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Posted: 9/7/2004 2:53:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 2:57:25 PM EST by Dave_A]
Seriously...

For all of you Internet Rambos who keep posting that nuclear weapons and/or the oft-famous MOAB device are the solution to every military problem in Iraq, especially Najaf and Fallujah...

And I'm not talking to FREE & the other guys who actually fought the war, just to all the 'if we loose a soldier, burn a city' types...

Think about this: WHY THE HELL ARE WE THERE?

The name of the war is Operation Iraqi Freedom

How is it advancing the cause of liberating Iraq if you indescriminately nuke/bomb/destroy the country?

Since only about 90-odd US troops were killed in the fight to topple Saddam, what is the meaning of the other 910 or so KIA 's sacrifice?

What is the point of all those men & women dying, if we are to throw the whole war away because it's easier to kill an entire city, or blow up a national shrine than fight the battle that needs to be fought?

Do you think the Terrorists care one bit for the surrounding population?
That they will lay down, roll over, and let a democratic government establish itself just because Iraqi civillians are dying, or because we blew up a national treasure?

OF COURSE THEY DON'T CARE. THEY'RE PRACTICALLY BEGGING US TO DO IT, BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT IF WE DO THEY AUTOMATICALLY WIN THE WAR

So you can cite WWII and the Japanese after Hiroshima/Nagasaki all you want, but there is one significant difference. The Emperor of Japan cared for his people, and did not want to see any more of them killed. So he surrendered.

The Terrorists in Iraq *do not care* about their fellow Iraqis (they have killed many times more Iraqis than Americans), and thus we cannot use mass destruction to force their surrender. All that would do is unite the country (which is 60-80% on OUR side right now) behind the enemy.

All we can do is continue to fight the terrorists where we find them with direct fire weapons & precision air strikes (one target, one small bomb, etc)...


Now, I can understand we have some folks here who want to bet against America, and say that the Iraqis cannot handle freedom, that because they are Arabs or Muslims, they are not worth our efforts. Fine, go ahead...

But first, realize that every time we have liberated a country before, be it Germany, Japan, or Russia, we have been told that 'Those (whoevers) are not ready for Democracy, because they are (too backward, wouldn't fight for it, whatever)... And EVERY TIME THIS WAS SAID IT WAS WRONG!

Second, if you really believe this, then you logically should believe we have no place in Iraq. If you think the Arabs can't handle democracy, then join the Liberals in calling for an end to the war...

Because in that case, the logical conclusion is that IF IT IS NOT WORTH LIBERATING IRAQ, THERE IS NO REASON FOR ANOTHER US SOLDIER, SAILOR OR MARINE TO DIE THERE!


So enough of the Keyboard Commando bullshit...,

Are you FOR THE WAR AND THE MISSION (they are inseparable), or AGAINST THE WAR BECAUSE THE MISSION IS NOT WORTH IT?

Choose a side, but enough with the goddamn bullshit nonsense about just blasting stuff like it's our pet demolition range...

As for me, I am FOR THE WAR AND THE MISSION

Which is a good thing, because if I get my appointment, I will end up fighting it...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 2:54:18 PM EST
agreed.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 2:58:03 PM EST
TURN IT INTO A PARKING LOT!!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:01:12 PM EST
...no you are wrong it is called Iraqi freedom because at the moment the consensus of a number of people who know alot more about how the world works think that is the best way to make us safer as a nation.

At some point the strategic tactical balance may change, and the best way to make us safe may shift from get the individual bad guys and make the rest happy, to kill enough of them that they leave us alone.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:02:10 PM EST
I have a belief that sometimes things were never meant to be. God has a plan for everyone and everything, and it may not include letting the middle east survive.

We have to consider ALL the possibilities.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:07:55 PM EST
I say we kill 'em all. The bad guys, that is.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:09:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:10:17 PM EST
Funny, a big basis of your opinion is the result of our USING A NUKE OR TWO.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:10:38 PM EST
I'll agree with you up to a point, Dave.

But if we continue to put pressure on shitbags like al Sadar and the jackass running the terrorist operations in Fallujah, right up to the point where they are BEGGING to negotiate for their survival, and then agree with them that it was all just a big misunderstanding and let them go so they can regroup and rearm and then attack us again, then we are wasting the lives of our warriors.

