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Posted: 10/8/2005 4:13:37 AM EDT
PLEASE GIVE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS MATTER KEEPING IN MIND THAT AN INDEPENDENT IRAQI GOV. WILL PROBABLY HAVE A HARD TIME SURVIVING IN THE LONG RUN DUE TO A RADICAL ISLAMIC INSURGENCY AND IT'S LOCATION IN REGARDS TO THE GEOPOLITICAL SCENE IN THAT REGION. THERE ARE SOME MUSLIM TEACHINGS AND DOCTRINE WHICH INSTRUCTS FOLLOWERS TO FIGHT ON FOR DECADES IF NOT CENTURIES.WHAT IS AND WILL BE YOU THINK, THE ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL IMPACT ON THE U.S., IF WE PROTRACT OUT THIS CONFLICT IN TERMS OF HOW WE FINANCE OUR MILITARY BUDGET MAINLY THROUGH DEFECIT, AND HOW THEY FINANCE THEIR'S? MY OPINION OF THIS SITUATION IS MIXED AND PERPLEXING.WHAT ARE YOUR'S?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:14:09 AM EDT
[#1]
I think your Caps Lock might be on.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:28:06 AM EDT
[#2]
Hell, I've been trying to get out of Kuwait and into Iraq for over a year!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:34:15 AM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
I think your Caps Lock might be on.

it was on for a reason son.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:39:06 AM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think your Caps Lock might be on.

it was on for a reason son.



To make it a pain in the ass to read?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:40:34 AM EDT
[#5]
YOU SURE WRITE LONG SENTENCES;
EXCEPT THAT LAST ONE.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:48:54 AM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
YOU SURE WRITE LONG SENTENCES;
EXCEPT THAT LAST ONE.

from AND huh?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 4:58:21 AM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
YOU SURE WRITE LONG SENTENCES;
EXCEPT THAT LAST ONE.



I think your punctuation is incorrect.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:03:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Finish what you start!
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:33:29 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
YOU SURE WRITE LONG SENTENCES;
EXCEPT THAT LAST ONE.



I think your punctuation is incorrect.



I think not.

A semicolon links independant clauses and is often
used where one might use a period.

In my earlier post, a period was not appropriate because the second
clause,"EXCEPT THAT LAST ONE" is not a complete sentence.
It could, therefore, not stand alone. Thus, I linked it  with a semicolon.

This isn't difficult. You should have learned it by the seventh grade.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:45:51 AM EDT
[#10]
Back to the subject....
We need to finish what we started.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:46:26 AM EDT
[#11]
This thread appears to be getting nowhere
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 5:51:43 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:02:24 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
This thread appears to be getting nowhere

please if you are not serious about this very important issue go play somewhere else.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:08:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Getting into it was a bad idea.

Leaving it half finished would almost be even worse idea.  We need to stay in until we've gotten Iraq stabilized and self sufficient (as Colin Powell said, "You break it, you bought it").  It'll take at least another decade before we've done our job (and it will cost far more lives), but to leave now will both abandon the Iraqi people to the wolves and show the world (and most importantly, our enemies within it) that we as a nation lack the resolve and the strength to accomplish the difficult tasks.  Weakness is not an option, in this case.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:08:47 AM EDT
[#15]
In my humble opinion,  our mistake is that we are being too nice. When we find that a city is an insurgent stronghold, we should completely level the city, no questions asked or answered. If a mosque is being used for military purposes, immediately destroy it and its occupants. Same for schools, neighborhoods, etc. The only way to win is to destroy the will of the enemy to fight. Whether they "like" us or not has little to do with it.  War is hell.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:09:33 AM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think your Caps Lock might be on.

it was on for a reason son.



All caps with no punctuation adds nothing to your query and and makes it a pain in the ass to read.  Is that the reason you left it on?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:13:22 AM EDT
[#17]
I was not in favor of OPERATION IRAQI FREEDOM.  I served in OPERATION DESERT STORM and realized then that the US, and the "Coalition", did not have the political will to invade Iraq, occupy it for the necessary length of time, and create a stable Iraqi democracy - using the German occupation as a example (Ba'athism is secular Arabic 'nationalist socialism').  George H. W. Bush and Norman Schwazkopf agreed.

However, we did invade Iraq and topple Saddam.  We must finish what we have undertaken.  There is no 'exit strategy' save victory.  Compromise is political defeat (as it was in Vietnam).  War is the extension of politics by other means, therefore military victory is meaningless unless it leads to political victory.

