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Posted: 10/28/2004 3:31:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:36:52 AM EST
What the hell were Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton doing in church last week with John Kerry?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:37:52 AM EST
O Church property during officially church events I have no problem with this. There is a fine line between a church praying for someone and a church endorsing someone and then leading the congregation in prayer for that person.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:40:02 AM EST

Under IRS regulations, churches that are tax-exempt organizations cannot openly advocate for candidates for office and can only use a small percentage of their budgets on political activity.


How in the world does Kerry get away with this. A few weeks ago, Kerry attended a church service in East Cleveland. I think he is trying to become our second black president...
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:41:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:41:14 AM EST
whoever made that ruling will smoke a turd in hell
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:41:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By sydney7629:
What the hell were Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton doing in church last week with John Kerry?



Losing their tax exempt status??


Probably not, but that would be nice.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:46:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
O Church property during officially church events I have no problem with this. There is a fine line between a church praying for someone and a church endorsing someone and then leading the congregation in prayer for that person.


SGatr15



I have a problem with any gubment institution telling me what the fuck I can do or pray for period!



+ a billion.

.gov will soon regulate what you think, too.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:48:39 AM EST
Torn.

I don't like the idea of political speech being regulated by .gov, but SCOTUS already upheld McCain-Finegold saying The First can be limited if gooberment has a "compelling interest" to do so.

On the other hand churches are generally tax-exempt orgs so I don't like the idea that they can use their pulpit to push political ideas.

Again, very torn on this one.

But the idea that Kerry has used churches to push his socialist horseshit on the public and President Bush has been specifically singled out as not being able to be a part of that is just insane.

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 3:57:38 AM EST
I've got no problem with the ruling. All tax exempt organizations should stay out of politics.

They should stick with talking about issues and then which way good Christians/Buddhists/Muslims should vote. Going so far as to lead prayers for one candidate should cost them their tax exempt status.

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 4:01:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 4:05:37 AM EST by virginia22]
I suppose this is political, so post has been pulled


Chris
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:26:17 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:29:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dino:
I've got no problem with the ruling. All tax exempt organizations should stay out of politics.

They should stick with talking about issues and then which way good Christians/Buddhists/Muslims should vote. Going so far as to lead prayers for one candidate should cost them their tax exempt status.




Yes!

Heaven forbid that people who hold a belief actually PRAY to a being you don't believe is up there to see realization of their candidate to win!

We can't have people worshipping as they choose and asking the deity of their choice for the outcome they would prefer!! That would just plain be silly!

I suppose that when Washington prayed for our victory in the Revolutionary War that he was wrong on that too. It was, after all, partly a political dispute....

Crimony. Sometimes you make halfway decent points and logical arguements. But at other times you post things like this.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:31:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/29/2004 5:57:09 AM EST by John_Wayne777]

Originally posted by John_Wayne777

For what it is worth, I do not buy this story.

People assembled in church can pray for whatever they like, and the .gov has absolutely no say in it. And the IRS, though they can be boorish and dumb at times, certainly can't be this stupid.

Barry Lynn's organization has made a lot of noise and a lot of threats, but not a single church in this nation has had their tax status touched or revoked because of the content of their sermons being too "political." Lynn and his merry band of idiots are trying to scare Christian pastors into shutting up, and trying to put enough fear into Christian churches to be silent.

It will not work. None of Lynn's actions attempts have survived the challenge of court yet.



I ammend this post to say that NOW I buy this story based on the same thing happening to the NAACP:

www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-usirs1029,0,4959347,print.story?coll=ny-top-headlines

I am not a fan of all the NAACP stands for these days, but that does not mean that the people in that organization have no right to speak out in favor of a candidate or a position. My support for or against candidates is all about their stand on issues important to me.

It is perfectly acceptable for a pastor to stand before his congregation and say that Christianity is incompatible with abortion, and that Christian voters are incompatible with pro-choice candidates.

It is equally acceptable for Julian Bond to say that the NAACP stands for advancing black people and that the Bush tax cuts are incompatible with that goal.

It may be complete bull, but he is still free to say it.