We either "put their heads on a stick" or put them in jail with Saddam. Negotiations are doing nothing but strengthening their resolve to kill more of us.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:10:58 PM EST
So what the hell do we have all these nukes for if we never use them?
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:14:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By DPeacher:
I'll agree with you up to a point, Dave.

But if we continue to put pressure on shitbags like al Sadar and the jackass running the terrorist operations in Fallujah, right up to the point where they are BEGGING to negotiate for their survival, and then agree with them that it was all just a big misunderstanding and let them go so they can regroup and rearm and then attack us again, then we are wasting the lives of our warriors.

We either "put their heads on a stick" or put them in jail with Saddam. Negotiations are doing nothing but strengthening their resolve to kill more of us.



That, I agree with 100%

There has been one time when negotiations were a good idea, and that was to get Al Sadr out of the Ali shrine...

Apart from that, find em & finish 'em...

With rifles, tanks, and precision fire support, of course...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:15:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 3:15:20 PM EST by KBaker]

Originally Posted By M4arc:
TURN IT INTO A PARKING LOT!!!

Yeah?

And WHERE DO WE STOP?!?
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:15:55 PM EST
A weapon unused is a useless weapon!

(just kidding, I agree with ya)
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:16:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
At some point the strategic tactical balance may change, and the best way to make us safe may shift from get the individual bad guys and make the rest happy, to kill enough of them that they leave us alone.



Which, we have allready done.

You see, without Saddam, Iraq is no longer a threat, as the individual who made it one is sitting in a jail cell. The reason we are there is to reform the country.

At this point, if we are not going to reform the country, then we should leave & use our forces elsewhere...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:17:44 PM EST
NUKE IT!!!
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:17:45 PM EST
I'll be more interested in your opinion after you get back from your tour of combat duty in Iraq, but I do agree with you that nukes and other WMDs are not called for.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:18:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Think about this: WHY THE HELL ARE WE THERE?




WMD?


Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:21:51 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:22:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
Funny, a big basis of your opinion is the result of our USING A NUKE OR TWO.



Which I commented on specifically.

In Japan, the enemy actually gave a rat's ass about the lives of their civillians.

In Iraq, the enemy does not care how many people die, all they want is to win.

Basically, what those who I disagree with basically advocate using the Iraqi people as hostages to get the Terrorists to give up...

They want the USA to say "Give up or we'll kill everyone in this city" for instance.

Now, the problem is, that THE ENEMY SAYS 'GO AHEAD, WE DON'T CARE'.

If they do not care hoe many people die, then you cannnot use something they do not care about to motivate them to do what you want!

Real simple...

Japan cared. The Emperor cared so much he got on the radio and said 'We are Surrendering'.

The Terrorists DO NOT CARE. They want us to kill as many innocents as possible, it makes their life a whole lot easier...

That is my beef. The 'Kill em all' position actually HELPS the guys who are killing our troops.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:23:23 PM EST
We have a difference of opinion. I support the war and the troops. I will continue to say whatever I feel like saying at the time.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:24:06 PM EST
There is one big difference here. The other countries you mentioned were/are populated by civilized people. The people we are dealing with now are savage barbarians.

Yes, I am for the war, and for the mission.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:24:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Think about this: WHY THE HELL ARE WE THERE?




WMD?





Now that is funny!

Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:24:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Think about this: WHY THE HELL ARE WE THERE?




WMD?





And maybe to capture a few rare Flying Pigs?

<- Read_Beard the wizeazz
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:28:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By C-4:
So what the hell do we have all these nukes for if we never use them?



+1

Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:32:06 PM EST
"....But...but....saying "nuke 'em all" impresses my junior high buddies, who have alot of free time to spend on the internet as none of us are shaving or can legally drive a car yet..."

Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:32:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
There is one big difference here. The other countries you mentioned were/are populated by civilized people. The people we are dealing with now are savage barbarians.

Yes, I am for the war, and for the mission.



Funny, the same thing was said -> AT THE TIME <- about EACH of those countries.

And the people who said it were WRONG then.

The Japanese, in perticular, were considered quite 'savage' (Pearl Harbor, Nanking, Battaan, Kamakazes... Sound familliar?).