Unfortunately, no one seems to have a clue as to how to defeat an insurgency, despite the historical examples and their 'lessons learned'.  The other day that paragon of military genius, Mr. William Clinton, stated that the only successful counter-insurgency was the Malay Emergency.  Besides being a false statement, if that is so then why aren't we utilizing the lessons of that campaign?

We can not defeat an enemy we refuse to name.  To depart now will lead to our inevitable defeat at the hands of the jihadists, the destruction of our civilization and our forced submisson to a world caliphate.  To be clearer, it means the end of America - and those "Americans" that lust for that will find it not to their liking (except for the jihadis in our midst).
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:15:08 AM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This thread appears to be getting nowhere

please if you are not serious about this very important issue go play somewhere else.



Well if your not serious about typing like more then a 12 year old, how the hell am i supposed to take you seriously?
Honestly, look at it. It looks like it should read OMG t3h !raq!! 5h0uld \/\/3 b &h3r3??
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:15:40 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
YOU SURE WRITE LONG SENTENCES;
EXCEPT THAT LAST ONE.



I think your punctuation is incorrect.



I think not.

A semicolon links independant clauses and is often
used where one might use a period.

In my earlier post, a period was not appropriate because the second
clause,"EXCEPT THAT LAST ONE" is not a complete sentence.
It could, therefore, not stand alone. Thus, I linked it  with a semicolon.

This isn't difficult. You should have learned it by the seventh grade.



Learned in 7th, forgot by 11th.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:16:22 AM EDT
[#20]
I don't take anyone seriously if they write long sentances in all CAPS. It's very hard to read. Communication has standards.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:17:00 AM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:
We can not defeat an enemy we refuse to name.



Pretty much says it all.  I'd say that's sig line material.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:20:00 AM EDT
[#22]
1) The invasion was the right thing to do 10 years ago, and was still the right thing to do when GW did it...

2) The US allways has a 'Up, down Up' or 'Down, Up' cycle in long term military ops, where we fall 'down' then learn how to stand 'up' again... WRT Iraq, we should be headed into the 'Up' phase right around now...

3) It is quite possible to win in the area, ARFCOM religeous experts aside... Give the people 'secure' cities, one at a time, and you build a power base from there... Fallujah has been successfully 'removed' from the news as an insurgent stronghold, Ramadi is probably next...

Seriously, the 'doom and gloom' is the result of a population that hasn't seen a successful major war in the last 40 years... The concept of a 3-7yr fight is foreign to anyone who's not a history buff... So when the war doesn't end, they get panicky...

Iraq is winnable, the key is (1) don't get to timid/PC, (2) don't go apeshit & start burning cities... Find the middle ground, work with/respect the locals, and such... The 'oil spot' theory is a good one...

Now, the question is: will I still think this when I get there (I assume that within the year I'll be assigned to a unit going to Iraq)...

We'll see...
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:20:02 AM EDT
[#23]
When we find insurgent strong holds we will send them a  strongly worded letter in  all caps.
That will show them.

seriously  we will have too have a presence in iraq for a long time . We have no choice now, we can not let it become  how  Afghanistan was before 911
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:21:51 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
When we find insurgent strong holds we will send them a  strongly worded letter in  all caps.
That will show them.

seriously  we will have too have a presence in iraq for a long time . We have no choice now, we can not let it become  how  Afghanistan was before 911



CAPS will definately let them know we're serious. I wouldnt mess with a guy who used all CAPS.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:23:26 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

 Please change the title of your thread to:  "Is CAP cool or not, and is my grammar, punctuation OK?"

 As far as Iraq situation:

 Finish the whole job....Don't go in half-ass....Don't haul ass half way...If it's too hot in the kitchen, turn on the fan or air condition, and keep cooking until it's done...

 

This thread is about what most americans hold dearest to their hearts.MONEY.The question is and still remains this,can we do this thing without serious and irreversible economic curcumstances.Im not saying by any means the war in and of it's self is not justified not by a long shot.The question is about massive debt and what will this do to us over a long period of time.I BELEVE THE QUESTION IS A VALID ONE. Are there any alternatives that anyone out there can share with us.You idiots who want to play around with who's down with correctness of sentence structure and punctuation and is CAPS lockED on or off can go to GET FUCKED.COM.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:31:46 AM EDT
[#26]
MODS?  Are any of you guys going to bust this for conduit violation?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:45:37 AM EDT
[#27]
I say OUT OF IRAQ!!!

