Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:52:34 PM EST
I am interested in picking up some heavy cal rifles. Possibly .338/.416/.458 among others.

Now, for reference, I have shot 3" magnum 00Buck and 3" magnum slugs out of a 12 gauge.

The largest cal rifles I have shot are .308 and .30-06


How do the large cal rifles compare to that shotgun recoil? The recoil was reasonable, but not unmanageable, yet certainly not comfortable to shoot a large number of rounds.

I assume even the big boys, .458 etc, can be somewhat tamed with a muzzle break.


thoughts?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:58:05 PM EST
Feels like .300 win mag kicks like an auto 12 gauge with bird shot.

That's about all I have.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 8:58:25 PM EST
The only thing I can contribute is that I wish I had the dough to get one of these:
H&H Royal

Its a lovely rifle.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:25:43 PM EST
This kind of comparison cannot be made...

Recoil is subjective. In addition, there are a whole host of "it depends".

Recoil can be measured in ft/lbs of free recoil. Many 243's deliver 10 ft/lbs. A lot of other deer rifles are delivering 15 or so. My 350 Rem delivers 30 ft/lbs. I've seen many stats indicating that many people do not shoot rifles well when recoil exceeds 20 ft/lbs.

What does it depend on? Rifle weight primarily. Weight is still the key. A 7 lb .308 with 150 grain loads will deliver about 16 ft/lbs. Increase the weight to 8 lbs and fire the same load: recoil is 14 ft/lbs, about 15% less.

Then stock design. Rifles with narrow butts, hard plates, a lots of drop at the heel seem to kick much harder than a rifle with a wide soft buttplate, and very little drop.


Recoil (as in felt recoil) is also affected by recoil SPEED. How fast does the rifle come back? Don't underestimate this. Its the difference between a hard fast kick and a very firm but far slower "push".

I shoot a .350 Rem Mag. This was originally a caliber that was unpopular because of recoil. The original 660 rems were light. My newer 673 is relatively heavy (about a pound heavier), has a wide stock, soft recoil pad, and very very little drop at the comb. As a result this rifle does not seem to recoil bearly as hard as others. Rather than a 'kick', I get a slower, firm push.

I'm launching 225's at 2650. I've done 'em at 2740 fps and recoil is still quite managable. TO be completely honest, the recoil isn't appreciably harsher than in my deer rifle ( a fly wieght .308). The little 308 is much, much lighter, has a different stock design and so it comes back hard and fast. My hardest kicker is a Tompson Center Contender G2 carbine in 45x209. Lots of drop at the heel, a shitty stock design, large bullets and 150 grains of powder all make for a harsh kicker.

I've fired a number of modest calibers (30-06 and the like) that kick harder than many magnums. Caliber frequently doesn't matter as much as weight, load, and stock design.

If you want a heavier rifle with modest recoil, I do stronglyt recommend the 350 Rem. It is fully adequate for anything in the western hemisphere. Recoil (subjectively) is slower than the 338 and therefore not as harsh. The 225 Nosler partitions anchor anything. Max effective range is 300 yards, which is plenty. Impact speeds beyond 300 are too slow for reliable expansion but 300 is a LONG way out there. I looked at em all, and the 350 offered the best performance with lowest subjective recoil, especially when fired in the Rem 673. The stock is ugly, but remington got it right in terms of a stock designed to eliminate recoil. And this is without an R3 pad. Equipped with steel rings and bases (warne) and a larger scope (Bushnell Elite 4200 1.5-6x) the combo comes in at about 8.5 pounds. No light wieght. But the weight is "right" : The rifle holds and points very well, and recoil is tamed quite nicely. You know its a medium bore going off, but its not abusive (at least in my book).

Any time someone says the recoil of XX cartridge is like the recoil of YY cartridge, you can pretty much ignore the comparison. Its sorta like someone saying it 'tastes like chicken". THe comparison is not valid. Recoil will depend on (in order of importance):

rifle Weight
Shooter recoil tolerance and stance
stock design
selected load (velocity, bullet weight and charge weight)
barrel length (and subsequently balance of the rifle and its tendency to rotate up)

Muzzle breaks suck. Increased noise and back blast are a pain in the ass. If you need a brake, you are shooting a caliber larger than you can handle. Find a better designed stock, learn to shoot better, and/or move to a smaller caliber you can shoot more effectively.