Just like the Arabs, they were seen as 'savages' armed with advanced technology that someone else invented.

History would thus indicate that they are WRONG now...

P.S. This use of Japan as an example is valid, as it referrs to the individual japs and their overall culture.

If we were fighting a guerilla war after an invasion of Japan had ended, nukes would not have worked. The only reason they worked is that (A) they were used on a country with a government firmly in control and able to surrender (a/o an insurgent force), and (B) partially because they had never been used before...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:35:29 PM EST
No it's NOT worth losing another Coalition servicemans life for…

Flatten the bits that threaten us, destroy their military ability and pull the fuck out! If they rebuild their military, nail it again. AND NO… WE DO NOT NEED TO USE NUKES UNLESS THEY HAVE THEM AS WELL…

You do seem totally wrapped up in this "Giving Democracy to the Middle East" arn't you… ever been there? Probably not because if you had you would know that the average Arab really couldn't give a flying fuck for democracy…

REALITY……

ARAB culture is based around macho and power, they respect 'Strong' leaders and despise the weak. To them a democratic government is weak because they let the 'people' tell the leaders what to do. This is why so may Iraqis still have a respect for Sadaam the 'Strong' leader.

Arabs are TRIBAL and their loyalty is to their tribe and local shiek, what he says goes… You can set up all the polling booths in the world but your average arab will ask his Sheik for guidance.

Democray is something you want or fight for… ever heard the saying "nothing aint worth nothing if its free"? Same with Democracy, you get handed it on a plate and you don't value it, fight for it and you do. As an American you of ALL people should realise this… the REASON Americans value democracy so highly is they had to fight to achieve it. You cannot impose democracy with the barrel of a gun.

Islamic laws and the Koran are mutually incompatible with democracy… as long as the Middle East a strong Islamic base, democracy has little chance of taking root.

Both Japan and Germany had functioning democracies before the Militarists took over, all we did was put things back to were they were… and since WHEN did we LIBERATE RUSSIA?

The ONLY country that is likely to form a stable and democratic Government in the region (other than Israel) is Iran… and the reason is simple… they are not Arabs and do not have the Tribal customs to inhibit the spread of democratic thought and the people actively seek democracy.
Notice!… the ONLY two democracies are going to be NON-ARAB!

So your off to OCS… and after that to the Iraq, I will wager you are going to find that all the 'reasoned debate' about the inherent sameness of all people will rapidly go out the window once you have your boots on the ground for 6 months.

But I'm not going to namecall… when I was doing my Officer training I thought I could put the world to rights and knew all the answers, my instructors and a year at the 'coalface' soon knocked that out of me and I realised the world is allways as we would like it or wish it to be.

Arab countries are basically stuck in a timewarp… they may LOOK like they are 'western' but they are still Middle Ages Fuedal Societies… and we spent 600 years getting up from there to the point we are at now. It is totally unrealistic to think we can bring them up to speed in a few years. You will find that they view the world in a completely different light to us, they want 'stability' but they are quite happy if a Dictator gives it to them.

And am I a 'Keyboard Commando"? Nope… been their, done that, worked in the region for the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and BP before and after the Iranian Revolution.

Andy
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:35:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By C-4:
So what the hell do we have all these nukes for if we never use them?



Deterrance....

So that if someone dares to use one on us we can make sure they never make that mistake twice...

So that when China says 'Don't intervene in Taiwan, we have 18 missiles & we will use them', we can say 'Well we've got 3,000 missiles. You do, you die'....

NOT so we can irradiate a country we spent 1.5 years fighting to save...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:36:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
I say we kill 'em all. The bad guys, that is.



hehehehehehe

MOAB Beeyatch
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:41:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By C-4:
So what the hell do we have all these nukes for if we never use them?



We have them so we don't have to use them...ironic, eh??? That's the nature of deterrence...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:42:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By C-4:
So what the hell do we have all these nukes for if we never use them?



Deterrance....

So that if someone dares to use one on us we can make sure they never make that mistake twice...

So that when China says 'Don't intervene in Taiwan, we have 18 missiles & we will use them', we can say 'Well we've got 3,000 missiles. You do, you die'....

NOT so we can irradiate a country we spent 1.5 years fighting to save...