The bottom line is that the government is trying to use the force of law to REGULATE WHAT PEOPLE CAN AND CANNOT SAY ON IMPORTANT ISSUES OF THE DAY AND MATTERS OF GOVERNMENT.

Even if the penalty is financial, it is still utterly against the premise of the 1st ammendment.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:32:55 AM EST
Hello, IRS?

FUCK OFF!

Amen!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:41:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 5:42:26 AM EST by arowneragain]
Half the congregation at my little church is democratic.

I don't go to church to argue about somthing as divisive as politics.

I have very, very strong beliefs, that I have pondered prayerfully.

But I DO NOT argue said beliefs in God's House.

There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:43:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Half the congregation at my little church is democratic.

I don't go to church to argue about somthing as divisive as politics.

I have very, very strong beliefs, that I have pondered prayerfully.

But I DO NOT argue said beliefs in God's House.

There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.



It may not be, but does that give the IRS the right to say you cant?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:43:57 AM EST
Church. It's a business.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:44:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Brothers and Sisters gather round and listen to what Brother Hiram has to say... Lordy! Can I get an Amen?

The devil... the DEVIL I say has done us wrong... can I get an Amen?

The oppressive hand of the government wants to tell us who we can pray for... ohhhh Lordy!

Jesus, said give Ceaser his due and give the Holy Father His... Well Ceaser isn't satisfied with his due and wants to deny God His! Say it isn't so say it isn't SO!

Brothers and Sisters... it IS true... The devil says we can not pray for our president... we can not pray for four more years of the safety and strength he has provided! If we do pray for the president we might lose our church. Well, we can't afford to lose that... We can't afford to lose our congregation... so we will hold our prayers in our hearts if we can not voice the from the pews! Can I get an Amen?

So Brothers and Sisters, please understand that the law says we can not pray for President Bush here today, but who we pray for at home is our business, who we pray for in the voting booth is our business and the devil ain;t gonna stop us! Halleluiah!

------------------------

Nope, no need for prayer in church... just paint it as religious oppression that you can't, and fire up your base!




TESTIFY BROTHER HIRAM!!!! Halleluiah!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:44:47 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:49:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Brothers and Sisters gather round and listen to what Brother Hiram has to say... Lordy! Can I get an Amen?

The devil... the DEVIL I say has done us wrong... can I get an Amen?

The oppressive hand of the government wants to tell us who we can pray for... ohhhh Lordy!

Jesus, said give Ceaser his due and give the Holy Father His... Well Ceaser isn't satisfied with his due and wants to deny God His! Say it isn't so say it isn't SO!

Brothers and Sisters... it IS true... The devil says we can not pray for our president... we can not pray for four more years of the safety and strength he has provided! If we do pray for the president we might lose our church. Well, we can't afford to lose that... We can't afford to lose our congregation... so we will hold our prayers in our hearts if we can not voice the from the pews! Can I get an Amen?

So Brothers and Sisters, please understand that the law says we can not pray for President Bush here today, but who we pray for at home is our business, who we pray for in the voting booth is our business and the devil ain;t gonna stop us! Halleluiah!

------------------------

Nope, no need for prayer in church... just paint it as religious oppression that you can't, and fire up your base!



Amen brother Hiram, Amen from the back row! Go on with your bad self!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:54:37 AM EST
I think I am going to go to church this Sun and pray for Bush to win..
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 5:55:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 5:56:59 AM EST by arowneragain]

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:


There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.




It is if the politics are interfering with the way you want to worship, pray or believe.



Make no mistake, I see your point. The IRS has no business telling a church how to pray.

I just think the church has no business praying for one candidate over the other in the first place.


Presents an insteresting dilemna, no?

Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's - Jesus Christ

Considering that, I have a responsibility as a Christian to vote. And Christians should be like-minded, 'of one accord' (do a search of the New Testament for 'one accord'), so to speak. So I guess we SHOULD let our churches make the decision as to who we should vote for...then, as good members, we should respect that decision.

Considering what I've been watching on the news lately, I think it's safe to say that the Christian vote is headed for Bush.

If that is the case, maybe we 'should' pray for Bush (as a group, not as individuals).