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:34:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By frozenny:
*ze snip*

Muzzle breaks suck. Increased noise and back blast are a pain in the ass. If you need a brake, you are shooting a caliber larger than you can handle. Find a better designed stock, learn to shoot better, and/or move to a smaller caliber you can shoot more effectively.



.50BMG disagrees with you.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:36:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hojo:

Originally Posted By frozenny:
*ze snip*

Muzzle breaks suck. Increased noise and back blast are a pain in the ass. If you need a brake, you are shooting a caliber larger than you can handle. Find a better designed stock, learn to shoot better, and/or move to a smaller caliber you can shoot more effectively.



.50BMG disagrees with you.


+1, muzzle brake's are VERY effective, however they DO increase noise and concussion.

As for the .50 cal, if you shot it without the muzzle brake, it would probably break your shoulder blade, or coller bone or something.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:50:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 9:51:43 PM EST by GeorgeInNePa]

Originally Posted By frozenny:
This kind of comparison cannot be made...

Recoil is subjective. In addition, there are a whole host of "it depends".

Recoil can be measured in ft/lbs of free recoil. Many 243's deliver 10 ft/lbs. A lot of other deer rifles are delivering 15 or so. My 350 Rem delivers 30 ft/lbs. I've seen many stats indicating that many people do not shoot rifles well when recoil exceeds 20 ft/lbs.

What does it depend on? Rifle weight primarily. Weight is still the key. A 7 lb .308 with 150 grain loads will deliver about 16 ft/lbs. Increase the weight to 8 lbs and fire the same load: recoil is 14 ft/lbs, about 15% less.

Then stock design. Rifles with narrow butts, hard plates, a lots of drop at the heel seem to kick much harder than a rifle with a wide soft buttplate, and very little drop.


Recoil (as in felt recoil) is also affected by recoil SPEED. How fast does the rifle come back? Don't underestimate this. Its the difference between a hard fast kick and a very firm but far slower "push".

I shoot a .350 Rem Mag. This was originally a caliber that was unpopular because of recoil. The original 660 rems were light. My newer 673 is relatively heavy (about a pound heavier), has a wide stock, soft recoil pad, and very very little drop at the comb. As a result this rifle does not seem to recoil bearly as hard as others. Rather than a 'kick', I get a slower, firm push.

I'm launching 225's at 2650. I've done 'em at 2740 fps and recoil is still quite managable. TO be completely honest, the recoil isn't appreciably harsher than in my deer rifle ( a fly wieght .308). The little 308 is much, much lighter, has a different stock design and so it comes back hard and fast. My hardest kicker is a Tompson Center Contender G2 carbine in 45x209. Lots of drop at the heel, a shitty stock design, large bullets and 150 grains of powder all make for a harsh kicker.

I've fired a number of modest calibers (30-06 and the like) that kick harder than many magnums. Caliber frequently doesn't matter as much as weight, load, and stock design.

If you want a heavier rifle with modest recoil, I do stronglyt recommend the 350 Rem. It is fully adequate for anything in the western hemisphere. Recoil (subjectively) is slower than the 338 and therefore not as harsh. The 225 Nosler partitions anchor anything. Max effective range is 300 yards, which is plenty. Impact speeds beyond 300 are too slow for reliable expansion but 300 is a LONG way out there. I looked at em all, and the 350 offered the best performance with lowest subjective recoil, especially when fired in the Rem 673. The stock is ugly, but remington got it right in terms of a stock designed to eliminate recoil. And this is without an R3 pad. Equipped with steel rings and bases (warne) and a larger scope (Bushnell Elite 4200 1.5-6x) the combo comes in at about 8.5 pounds. No light wieght. But the weight is "right" : The rifle holds and points very well, and recoil is tamed quite nicely. You know its a medium bore going off, but its not abusive (at least in my book).