WERD...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:43:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 3:43:26 PM EST by ar50troll]

Originally Posted By IamtheNRA:

Originally Posted By C-4:
So what the hell do we have all these nukes for if we never use them?



We have them so we don't have to use them...ironic, eh??? That's the nature of deterrence...



We just to play Devils advocate...perhaps using one ever couple of decades would kip the dipshits in check...
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:44:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar50troll:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
I say we kill 'em all. The bad guys, that is.



hehehehehehe

MOAB Beeyatch



ar50troll....

...makin' Texas proud for 1173 posts.

Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:44:19 PM EST
I say we just nuke Dave_A's house since he can't stand the 1st Ammendment. Fuck you Dave! I'll say what I feel any minute of the day on this board. As long as its withing the CoC of course.

With that said....NUKE THEM ALL
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:45:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By DOA:
I say we just nuke Dave_A's house since he can't stand the 1st Ammendment. Fuck you Dave! I'll say what I feel any minute of the day on this board. As long as its withing the CoC of course.

With that said....NUKE THEM ALL




hey fuck you ... I think he lives close enough that you might get me
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:50:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 3:57:10 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By vito113:
No it's NOT worth losing another Coalition servicemans life for… A perfectly valid position

Flatten the bits that threaten us, destroy their military ability and pull the fuck out! If they rebuild their military, nail it again. AND NO… WE DO NOT NEED TO USE NUKES UNLESS THEY HAVE THEM AS WELL…

You do seem totally wrapped up in this "Giving Democracy to the Middle East" arn't you… ever been there? Probably not because if you had you would know that the average Arab really couldn't give a flying fuck for democracy… No, I have not been there. I just look at the history from our side of the fence, and realize we have been 'giving' it away since 1914. It also happens to be the official policy of the current Administration (Bush has said so several times during the campaign),, so weather I agree with it or not, I will end op working for it.

REALITY……

ARAB culture is based around macho and power, they respect 'Strong' leaders and despise the weak. To them a democratic government is weak because they let the 'people' tell the leaders what to do. This is why so may Iraqis still have a respect for Sadaam the 'Strong' leader.

Arabs are TRIBAL and their loyalty is to their tribe and local shiek, what he says goes… You can set up all the polling booths in the world but your average arab will ask his Sheik for guidance.

Democray is something you want or fight for… ever heard the saying "nothing aint worth nothing if its free"? Same with Democracy, you get handed it on a plate and you don't value it, fight for it and you do. As an American you of ALL people should realise this… the REASON Americans value democracy so highly is they had to fight to achieve it. You cannot impose democracy with the barrel of a gun.

Islamic laws and the Koran are mutually incompatible with democracy… as long as the Middle East a strong Islamic base, democracy has little chance of taking root.

Both Japan and Germany had functioning democracies before the Militarists took over, all we did was put things back to were they were… and since WHEN did we LIBERATE RUSSIA?

Germany had Democracy imposed by the barrel of a gun (unless you count Kaiser Willhelm as an elected President), Japan was an Imperial nation that worshiped it's leader. And it is commonly considerd that under Reagan's leadership, we caused the downfall of the USSR (in a contest of economics, no less) and thus 'liberated' Russia and Eastern Europe from Communisim


The ONLY country that is likely to form a stable and democratic Government in the region (other than Israel) is Iran… and the reason is simple… they are not Arabs and do not have the Tribal customs to inhibit the spread of democratic thought and the people actively seek democracy.
Notice!… the ONLY two democracies are going to be NON-ARAB!

So your off to OCS… and after that to the Iraq, I will wager you are going to find that all the 'reasoned debate' about the inherent sameness of all people will rapidly go out the window once you have your boots on the ground for 6 months.

But I'm not going to namecall… when I was doing my Officer training I thought I could put the world to rights and knew all the answers, my instructors and a year at the 'coalface' soon knocked that out of me and I realised the world is allways as we would like it or wish it to be.

Arab countries are basically stuck in a timewarp… they may LOOK like they are 'western' but they are still Middle Ages Fuedal Societies… and we spent 600 years getting up from there to the point we are at now. It is totally unrealistic to think we can bring them up to speed in a few years. You will find that they view the world in a completely different light to us, they want 'stability' but they are quite happy if a Dictator gives it to them.