Not easy things to ponder, and not a matter to be decided by a lightweight such as myself.


edit: but I agree that the IRS can go pound sand.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:06:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Half the congregation at my little church is democratic.

I don't go to church to argue about somthing as divisive as politics.

I have very, very strong beliefs, that I have pondered prayerfully.

But I DO NOT argue said beliefs in God's House.

There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.



The Church has EVERY RIGHT and EVERY RESPONSIBILITY to be involved in the governing of the nation. A wise man and founding father once said that if good men are silent and do nothing, evil men will win the day.

The Church has a responsibility to speak to the issues of the day and to the right and wrong of them. They are not to be extensions of the DNC and RNC, but they are to stand for what is right and acceptable, preaching the word and then VOTING the word.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:10:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Half the congregation at my little church is democratic.

I don't go to church to argue about somthing as divisive as politics.

I have very, very strong beliefs, that I have pondered prayerfully.

But I DO NOT argue said beliefs in God's House.

There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.



The Church has EVERY RIGHT and EVERY RESPONSIBILITY to be involved in the governing of the nation. A wise man and founding father once said that if good men are silent and do nothing, evil men will win the day.

The Church has a responsibility to speak to the issues of the day and to the right and wrong of them. They are not to be extensions of the DNC and RNC, but they are to stand for what is right and acceptable, preaching the word and then VOTING the word.



Read my second post.

I don't disagree....I'm just taking this opportunity to make sure that I SHOULD agree.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:17:12 AM EST
Much like prayer in school, I think there is not a thing that the IRS can do to stop someone form privately praying in their church of choice, for whatever they like.

Uh, just so the IRS knows, in my church, the Church of Hielo, I am praying quite fervently that Bush wins, Neener-Neener-Neener!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:19:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By sydney7629:
What the hell were Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton doing in church last week with John Kerry?



The IRS will only investigate/prosecute if its Republicans. They won't go a mile within Jesse Jackson, Sharpton, or any of the other demagogues.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:21:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dino:
I've got no problem with the ruling. All tax exempt organizations should stay out of politics.

They should stick with talking about issues and then which way good Christians/Buddhists/Muslims should vote. Going so far as to lead prayers for one candidate should cost them their tax exempt status.




This is not a good idea. Either "separation of chuch and state" works both ways, or it's less a separation and more a 'right' for the government to regulate religious speech - in institutions constitutionally exempt from such meddling.

Speech is not free when you need to pay the government to engage in it. People can endorse whoever they want, in groups or alone, when no government resources are involved. Whether that's black churches praying for Kerry to win, or other churches praying for Bush, it's none of the IRS's business to regulate. Period.

Personally, I don't approve of congregations praying for specific candidates. But what I detest is the .gov muzzle, and those who welcome it so readily.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:27:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Hello, IRS?

FUCK OFF!

Amen!



My sentiments exactly +1
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:03:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 7:05:12 AM EST by FLGreg]

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41145

IRS: Churches can't pray for Bush victory
Ruling says tax-exempt groups prohibited from asking God to intervene


a letter of clarification requested by a traveling minister, the Internal Revenue Service has declared people gathered in tax-exempt churches can't pray for President Bush to win the election on Tuesday.

[snip]


As WorldNetDaily reported...[/b




Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

For what it is worth, I do not buy this story.

People assembled in church can pray for whatever they like, and the .gov has absolutely no say in it. And the IRS, though they can be boorish and dumb at times, certainly can't be this stupid.

Barry Lynn's organization has made a lot of noise and a lot of threats, but not a single church in this nation has had their tax status touched or revoked because of the content of their sermons being too "political." Lynn and his merry band of idiots are trying to scare Christian pastors into shutting up, and trying to put enough fear into Christian churches to be silent.

It will not work. None of Lynn's actions attempts have survived the challenge of court yet.



I don't either. I'd like to see a copy of that "clarification letter".

But, if this is the case, they should be all over that Liberty City "church" that had that pro-SKerry rally in Miami a few weeks ago.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:33:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Half the congregation at my little church is democratic.

I don't go to church to argue about somthing as divisive as politics.

I have very, very strong beliefs, that I have pondered prayerfully.