Any time someone says the recoil of XX cartridge is like the recoil of YY cartridge, you can pretty much ignore the comparison. Its sorta like someone saying it 'tastes like chicken". THe comparison is not valid. Recoil will depend on (in order of importance):

rifle Weight
Shooter recoil tolerance and stance
stock design
selected load (velocity, bullet weight and charge weight)
barrel length (and subsequently balance of the rifle and its tendency to rotate up)

Muzzle breaks suck. Increased noise and back blast are a pain in the ass. If you need a brake, you are shooting a caliber larger than you can handle. Find a better designed stock, learn to shoot better, and/or move to a smaller caliber you can shoot more effectively.



Fantastic post!


Except for the last line.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 3:17:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By F22_RaptoR:

Originally Posted By Hojo:

Originally Posted By frozenny:
*ze snip*

Muzzle breaks suck. Increased noise and back blast are a pain in the ass. If you need a brake, you are shooting a caliber larger than you can handle. Find a better designed stock, learn to shoot better, and/or move to a smaller caliber you can shoot more effectively.



.50BMG disagrees with you.


+1, muzzle brake's are VERY effective, however they DO increase noise and concussion.

As for the .50 cal, if you shot it without the muzzle brake, it would probably break your shoulder blade, or coller bone or something.




here you go:



youtube.com/watch?v=jSC5LZh6bLE
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 8:24:59 PM EST
anyone else?
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 8:43:27 PM EST
Cheap!





Ammo has gotten a little scarce and tripled in price, but if you want painful recoil look no further.

Not exactly a precision rifle, though it is handy and accurate enough.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 8:55:56 PM EST
Modern high pressure rifle cartridges can have excessive recoil. I cannot handle a .338 winmag comfortably despite being comfortable and confident with a .375. The recoil impulse is simply too fast. The old safari calibers like .450/400 3 inch are also light recoiling. They will bring your forward foot of the ground if you don't lean into it but they aren't going to come back at you quickly.

I've not fired anything larger tha .375 more than a couple of times so I can't say for certain, but unless you are very tolerant of recoil naturally, or practice extensively, that is likely the limit of recoil you will be able to handle without developing a flinch. Thankfully, that caliber is also large enough to take nearly any animal on the planet cleanly.

Don't get wrapped up in a lightweight gun either. Sure its great bragging rights, but a ten pound gun that settles down offhand and doesn't beat you silly is better than a seven pound gun you can carry all day but can't shoot effectively.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 8:58:37 PM EST
Not bad as long as you've got a proper muzzle brake. I wouldn't say a Barrett is all that different from a 12-gauge, myself.

Probably break your shoulder off if you fired it without the brake though.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:06:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By AngeredKabar:
Feels like .300 win mag kicks like an auto 12 gauge with bird shot.

That's about all I have.


That's the least accurate recoil comparison I've ever seen. It's not even close. 300 win mag is probably 2 or 3 times the recoil.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:19:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Frost7:
Not bad as long as you've got a proper muzzle brake. I wouldn't say a Barrett is all that different from a 12-gauge, myself.

Probably break your shoulder off if you fired it without the brake though.


I would not use a muzzle break on a hunting arm. Now, shooting from position, like varmint hunting, it wouldn't matter. But in a dangerous game or heavy game rifle you will probably not have ear pro on.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:29:17 PM EST
Want to get an idea of whether or not you can truly handle heavy recoiling guns? Go buy a box of true 12ga turkey loads with 2 1/4 oz of shot in a 3.5" shell. Now, find someone with a pump, or better yet, a NEF Pardner shotgun with a 3.5" chamber and you will see what heavy recoil is all about. 3.5" full loads out of a 6-7lb 12ga are BRUTAL! I can't find the link now, but I believe they are in the neighborhood of 70lbs of recoil. As a comparison, a 180gr '06 load has around 20lbs of recoil.