...and...

INTO SYRIA!!!

I commission in May in the Army, so I don't want to hear anybody telling me to put my money where my mouth is either-it's already there.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:52:46 AM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
I say OUT OF IRAQ!!!

...and...

INTO SYRIA!!!

I commission in May in the Army, so I don't want to hear anybody telling me to put my money where my mouth is either-it's already there.



They're third on the list. Right after Iran.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 6:55:22 AM EDT
[#29]
When are we going to get out of Germany?  Korea?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:01:40 AM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:09:37 AM EDT
[#31]
I am trying to understand the global picture
how money and history effect events that are most likely beyond anyones controle
i do agree that once we entered Iraq that we should stay for the long haul but we are not the first country in history to try and shape the world as we see fit
First i am reminded of Rome a civiliztion from which we adopt alot of law,rule,government, and archatecture
Second i am reminded of Great Britain who now is not quite so great seeing that all they have left is a little island
Third i am reminded of WWII Hitler trying to take over all of Eourope and beyond

I am not saying that we as a nation share in any of the bad or good actions of the three items i just mentioned i most certainly do not compare us to hitler and his killing of thousands of inocent poeple

I do see certain thing that parrallel what we are doing
1. militarily we have streched our selves thin having bases all over the world and fighting wars as one gentleman said that havnt been clear victiory for 40 years
2. public support deminishing for our military ventures over seas
3. a strain on the population because of lack of recourses that are being used elsware because of the war
4. funding is always needed to wage war and a lot of it I am not shure that monetarily we can withstand a prolonged campaine  
5. political envolvement in the military has become entrenched that im not shure the job could get done if all the other factors were supporting it (what happens when new president takes over)  will a new pres create a change so drastic it will colapse all we have worked for up to now
6. i am told that we are taught history so as not to repeat it so it would be a good idea if some one would read it
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:09:57 AM EDT
[#32]
i reject the central premise in your argument that iraq will probably have a hard time surviving in the long run.  if your premise implies failure it is difficult to draw any other conclusion.

i suggest that a secure iraq while difficult is far from impossible.  five to ten years of military engagements is far cheaper then thirty or forty years in a passive, defensive state.

in one week will be see how the iraq's support the concept of democratic rule.  i expect to see similar enthusiasm as the last iraq elections with a significant increase in sunni participation.  i expect the constituition will undergo many changes.  the constitution may be rewritten, amended and rewritten again.  but the iraq people, despite their differences, understand that self-rule is better then rule by another saddam.
1)  the iraq people support a "democratic" government

iraq security forces are increasing in both numbers and competence see: billroggio.com/archives/2005/10/training_the_ir_1.php
military planners believe that u.s. may soon move towards a reduction of forces.  a few air bases and special forces contingents may be all that is necessary to maintain effective security.
2)  iraq security forces control cities, towns, and transportation routes at decreasing costs to the u.s..

if terrorism is religiously inspired anger directed at the us. then we must either absorb it or redirect it.  a free, secure, democratic iraq could stand as an alternative as to what islam is.  if the people of the middle-east come to want what iraq has it is more likely they will work to improve their lives then jihad the u.s.a.
3)  middle-easterners think:  terrorism is for losers.

iraq is rich in oil and it is cheaper to redirect rather then absorb attacks.  what alternative is there to military action?  we could dramatically increase our police forces and surveillance systems and wait passively for future attacks.  

imagine for a moment if al gore had won the election and the anti-war crowd was running the show and all the jihadists and al-queida leaders we have killed or captured were still alive today and we are instead waiting in our police state for their next attack.
4)  iraq can pay for itself and it takes money to make money.

So...  i maintain a democratic iraq is very possible and our current strategy is less expensive then the cowards way...
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:29:14 AM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:
In my humble opinion,  our mistake is that we are being too nice. When we find that a city is an insurgent stronghold, we should completely level the city, no questions asked or answered. If a mosque is being used for military purposes, immediately destroy it and its occupants. Same for schools, neighborhoods, etc. The only way to win is to destroy the will of the enemy to fight. Whether they "like" us or not has little to do with it.  War is hell.