But I DO NOT argue said beliefs in God's House.

There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.



The Church has EVERY RIGHT and EVERY RESPONSIBILITY to be involved in the governing of the nation. A wise man and founding father once said that if good men are silent and do nothing, evil men will win the day.

The Church has a responsibility to speak to the issues of the day and to the right and wrong of them. They are not to be extensions of the DNC and RNC, but they are to stand for what is right and acceptable, preaching the word and then VOTING the word.



Read my second post.

I don't disagree....I'm just taking this opportunity to make sure that I SHOULD agree.



I was typing my response when your second post went up, so I couldn't read it.

I certainly don't want the DNC or RNC version of Christianity. But God has given us eyes to see and ears to hear and to be able to judge between good and evil.

What candidate supports abortion? What candidate supports the encroachment of religious freedoms? What candidate generally supports the homosexual activists? What candidate supports making us increasingly subject to global organizations who are hostile to the causes of justice and the Gospel? What candidate says that his "faith" does not "interfere" with his decision making?

Based on the answers to those questions and knowing the will of God as taught by the Word and witnessed by the Holy Spirit, we can determine who stands for what. There are often times when we cannot see the truth, but Christ is Light, and He can expose the truth.

We CAN know who God proclaims the better candidate by genuinely searching for His will.

I believe with every fiber of my being that George Bush is the man God wishes me to vote for. Nevertheless I have prayed and sought His will on the matter, and I feel a peace in my spirit about casting a vote for Bush.

I and my church are also praying that God would raise up Godly leaders all across this nation in the House, Senate, and in the courts to stop the march of evil that is killing so many. ALL power comes from the Lord, even if it is used improperly by men that are entrusted with it. God raises up kings and casts them down, and I have prayed that He will give us righteous leaders.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:44:41 AM EST
So, what is .gov going to do to enforce this? Encircle the church with JBT's and tanks, set it on fire, and shoot those that run out?

wganz

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:48:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
O Church property during officially church events I have no problem with this. There is a fine line between a church praying for someone and a church endorsing someone and then leading the congregation in prayer for that person.


SGatr15



I have a problem with any gubment institution telling me what the fuck I can do or pray for period!



All these churches have to do is give up their tax exempt status.

I'm tired of subsidizing them with MY tax dollars. Talk about tax money going for welfare, I'm tired of my tax money going for religion.

And before you tell me how all those churches just use the money for good, I'll tell you how the Catholic church owns half the commercial real estate in Manhatten and how the profits from those holding go for some pretty cushy living for a few.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:49:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:52:06 AM EST
I have a question.

Shouldn't this forbid Reverand Kerry or any other political cantidate from appearing in the pulpits of churches every Sunday? Kerry has been in the pulpit of a different Black Baptist Church every week for the last month.

In any event, this is the most blatant infringement on the first amendment I have ever seen in my entire life. What happens when preachers want to stand up and say Gay Marriage or Abortion is wrong? Are they now crossing the line into political speech, and there by breaking the tax codes! It's total bullshit!

This nation was founded on religous freedom! Churches have a long history of being places of moral and political guidance to their members. If you cannot excercise your right to free speech in a church, then where can you excercise it!

I personally am more enraged over this than I have ever been over any other issue in my entire life!

And for those of you who feel that Tax Exempt status means the Government has the right to interfere with the message being sent from the pulpit, you are dead wrong! If anything, the Tax Exempt status gives the government LESS control over what comes from the pulpit!

The government has absolutely no power to dictate what anyone in any church can or cannot say from the pulpit, and they have absolutely no power to dictate what a church can and cannot pray for! The first amendment insures BOTH the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion. The IRS has just made a 2 pronged attack on the first amendment!

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:52:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 7:53:29 AM EST by arowneragain]

Originally Posted By jimb100:

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
O Church property during officially church events I have no problem with this. There is a fine line between a church praying for someone and a church endorsing someone and then leading the congregation in prayer for that person.


SGatr15



I have a problem with any gubment institution telling me what the fuck I can do or pray for period!



All these churches have to do is give up their tax exempt status.