And am I a 'Keyboard Commando"? Nope… been their, done that, worked in the region for the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and BP before and after the Iranian Revolution.

I specifically excluded teh BTDT folks from that term and this thread, Andy... I was referring to the guys who have never and will never BTDT

Andy



And I respect your position, as well.

The point of this was that the valid positions are Liberate or Lrave.

That if we are not going to liberate, then we should get the hell out because there is no point in just sitting there losing soldier's lives so that we can use a country as a shooting/demo range: If we're going to 'free' Iraq, then fine, stay and fight to the last terrorist.

But if not, then there is no redeeming value to being there.

You, from a rather informed position, choose 'Leave'

Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:55:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By DOA:
I say we just nuke Dave_A's house since he can't stand the 1st Ammendment. Fuck you Dave! I'll say what I feel any minute of the day on this board. As long as its withing the CoC of course.

With that said....NUKE THEM ALL



Nice Hollywood-brand definition of the First Ammendment...

The way I see the 1st is like this:

You say something I disagree with

I have a right to voice my disagreement back.

Kept polite, on purpose...

And threatening to nuke my house would, I believe, violate the COC....

(And if you complain about that line, then go watch the Tonight Show and learn what a JOKE is)
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 3:58:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By ar50troll:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
I say we kill 'em all. The bad guys, that is.



hehehehehehe

MOAB Beeyatch



Your name is very descriptive....

On a scale of 1-10:

You're a '1'
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:03:31 PM EST
Insurgency.

Not easy, but we'll win.

I WISH people would remember...

...we're not done in that neighborhood:

Iran
Syria
etc.
etc.

All right there.
We need to stay in Iraq long enough, so that we can build our bases, and then attack the others from there.
Same with Afghanistan.
As long as AQ is no longer setting up training camps, and we maintain control of the High Speed Avenues of Approach into Iran and Syria....



....we're winning.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:03:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By vito113:




And I respect your position, as well.

The point of this was that the valid positions are Liberate or Lrave.

That if we are not going to liberate, then we should get the hell out because there is no point in just sitting there losing soldier's lives so that we can use a country as a shooting/demo range: If we're going to 'free' Iraq, then fine, stay and fight to the last terrorist.

But if not, then there is no redeeming value to being there.

You, from a rather informed position, choose 'Leave'




Fair enough, however I would disagree with your assertion about Germany… In the Wiemar Republic post WWI from 1918-33 there was a free democracy. Adoph Hitler was ELECTED in a free democratic vote! Once he was elected he grabbed power, but he was elected.

Also Japan had a functioning democracy as set up in the 19 Century

"The election of the House of Representative Last year in 2003 was the 43rd General Election. The 1st Election took place on July 1, 1890 just after Japanese Imperial Constitution came into force on November 29, 1989(the Promulgation on February 11, 1888). As the result the election, no less than 170 representatives of Constitutional Liberal party and Constitutional Democratic parties, both were anti-government parties, out of 300 the House members. "

www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/faq/japan/democracy.html

Andy
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:05:01 PM EST
I dont see anything wrong with making at least one parking lot.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:09:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 4:12:47 PM EST by M4Guru]
Fuck their freedom. Kill all those raghead bastards. Shoot the men, behead the women, burn the kids, pour the goldfish out of the bowls, etc. I fought for their goddam freedom for over a year which entitles me to that opinion.


I got an idea...
Kerry says we did it wrong
Iraq needs a president
Kerry needs a country

We could kill two birds with one stone!
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:10:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 4:10:51 PM EST by ar50troll]

Originally Posted By M4Guru:
Fuck their freedom. Kill all those raghead bastards. Shoot the men, behead the women, burn the kids, pour the goldfish out of the bowls, etc. I fought for their goddam freedom for over a year which entitles me to that opinion.



Ohh man.. Just had to get my post in B4 the almighty LOCK.
Now watch...it won't happen. I seem to be the anti lock lately?!?!
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:13:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 4:14:18 PM EST by M4Guru]
Locked for what?

that was only in reference to the Iraqis, not all the ragheads.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:15:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:16:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2004 4:16:01 PM EST by thebeekeeper1]
Locked.
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