it, they already have everything about you. They already know your SSN.
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Obviously not or I wouldn't have been denied!
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Actually, you're wrong. SS#'s are person specific, while a name may be had by many many people, your address is what distinguishes you from the rest if that gun has to be tracked back to you. There is no difference in putting your name or your SS# on a form these days, so I wouldn't worry about that either.
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 11:39:42 AM EST
Actually, you're wrong. SS#'s are person specific
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No they are not! Many people have duplicate SSN's. The Social Security Administration intended for them to be, but they screwed-up many times in the past in assigning numbers. Also, blocks of numbers, like my SSN, were given to some employers to give-out to employees. Many companies, the largest was Southern Pacific Railroad if I remember correctly, gave-out duplicate numbers. I have two friends that I know about that were assigned the same SSN as someone else, because they had the same last name and were born on the same day as someone else that had applied for a number. The SSA gave-out the same number again thinking it was a duplicate request. Assuming that SSN's apply to a specific person are a common rookie database programmer mistake. Several banks have screwed-up customer accounts when they assumed a SSN was a unique key. The BATF has admitting to repeating this same novice mistake of assuming records with a given SSN apply to everyone with that SSN.z
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 12:23:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By TacticalMan: Isn't it illeagal for them to do it this way?
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Dude, they ARE THE LAW. When they can shoot innocents in the face, shoot women holding babies, burn down churches full of women and children, DO YOU THINK YOU CAN GET THEM TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR YOUR NICS CHECK?
Link Posted: 3/9/2002 5:22:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/9/2002 5:23:41 PM EST by TacticalMan]
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Dude, they ARE THE LAW. When they can shoot innocents in the face, shoot women holding babies, burn down churches full of women and children, DO YOU THINK YOU CAN GET THEM TO FOLLOW THE RULES FOR YOUR NICS CHECK?
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Touché I guess that just points out one of the evils of administrative law - they not only enforce the law, they make it up too.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:25:30 AM EST
4 months after my initial denial the FBI finally gets their act together and figures out that I'm not a Dread Felon. I guess I should consider myself lucky; when i called one time they told me that they are under no legal obligation to EVER investigate appealed rejections. Turns out that they denied me based on a charge, not a conviction. FWIW, $.02 please.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 6:19:56 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 6:52:59 AM EST
I too was denied because of bogus info they had on my SSN. It was a state thing though. I called the folks and found out the reason was due to my SSN came back as a woman. It turns out that someone had stolen my SSN and had been arrested somewhere causing there system to redflag. It took a little while to clear things up. But if I didn't call back and question them. I would have never known about the my SSN getting hijacked. Another reason I am glad and I did not think about this until reading the whole thread. If I would have gotten busted for something serious and my gun collection came into play with me not being allowed to have one. Things would have gotten very interesting.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 7:59:01 AM EST
I too don't understand the NICS background check. When I lived in Ohio I was always delayed but they always called back in a few hours with a proceed. Since I moved to TN 8 months ago, I've bought a bakers dozen of various firearms and have never been turned down or delayed. When I first moved down here I bought a 9mm a week after I moved and it was approved without a hitch. Totally different address, same SS#. Good luck Rick
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:30:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 9:34:16 AM EST by TacticalMan]
Gentlemen, as I said above, I finally got back a response from the FBI stating the reason for my denial. I was not convicted of that charge and the FBI took note of that and in their letter stated that, in fact, I am a Good Guy and can purchase firearms. With that knowledge firmly in hand, I went shopping for the coveted "Tactical Mauser". I found it in the form of a tight M48A. The dealer called in the NICS check and guess what? [:(!][b]DELAYED!!![/b][:(!][:(!] (yes, I know thats' not technically the same as a denial, but it is functionally equivalent when you have to leave before the 2 hr minimum call-back period has expired. A Right delayed is a Right denied.) Which gives me an idea. These morons are checking NICS against arrest records, not conviction records. How can you tell anything about anybody from arrest records? My felony arrest charge was DROPPED! Is there anyone out there that, for my good and the good of my fellow countrymen, could help me bring suit against the NICS system? Or should I just have my name legally changed and forget it?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:23:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By TacticalMan: My felony arrest charge was DROPPED!
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If the charges were "dropped" you need to have the arrest records expunged from the FBI and the state's criminal history system. The procedure varies depending on the state of the arrest. You need to contact an attorney in the state the arrest took place to advise you of the procedure. Depending on your state of residence you can also bypass the NICS check if you have a CCW permit.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:55:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By TacticalMan: Ok.Ok. I'm getting off track here. Sorry. I'm still pissed. What I'm really wondering is if this happens to anybody else. How many of those 204,000 denials are really law-abiding citizens like myself?
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According to James Bovard, about 7%.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:44:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: worse than this the DUI alone could be a felony and cause permanent loss of your rights.
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This varies from state to state. I don't think it is generally a felony.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:50:58 PM EST
BTW, if I'm not mistaken, each state is free to implement its own version of the NICS system, and it they don't it defaults to the Fed system. I know here in Colorado the state does its own background checks. Maybe you should be checking with a state agency instead of the FBI?
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 12:53:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 1:00:56 AM EST by kentstate4]
Tactical man, contact a lawyer and ask him about getting that conviction, arrest, explunged from your record. Then you can own anything with proper forms.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:48:58 AM EST
Thankx for the advice, guys. I will contact a lawyer. Heck, I don't care about getting the convictions expunged - it's the arrest that's killing me!
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