I'm tired of subsidizing them with MY tax dollars. Talk about tax money going for welfare, I'm tired of my tax money going for religion.

And before you tell me how all those churches just use the money for good, I'll tell you how the Catholic church owns half the commercial real estate in Manhatten and how the profits from those holding go for some pretty cushy living for a few.



My church owns about 4 acres of land, half of which is a cementary, plus a building, the parsonage, the van we use to transport those who can't drive, and enough cash to buy a good used car.

I haven't seen your tax dollars lift a finger in my church.

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:55:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 8:11:16 AM EST by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By jimb100:

Originally Posted By ilikelegs:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
O Church property during officially church events I have no problem with this. There is a fine line between a church praying for someone and a church endorsing someone and then leading the congregation in prayer for that person.


SGatr15



I have a problem with any gubment institution telling me what the fuck I can do or pray for period!



All these churches have to do is give up their tax exempt status.

I'm tired of subsidizing them with MY tax dollars. Talk about tax money going for welfare, I'm tired of my tax money going for religion.

And before you tell me how all those churches just use the money for good, I'll tell you how the Catholic church owns half the commercial real estate in Manhatten and how the profits from those holding go for some pretty cushy living for a few.




The government doesn't give money to churches (Bush proposed it, but the congress shot him down)! Tax Exempt means that the donations and tithes that people give to the church are not subject to tax.

Please obtain a fact or two before you exposing your foolishness.

Edited to remove personal insults.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:02:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:06:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:


My church owns about 4 acres of land, half of which is a cementary, plus a building, the parsonage, the van we use to transport those who can't drive, and enough cash to buy a good used car.

I haven't seen your tax dollars lift a finger in my church.


Well it does sort of, your church recieves money in, which is uses to pay employees, keep the lights on etc, just like my business-however your church does not have to pay taxes on it's income, so it gets 100% of every dollar, I pay taxes and get around .50 on the dollar. Basically it gets the same government infrastructure as everyone else in the country without paying for it.

This is a bad example because it's more a county or state cost-but if the church starts on fire the fire department comes and puts is out but the church pays nothing towards supporting the fire department, or the military, or the highways etc. Part of keeping tax exept status is that the IRS limits the involvement of charities in politics. If the church gets involved in politics and loses it's tax exempt status it would not only have to pay taxes on the contributions the congregation makes, but you would also lose the right to deduct that from your taxes-which in a way also affects everyone else's tax burden because you pay a little less in taxes because you (I hope!) deduct your contributions to the church.

But then tax law wasn't exactly my best class so don't shoot the messenger.



The church is not a for profit organization. It's primary purpose for existence is not political. But that does not mean that it is barred from anything political.

The church is made up of PEOPLE who pay their taxes just like everyone else. (And even with the tax breaks on my church contributions, I still pay an ungodly ammount in taxes...) They have the right to organize around their faith and publicly stand for something, and the .gov has no buisness trying to penalize people financially for doing so.

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:09:34 AM EST
This isn’t a religious issue, it’s a tax exempt issue.

Churches that don’t ask for tax exempt status can support any political candidate they want.

Also, Congress could repeal the law that prohibits political activity by tax exempt organizations.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:11:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By jimb100:

All these churches have to do is give up their tax exempt status.

I'm tired of subsidizing them with MY tax dollars. Talk about tax money going for welfare, I'm tired of my tax money going for religion.

And before you tell me how all those churches just use the money for good, I'll tell you how the Catholic church owns half the commercial real estate in Manhatten and how the profits from those holding go for some pretty cushy living for a few.



How exactly are you subsidizing them with YOUR tax dollars?

You compare this to welfare... I suppose you're under the (mistaken) impression that the govt uses YOUR tax dollars to FUND THE CHURCH, right?

Tax exempt, they don't pay taxes for things purchased for NON-PROFIT use. That's it.

They don't get "free stuff" from the govt.

They don't get tax exemptions for things purchased for resale or profit (bookstores, etc).

They don't get a freaking penny of YOUR tax dollars.

Sheesh, ignorance these days.

If you think the catholic church is using it's NON PROFIT status FOR PROFIT, you should figure out how and have the church investigated.