If you want to get really froggy, shoot a few of the bench. I've had to pattern a few turkey guns this way, and it is freakin' unpleasant.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:34:47 PM EST
Nobody has said .45-70
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:36:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 9:46:04 PM EST by Jason280]

Originally Posted By Jrock82:
Nobody has said .45-70


In factory loads? Tame, especially compared to some 2 3/4 and 3" 12ga loads. Standard .45-70 loads feature 405gr bullets at around 1300-1350fps. 2 3/4 12ga loads feature about 1.5-1.75oz of buckshot at over 1200fps, meaning you have over 650gr of projectile at almost the same velocity as the .45-70. Of course, that doesn't even mention 2.25oz of turkey loads at 1250fps (an ounce is equal to around 437gr).

Now, bring full house Garrett loads in the mix, and you've got some serious shoulder thumpin' going on. I think Garrett offers a hardcast 500gr bullet at around 14-1500fps in the .45-70, but it still does not outdo full turkey loads in a 12ga.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:44:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:47:36 PM EST
I personally don't see any useful reason to hit these calibers until you own everything else. .300wsm will handle %90 of shots. If you want something bigger hit up the .50bmg. You won't regret it.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 9:50:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By SuperSixOne:
I personally don't see any useful reason to hit these calibers until you own everything else. .300wsm will handle %90 of shots. If you want something bigger hit up the .50bmg. You won't regret it.



For dangerous game it 's really a smart choice but , other than that why own a .458 Win mag.
Or a .460 Weatherby
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:17:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Frost7:
Not bad as long as you've got a proper muzzle brake. I wouldn't say a Barrett is all that different from a 12-gauge, myself.

Probably break your shoulder off if you fired it without the brake though.


I would not use a muzzle break on a hunting arm. Now, shooting from position, like varmint hunting, it wouldn't matter. But in a dangerous game or heavy game rifle you will probably not have ear pro on.

Why not? especially when modern ear pro can increase your hearing. I'm no hunter, but that would seem a plus, to me.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:20:31 PM EST
10 gauge shotgun with slugs in a light pump shotgun.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:22:33 PM EST
If you're talking about the big bore ARs, like .458 SOCOM, .50 Beowulf and .499 LWR then I can chime in.

I have owned .458 SOCOM and .499 LWR. The felt recoil is very manageable, but it can put a nasty mark on your shoulder if you're shooting with an A2 stock. The ACE skeleton stocks are great for these guns and reduce the felt recoil considerably. I personally wouldn't own another big bore AR without an Ace skeleton stock.

I would say that the felt recoil on a .458 SOCOM and a .499 LWR is about that of a 2 3/4" 12 gauge in the birdshot/buckshot range.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:22:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By Frost7:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Frost7:
Not bad as long as you've got a proper muzzle brake. I wouldn't say a Barrett is all that different from a 12-gauge, myself.

Probably break your shoulder off if you fired it without the brake though.


I would not use a muzzle break on a hunting arm. Now, shooting from position, like varmint hunting, it wouldn't matter. But in a dangerous game or heavy game rifle you will probably not have ear pro on.

Why not? especially when modern ear pro can increase your hearing. I'm no hunter, but that would seem a plus, to me.


It's a plus... until you are arrested for poaching.

No go, dude. Against the law.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:27:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Frost7:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Frost7:
Not bad as long as you've got a proper muzzle brake. I wouldn't say a Barrett is all that different from a 12-gauge, myself.

Probably break your shoulder off if you fired it without the brake though.


I would not use a muzzle break on a hunting arm. Now, shooting from position, like varmint hunting, it wouldn't matter. But in a dangerous game or heavy game rifle you will probably not have ear pro on.

Why not? especially when modern ear pro can increase your hearing. I'm no hunter, but that would seem a plus, to me.


It's a plus... until you are arrested for poaching.

No go, dude. Against the law.

.... what? There is no damn way active hearing protection is against the law. I demand to be shown the law before I'll believe that.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 10:59:03 PM EST
I can shoot boxes of 12ga slugs out of a 870 w/ 18" barrel.

On the other hand, I shot my friend's .338 Win mag once. Didn't care to fire a second round. I thought 8mm mauser was healthy, but not anymore.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:01:05 PM EST
Can't seem to find it... I remember it from when I used to hunt in WI.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:04:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2008 11:04:57 PM EST by Frost7]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Can't seem to find it... I remember it from when I used to hunt in WI.