Well said.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:31:35 AM EDT
[#34]
The ORIGINAL reason we went into Iraq didn't pan out, that being said Saddam needed to be gotten rid of anyway, so now that we are there I say stick it out to the end.

Hopefully we have learned from our mistakes in Vietnam and dont repeat history.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:37:53 AM EDT
[#35]
i agree that if things are done correctly that there will be a democacyin  iraq atleast for a short time
but it wont be long we will be looking for another president and there is no guarantee of a pro democracy irag president

the problem with a democracy is that the views conditions and tactics of the leadership can change  at the drop of a hat and the change doesnt have to agree with the majority of the population  

the world has been trying to change the middle east for better than 2000 years wars are embeded in their religious doctrin they will accept what they will if they wont accept  it wont happen

i believe this war in iraq in part is being viewed as a substitute for border security if we strengthen our border security then how are the majority of terrorists going to get in
the security on the southern border is being ignored for the most part as hundreds of millions of tax dollars are  being spent fighting a war that only half the people in the country support i believe  a greater focus should be put on southern border security and who we let in the country and on air planes

before 911 i remember seeing a program on tv about a device that scans a person and gives almost   Xrated view of that person every nook and craney   the scan time was under 2 minutes in six years U would think that these units would have been upgraded and made faster
where are these why arnt these being used u hear about them hear and there but all i hear is they cost to much  

untill we have the unity to secure our home land dont expect to be able to secure some one elses land whether it is for them or for us

the federal government doesnt even support private citizens watching the border in none violent observation
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:38:05 AM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:
MODS?  Are any of you guys going to bust this for conduit violation?



Conduit violations fall under the jurisdiction of Miss Utility.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:43:22 AM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:
The ORIGINAL reason we went into Iraq didn't pan out, that being said Saddam needed to be gotten rid of anyway, so now that we are there I say stick it out to the end.

Hopefully we have learned from our mistakes in Vietnam and dont repeat history.



Wasn't the basic mistake in Vietnam the belief that we could stick it out to the end?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:44:50 AM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The ORIGINAL reason we went into Iraq didn't pan out, that being said Saddam needed to be gotten rid of anyway, so now that we are there I say stick it out to the end.

Hopefully we have learned from our mistakes in Vietnam and dont repeat history.



Wasn't the basic mistake in Vietnam the belief that we could stick it out to the end?



No.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:45:49 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
The ORIGINAL reason we went into Iraq didn't pan out, that being said Saddam needed to be gotten rid of anyway, so now that we are there I say stick it out to the end.

Hopefully we have learned from our mistakes in Vietnam and dont repeat history.



Wasn't the basic mistake in Vietnam the belief that we could stick it out to the end?



No.



History would argue against you. We didn't stick it out.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:53:26 AM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This thread appears to be getting nowhere

please if you are not serious about this very important issue go play somewhere else.



Watch out…

MISTA BUSTA ALL CAPS in da house.

And what is your alternative cut and run... come on now lets get the truth out in the open.  Say what you really mean.

You lay out a bunch of knee jerk assumptions… and then try and hide behind economics. Come on out with it.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:56:53 AM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:
In my humble opinion,  our mistake is that we are being too nice. When we find that a city is an insurgent stronghold, we should completely level the city, no questions asked or answered. If a mosque is being used for military purposes, immediately destroy it and its occupants. Same for schools, neighborhoods, etc. The only way to win is to destroy the will of the enemy to fight. Whether they "like" us or not has little to do with it.  War is hell.



Bingo

Link Posted: 10/8/2005 7:59:54 AM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
The ORIGINAL reason we went into Iraq didn't pan out, that being said Saddam needed to be gotten rid of anyway, so now that we are there I say stick it out to the end.

Hopefully we have learned from our mistakes in Vietnam and dont repeat history.



Wasn't the basic mistake in Vietnam the belief that we could stick it out to the end?



No.



History would argue against you. We didn't stick it out.



No it does not… The North Vietnamesen would argue against you and have.

