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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4/20/2002 8:17:27 AM EDT
[url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/669676/posts[/url] An IDF Soldier's Report From Jenin
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 9:56:03 AM EDT
Thanks, [b]9divdoc[/b], for that after-action report from the IDF! Your posts are, as always, worth their weight in gold. Eric The(AndThisOneWas[u]Very[/u]Heavy)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:39:44 AM EDT
"There are no missing Palestinian bodies, other than those under the rubble." EXCEPT FOR THOSE MISSING UNDER THE RUBBLE! Yeah, the ones who were: old, or too incapacitated to get out. The IDF fought like *ussies in Jenin. They're great in open armored combat, or in the air, but on the ground in an urban center they are reduced to sealing off populaces in modern day "Warsaw ghettos," & then crushing civilians in their own homes. As for what the soldier says, he's about as trustworthy as a Pal. gunman to me. He's just covering his ass so he won't have to answer to any potential war crimes tribunal.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 10:45:53 AM EDT
Oh, BTW, click on the "Engineer" link at the bottom for the Pali. side. [url]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/669499/posts[/url] Both biased. Neither source trustworthy.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:08:40 AM EDT
i used to have the idea that IDF soldiers were consummate warriors, tough as nails, motivated...then i went there. after 2 joint training ops with the IDF i can honestly say that i dont know of a more inept, half-assed, poorly trained bunch of undisciplined slackers anywhere. now dont get me wrong. thay have a very professional and dedicated senior NCO Corps. but when you fill the ranks with conscripts you dont get much quality.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 11:17:21 AM EDT
You should see the one's I've met on vacation. Sloppy, wasted, looking to score some hash, belligerent. All 19-20 yrs.old, thinking they are badasses... I do have a question though. When that suicide bomber took out 13 of them a couple weeks back, I seem to rem that all of them were Sgt's of one rank or another. Is the IDF officer top-heavy? Is it that they just send NCO's into combat?
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 12:26:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jobux: You should see the one's I've met on vacation. Sloppy, wasted, looking to score some hash, belligerent. All 19-20 yrs.old, thinking they are badasses... I do have a question though. When that suicide bomber took out 13 of them a couple weeks back, I seem to rem that all of them were Sgt's of one rank or another. Is the IDF officer top-heavy? Is it that they just send NCO's into combat?
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No. If you read more carefully the news, they were reservists. You can get ranks in the three years of duty. My wife was sergeant.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 12:58:21 PM EDT
Paolo, I understand that, but what I'm wondering is whether the IDF is sending in teams of NCO's, or more experienced officers, rather than the reservists into the Occuppied Territories.
Link Posted: 4/20/2002 1:30:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2002 4:17:52 PM EDT by GeneStoner]
Here are some highlights: A true warior speaking...
Although it pained him to praise men he believed were behind suicide attacks on Israel, he paid tribute to the Palestinian defenders of Jenin for their professionalism and skill as fighters. "They were no doubt brave and I appreciate any man that is fighting for the things he believes in," he said.
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Emmanuel Nahshon, a spokesman for the Israeli foreign ministry, said in Jerusalem yesterday: "We can speak of a battle but not a massacre. The Palestinians are trying to create a mythology. There are two myths. One is Massada, or the Alamo, a small group of fighters against the odds. This is one myth. The other is Sabra and Shatila. But you cannot have both. If it was a fight, it was not a massacre. If it was not a massacre, it was a fight." He added: "War is ugly but there is a huge difference between war and massacre. I would say that a massacre is when innocent civilians are killed by an armed people like Srebrenica, when you have defenceless people butchered by an army."
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True, true.
"I am an old soldier. If there is something I can blame the army for in Jenin, it was that it did not use its force. It put too many restraints on its power and by this put its soldiers in big danger," Sgt Kaspi said. "This is why we lost so many casualties. If we had used only a small part of our real power - planes, cannons and tanks, though we did use tanks, though only hesitantly - if we had used all that power, we could have saved the lives of our soldiers.
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Again, avoid the use of force as long as you can (diplomacy 1st), but when you use force, USE IT!
Why had the Red Cross and Red Crescent been denied access? He said that they were told they could only use one entrance and that the vehicles would have to be checked going in and out in case they were taking in ammunition or taking fighters out. "There were very few times vehicles went in to take people out." he said. Where were the Palestinian bodies? He did not know but an army spokesman dismissed as "bullshit" reports that they had been buried in secret in the Jordan Valley or in Israel. ... It was a fierce battle, not a massacre
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The warrior even acknowledges it as a [u]battle,[/u] not a skirmish, riot or rebellion. That would demean the Palis. who clearly can fight and kill (and do).
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 11:29:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jobux: Paolo, I understand that, but what I'm wondering is whether the IDF is sending in teams of NCO's, or more experienced officers, rather than the reservists into the Occuppied Territories.
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maybe could appear surprising to most of you, but the IDF regular army (except SF units) is made mainly of conscripts relatively well trained that are spending their mandatory three years term military service. IDF is the only (I guess) army that fight better when using reserve soldiers than regular soldiers: reserve soldiers are better trained, they have many years of experience, real combat training than regular army. [i]Miluim[/i] soldiers are there to defend Israel from aggression, and not because they want to have fun during week ends or to wear the uniform when there is the chance. Once a year they are called for 30-45 days of REAL operative service, or even in combat. In 73 "Yom Kipur" war, a bunch of conscritpts defended the last defensive line near Tiberias, the only units between theSirians and the rest of Israel. The tide changed only when MBT and mechanized units of the IDF reserve joined the party and pushed back Sirians. Got the difference?
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