FWIW, if you do come up with this proof, I'll be the first to back you up in helping revoke their non profit status.

Either you are correct, and they are illegally using their non profit status, or you are just whining and moaning because they don't have to pay tax.

If they're wrong, then do something to help take them down, like offer proof.



As to the subject of this thread. The govt should keep it's nose out of the church's business.

If you're worried someone or some organization will influence peoples decision on election day, then we need to censor EVERYTHING, including media stations, schools, relatives/friends, and PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGNS.

People can make their own decisions. If they don't agree with what's being shown/spoken to them about something... IGNORE IT, or find something else to watch/somewhere else to attend church.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:14:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 8:15:03 AM EST by motown_steve]

Originally Posted By 199:
Also, Congress could repeal the law that prohibits political activity by tax exempt organizations.



Or how about just adhering to this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This IRS "ruling" has violated 3 of the 5 freedoms guaranteed by the first amendment!
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:20:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Half the congregation at my little church is democratic.

I don't go to church to argue about somthing as divisive as politics.

I have very, very strong beliefs, that I have pondered prayerfully.

But I DO NOT argue said beliefs in God's House.

There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.




Who says? It's not in the constitution nor is there anything that teaches against doing it, in the bible.

So, again, who says you can't?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:20:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:23:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 8:24:07 AM EST by longshot_va]
Yea....


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry Finds 'Faith' in Closing Days
www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/18/112717.shtml
...
He's visiting local churches, as he did over the weekend in Ohio, to expound on the alleged "political" lessons taught by Saint James and Saint Paul in the Bible, and to launch a political attack on the president.

"Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come," Kerry told the congregation at Mt. Olivet Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio, yesterday. "'Tis grace that brought me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home."

...

Politics and Pulpits Combine To Sway Swing-State Voterswww.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60086-2004Oct24.html
...
In Philadelphia, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) campaigned for Kerry in two black churches, telling the congregations that "the heart and soul of the African American community comes alive in worship." At each stop, he delivered a message that sought to tap both the spiritual and political connection between blacks and the Democratic Party and, more specifically, the Kennedy brand of liberalism.

Sen. John Edwards (N.C.) started his day at Allen Temple African Methodist Episcopal Church in Cincinnati, where the Democratic vice presidential nominee urged "record turnout" on Nov. 2 and asked the congregation to consider the impact the next president might have on the Supreme Court

...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

When is the IRS and the ACLU going to look into this?

-LS
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:28:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By NAKED-GUNMAN:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Half the congregation at my little church is democratic.

I don't go to church to argue about somthing as divisive as politics.

I have very, very strong beliefs, that I have pondered prayerfully.

But I DO NOT argue said beliefs in God's House.

There is a time and place for everything. Church isn't the place for politics.




Who says? It's not in the constitution nor is there anything that teaches against doing it, in the bible.

So, again, who says you can't?



Without trying to discount my later posts in this thread, let me add this:

I go to church to worship the Lord, and study His Word, and fellowship with other believers.

I honestly believe that, if we take the stance that ALL men are imperfect, then BOTH parties are, in an absolute sense, WRONG. Therefore, while we can argue for Bush or against Kerry all day long, in the end...both of 'em are wrong, to an extent, and we all know it. If my friends at church happen to be 'more' wrong than me, and I get self-righteous and argumentative with them while trying to point their errors out, I only create division.

It's a a very touchy issue. Yes, I try to 'convert' democrats......very, very slowly. Very slowly. Praying for Bush to be elected isn't the way to do it..not in the midst of democrats, anyway.

But I agree that the IRS can go pound sand.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:29:48 AM EST
So is the IRS acknowledging the existence of God?
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:30:33 AM EST
As a matter of fact, the bible tells us to pray for our leaders

I Timothy 2:1-3

1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour.

Pretty much settles the issue for me.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:32:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By longshot_va:
Yea....


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kerry Finds 'Faith' in Closing Days
www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/18/112717.shtml
...
He's visiting local churches, as he did over the weekend in Ohio, to expound on the alleged "political" lessons taught by Saint James and Saint Paul in the Bible, and to launch a political attack on the president.

"Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come," Kerry told the congregation at Mt. Olivet Baptist Church in Columbus, Ohio, yesterday. "'Tis grace that brought me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home."

...

Politics and Pulpits Combine To Sway Swing-State Voterswww.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60086-2004Oct24.html
...
In Philadelphia, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.) campaigned for Kerry in two black churches, telling the congregations that "the heart and soul of the African American community comes alive in worship." At each stop, he delivered a message that sought to tap both the spiritual and political connection between blacks and the Democratic Party and, more specifically, the Kennedy brand of liberalism.

Sen. John Edwards (N.C.) started his day at Allen Temple African Methodist Episcopal Church in Cincinnati, where the Democratic vice presidential nominee urged "record turnout" on Nov. 2 and asked the congregation to consider the impact the next president might have on the Supreme Court

...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

When is the IRS and the ACLU going to look into this?

-LS



The disgust every one of us feels over the above quotes should explain why *I* do not feel it is right to argue politics in church.

I would imagine that those who support Kerry preaching, as it were, to these congregations, feel just as strongly about him as I feel about bush....

I pray, once and for all, for all of arfcom to see, that God would lead His people to elect the president that will see His will done as closely as a politician can do.

Personally, I believe that Bush is that man. We'll know in a week.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:39:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 9:01:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:


My church owns about 4 acres of land, half of which is a cementary, plus a building, the parsonage, the van we use to transport those who can't drive, and enough cash to buy a good used car.

I haven't seen your tax dollars lift a finger in my church.


Well it does sort of, your church recieves money in, which is uses to pay employees, keep the lights on etc, just like my business-however your church does not have to pay taxes on it's income, so it gets 100% of every dollar, I pay taxes and get around .50 on the dollar. Basically it gets the same government infrastructure as everyone else in the country without paying for it.

This is a bad example because it's more a county or state cost-but if the church starts on fire the fire department comes and puts is out but the church pays nothing towards supporting the fire department, or the military, or the highways etc. Part of keeping tax exept status is that the IRS limits the involvement of charities in politics. If the church gets involved in politics and loses it's tax exempt status it would not only have to pay taxes on the contributions the congregation makes, but you would also lose the right to deduct that from your taxes-which in a way also affects everyone else's tax burden because you pay a little less in taxes because you (I hope!) deduct your contributions to the church.

But then tax law wasn't exactly my best class so don't shoot the messenger.



Ummm, OK.

The organization doesn't pay taxes for non-profit things. But they DO pay taxes for many things.

Employees pay income taxes, SS, medicare, etc. The employer matches that.

There are some local (not sure about state or fed) taxes for property and such.

The whole reason churches (and other non-profit) organizations don't pay taxes on it's "income" is that it's (as the status implies) all not for profit. It's not a "business", altho I'll concede, I've seen plenty of "churches" abuse their privledges and enter into the "business" model.

Our church has to pay fines when people trip the alarm/fire alarm and the police/FD are dispatched just like any other business I've ever had to work for.

Our church has to pay maintenance costs associated with new construction such as widening roads and putting in water drainage systems in order to build.

Churches do not have shareholders, they don't return profits for it's "investors" (in the way people would think of these terms related to a business). They don't return profits for their founders/owners/pastors, other than the salaries they pay out for work.

A GOOD church will invest most of the income it receives furthering its purpose... spreading the gospel, supporting those who are needy, providing a place of worship, etc. On top of the necessities like salaries and utilities.

If YOUR business switched over to "non-profit", you would cease to be a business, and you wouldn't make anything more than a normal salary. You would make ZERO cents off the dollar, instead of the 50 cents you make now.

Alternately, if your business stayed a business and donated food/money to other charities, or to the homeless or provided any of the other things many churches provide, you'd get a tax break, making you "get" more than 50 cents on your dollar (altho, you'd have less dollars to begin with, so you'd still make less).

If you wan't to run a "business", don't whine about churches (which aren't businesses) getting tax breaks.

If you want tax breaks, there are many things you can do to be "non-profitlike" and get them. Just don't expect that in the long run you'll end up with more money because of the tax breaks. There's a reason it's called charity.
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