Sticking it out was not the problem in Vietnam. Not moving in to North Vietnam was the problem and making the cost of the War unbearable to them. A military directed unrelenting bombing campaign and a marginal move in to North Vietnam would have likely ended the war in 1966…

The North Vietnamese have admitted as much.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:10:35 AM EDT
[#43]
out, heres why the dollar has fell in value like a brick. other countries are no longer optimistic on receipt of the dollar for payment. realestate here in the us has increased dramatically because of a week dollar. gold has went from 250.. to 475.00 influenced by the weak dollar, canadian dollar is highes ever compared to dollar, europeans are flocking to buy property because the strong uero gives them a significant discount when exchanged. too damn expensive. theory what are we getting out of it?? I would vote stay if we kicked their ass and took all their gas. otherwise quit ruining my economy with lavish spending. besides what wmd???????????? smoke and mirrors
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:11:40 AM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:
In my humble opinion,  our mistake is that we are being too nice. When we find that a city is an insurgent stronghold, we should completely level the city, no questions asked or answered. If a mosque is being used for military purposes, immediately destroy it and its occupants. Same for schools, neighborhoods, etc. The only way to win is to destroy the will of the enemy to fight. Whether they "like" us or not has little to do with it.  War is hell.


Well, we did that with Falluja... many parts of the city were leveled, you don't hear it making headlines any more.

I think we should get out. You can't civilize a bunch of animals. Let them kill each other and if a Islamofascist regime takes hold, send in the army to do one thing: kill and kill and kill until all the Islamofascists are dead, then get out. Repeat as necessary. The end results is many Islamofascists dead and few US casualties.

The War on Terror takes priority into trying to put a three piece suit on a Bedouin.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:12:02 AM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:
out, heres why the dollar has fell in value like a brick. other countries are no longer optimistic on receipt of the dollar for payment. realestate here in the us has increased dramatically because of a week dollar. gold has went from 250.. to 475.00 influenced by the weak dollar, canadian dollar is highes ever compared to dollar, europeans are flocking to buy property because the strong uero gives them a significant discount when exchanged. too damn expensive. theory what are we getting out of it?? I would vote stay if we kicked their ass and took all their gas. otherwise quit ruining my economy with lavish spending. besides what wmd???????????? smoke and mirrors



Since when do we base national security on real estate prices or the Canadian dollar?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:15:44 AM EDT
[#46]
I think what nightowl is trying to get across is that he is a tough guy,  regardless of the thread subject.  Nightowl, are you really trying to say you can take a full power shot from any of us?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:16:27 AM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
In my humble opinion,  our mistake is that we are being too nice. When we find that a city is an insurgent stronghold, we should completely level the city, no questions asked or answered. If a mosque is being used for military purposes, immediately destroy it and its occupants. Same for schools, neighborhoods, etc. The only way to win is to destroy the will of the enemy to fight. Whether they "like" us or not has little to do with it.  War is hell.



Well, we did that with Falluja... many parts of the city were leveled, you don't hear it making headlines any more.



We pussyfooted around for months before we got serious about Fallujah(sp?). Even then, we sent our guys in to clear the place street by street. I value our soldier's lives (even just one) a LOT more than I value that entire city, inhabitants and all. You destroy a city full of bad guys in one big blast, and the next city might not be so willing to harbor them.  Again, JMHO.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:33:02 AM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:
We pussyfooted around for months before we got serious about Fallujah(sp?). Even then, we sent our guys in to clear the place street by street. I value our soldier's lives (even just one) a LOT more than I value that entire city, inhabitants and all. You destroy a city full of bad guys in one big blast, and the next city might not be so willing to harbor them.  Again, JMHO.


I know, and we actually pulled out of Falluja before cleaning house, costing even more lives. The troops were pissed. But we actually went in there again and did what needed to be done, a rare event in this conflict.
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:35:45 AM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
I think what nightowl is trying to get across is that he is a tough guy,  regardless of the thread subject.  Nightowl, are you really trying to say you can take a full power shot from any of us?

one , two or three jigger glass?
Link Posted: 10/8/2005 8:40:06 AM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:
I think what nightowl is trying to get across is that he is a tough guy,  regardless of the thread subject.  Nightowl, are you really trying to say you can take a full power shot from any of us?



No no - it's not that he is tougher than all of us, it's that he is SMARTER than all of us, and instead of taking useful and helpful advice, gets all pissy like a petulant child.  






My thoughts of the matter are that staying in Iraq is a matter of national security for the long, long term - and that money is a secondary consideration.  The second we start making national security about money, we are fucked  (not to say we shouldn't consider it, but just that it should never be a priority).

Did we decide on Operation Overlord based on budget forecasts?  Was the success of the Manhattan Project based on frugal spending?  Did we win the Cold War because we pinched pennies and counted beans?

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