Regardless, if it exists, that is probably the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. A law against active hearing protection is about as insanely fucking stupid as a law against binoculars.

I would refuse to hunt in that state.
Link Posted: 7/21/2008 11:38:39 PM EST
It's a law to prevent people from unfairly taking game. Likewise, you can't have a flashlight, radio, night vision, etc on you either.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 12:00:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It's a law to prevent people from unfairly taking game. Likewise, you can't have a flashlight, radio, night vision, etc on you either.

If I'm poaching, a law about what equipment I can use to do it rates slightly above "do not give a shit" on the list of concerns.

That's like gun free zones.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 12:07:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
It's a law to prevent people from unfairly taking game. Likewise, you can't have a flashlight, radio, night vision, etc on you either.



complete bullshit I would love to see you pull a link for that. I know for a fact they are legal in NV one of my buddies is a game warden and uses walker game ears all the time. So if some old timer has hearing aids he has to take them out before he goes hunting? I think not
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 12:15:31 AM EST
I own a Browning A-Bolt in 375 H&H Mag and a Ruger 77 in 416 Rigby.

the 375 is not too bad, just a little more than a 12 gauge shotgun so I can go 50 rounds or more but the 416 tops out for me at 20 to 25 rounds per range session.

A buddy has a Ruger #1 Tropical in 458 Lott and that feels real close to my 416 in recoil, maybe just a tad more with 500 grain bullets

I usually fire from a bench so if I shot standing that would let me shoot a little more but don't get me wrong, I'll be sore for sure.

it's not just the shoulder feeling the kick but later your neck can be very sore from the jolts too

I think you gotta let the recoil shove you around instead of leaning into it that way it's easier on the shoulder.

I'm 6 Ft tall 310 Lbs so I do "absorb" the recoil well
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 12:16:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2008 12:18:20 AM EST by sharps54]
The problem with muzzle brakes when you are hunting dangerous game is that your guide and trackers (we are talking Africa here) will not be wearing ear protection and you are doing more damage to them. I have fired many "elephant rifles" and find that 3.5" 12 gauge 00 buck from a side by side is worse then any of them. The heavy caliber rifles are not meant to be fired from the bench, you shoot them standing up, either offhand or off shooting sticks. I used to sight mine in off a camera tripod with a "Y" yoke.

Botch, your best bet is to find someone in your area with these kind of rifles and try them. If you can't find anyone on the hometown foum here at AR15.com then try accuratereloading.com

ETA the post above me is spot on, you will feel the effects of the recoil and "brain slush" the next day on the big boys. That is how you know what your limit is! Your body size doesn't have a lot to do with it, everyone is different.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 1:12:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jason280:
Want to get an idea of whether or not you can truly handle heavy recoiling guns? Go buy a box of true 12ga turkey loads with 2 1/4 oz of shot in a 3.5" shell. Now, find someone with a pump, or better yet, a NEF Pardner shotgun with a 3.5" chamber and you will see what heavy recoil is all about. 3.5" full loads out of a 6-7lb 12ga are BRUTAL! I can't find the link now, but I believe they are in the neighborhood of 70lbs of recoil. As a comparison, a 180gr '06 load has around 20lbs of recoil.

If you want to get really froggy, shoot a few of the bench. I've had to pattern a few turkey guns this way, and it is freakin' unpleasant.


This. I have a 12 ga Rem 870 in 3.5". With 2 1/4 oz magnum turkey loads it is without doubt the hardest kicking gun I've ever shot. I'm going to change the stock because it recoils up into my cheekbone every shot and I think the angle is incorrect.

I'm not partucularly recoil sensitive either and have shot my 300 RUM upwards of 55 times in one session during initial load development. My Ferret 50 by comparison is a prolonged shove without nearly the firearm velocity.
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 11:46:43 AM EST
I'm not recoil sensitive either, but I will admit I do not like patterning turkey guns!!
Link Posted: 7/22/2008 1:42:04 PM EST
add a mercury recoil buffer + muzzle brake and good recoil pad .I can shoot 20 rds thru my 375 h$h before it hurts.
Top Top