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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4/11/2002 12:18:29 PM EDT
Another thread has popped up about how that 88 yard shot was impossible. From shooters, I find this puzzling. Why don't the BRC guys (I'm too far away and can't make it) set up a tower shoot at a moving target? Six stories might not be doable, but lots of guys here are smarter than I am, let's come up with a reasonable facsimile of that situation. I recently saw a post about running an RC car on plywood for moving target practice. I'd bet most attendees would be interested in trying the shot, and I'll bet it's declared "doable" afterwards. Even if this brainstorm is too late for this year, maybe next time? What do you think?
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:32:39 PM EDT
Oh, one pet peeve on the timing issue, the SHOOTER starts the clock with his first shot, then he/she has "X" seconds (I forget) to fire the remaining shots.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:34:20 PM EDT
Pretty tasteless.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:36:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 12:36:56 PM EDT by thedave1164]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:44:34 PM EDT
OH, so forensics is "tasteless?" I wouldn't and DIDN'T call it "Shoot at___" There is a genuine dispute over whether a shooter "could" make that shot. I've seen reenactments done with Dan Blather hosting, way back when TV was boradcast in black and white. I don't recall tasteless being used in connection with the event. thedave, nice grasp on reality. You dislike the idea (or me) yet the only way you can express it is through a desire to shoot at me? Let me guess, you could kick my ass, too, right?
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:46:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 12:52:50 PM EDT by Gunbert]
What operatorerror said. It's just in poor taste to attempt, for mere fun-n-games, to recreate how a popular president was assasinated. Damn grad, calm down, man... We're all friends here. It's just that what you're suggesting is in no way forensic science. It'd be a bunch of yahoo's trying to replicate what oswald did... Can you imagine what the media would make of that if they got wind of it? At the BRC? Just think about it a bit.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:47:56 PM EDT
come on enough with the character assassination (no pun intended) already. i think it would be a GREAT idea, in the name of history,conspiracy and research. i don't think any distaste was intended and would support it fully out of plain curiosity.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:49:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87: Oh, one pet peeve on the timing issue, the SHOOTER starts the clock with his first shot, then he/she has "X" seconds (I forget) to fire the remaining shots.
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PACT shot timer. at least we know the government wouldn't be able to influence the test.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:50:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:54:08 PM EDT
I like to do a drive by. Get some birdman Homeboy sites on my GAT, Rollin in a '64 across the range, blasting some caps at the mofos. c-rock
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 12:57:44 PM EDT
there is one factor that can never be reproduced (make that 2) 1. THE MOMENT 2. LUCK the best shooter can instantly be the worst shooter and vice versa. for example, i'm an average shooter. when i was 16, i put two shots (count 'em 2, recovered both projectiles, one in the skull and 1 in the spine.) made two snap shots on a running feral (wild) dog from 100 yds with a old worn stock model mini-14, a very inaccurate rifle. i could never do that again if i tried. WE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PREDICT EXACTLY WHAT BULLETS DO ON BODIES WITH 100% CERTAINTY.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:00:13 PM EDT
Cool it, ME. Guess I've got the Thursday "had it to here so fuck with me tie on." I've SEEN it done on the referenced newscast. One guy got 4 hits, not 3. I am very aware of what the press does to sensationalize crap like this, that's why Iproposed it to this group, we have "sniper comps" all the time at local shoots, this would be no different, just based on a real event. Ever shoot IDPA, it's massacre R us, and they get away with it. Like I said,once "we" decide to do it, code name it and nobody will even know what we're doing. Seriously, what do you think. And I'm NOT playing Kennedy. Well, Jackie, maybe. I look great in a pillbox hat.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:08:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:08:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 1:10:41 PM EDT by quietshoez]
i'll be oswald and KMA/RGUNS can be kennedy. [flame] BTW, what ever happened to that guy? (edited to add that I AM KIDDING)
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 1:36:55 PM EDT
Well, I won't get into a full blown debate here. I will say that I had an open mind on what happenned until I went to work for a guy named Joe Ball. Flip open your Warren Report, he was chief evidence counsel and wrote the chapters on the rifle and Oswald acting alone. You see, Joe was (he recently died) the smartest guy I ever met. He was also the best attorney I ever met. He practiced for over 60 years. He was also a died in the wool LIBERAL democrat, you know, the "Camlelot" Kennedy was a saint type. He had access to everything there was. Not only did he worship K, he was honorable and ethical to a fault. NO WAY IN HELL he would have written those report sections unless he believed them. If you wanted an argument, bring up the Oswald wasn't the Lone Shooter theory. Fireworks, supported by FACT. Another thing, just because the available evidence points to an IMPROBABLE or UNLIKLEY conclusion, doesn't mean something else happenned. There must be evidence to support the theory one thinks is "more" likely. "Oswald was a patsy" makes me ILL. The "patsy" bought the rifle in question, was seen practicing at local ranges with it, JOURNALED taking that shot at that general, which his wife suspected he did, went to the garage where everyone agrees he kept that rifle THAT DAY on the way to work, emerrged with a long brown paper package THAT MORNING ("curtain rods"). Then THAT SAME RIFLE turns up not where he kept it, but at his workplace, ON THE SAME DAY he took the curtain rods there. He fled the scene and shot officer Tippet IN FULL VIEW OF WITNESSES. Some patsy. Theonly evidence that he was a patsy in any sense of the word is his use of the term. If that were good evidence, nobody'd be on death row.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:03:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By operatorerror: Pretty tasteless.
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Taste aside, while he may have been an American President he was undoubtedly one of the WORST. Family were crooks (old Joe the bootlegger - pre-historic drug dealer) Cousin a rapist. Brother a chickshit drunk that left a young lady pinned in the car while his lilly white ass swam to safety and then the family spin machine took over - and that "great American" is still helping shape America today. Tasteless yes. Not because of the man, but b/c of the office.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:13:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:18:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:19:08 PM EDT
ditto to what SIX said, the most influential and important thing that JFK did was die. it may sound unfortunate and cold, but if he had not been killed in office his administration would have been as memorable as jimmy carter's (jimmy carter was a president in the seventies)[;D] his foreign and domestic policies sucked.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:21:15 PM EDT
Aimless. Noce to see you read my posts before tossing in your .02. Not.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:27:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:34:23 PM EDT
Let me clarify. Having a get together (the BRC) where a bunch of gun enthusiasts take turns shooting at a moving target from a tower that exactly replicates the dimensions and circumstances of the Kennedy assassination, and billing it as a re-enactment of that shoot, just might get some negative attention in the press, who are probably just itching for an excuse to slam this event anyway. Don't get your undies in a bundle, we are on the same side. No offense was intended. I would be interested in the results with a comparable rifle.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:41:05 PM EDT
That's EXACTLY what I propose, make it close enough, and don't sell tickets to "Whack a Kennedy." Just call it the moving target comp or whatever. Hey, it's just an idea, I'm not even going.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:42:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/11/2002 2:43:52 PM EDT by Stormbringer]
Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer: can i shoot from the grassy knoll? or maybe from the storm drain? mike
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[b] YOU JUST KEEP THE HELL AWAY FROM MY DRAIN!![/b]
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 2:54:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By quietshoez: ditto to what SIX said, the most influential and important thing that JFK did was die. it may sound unfortunate and cold, but if he had not been killed in office his administration would have been as memorable as jimmy carter's (jimmy carter was a president in the seventies)[;D] his foreign and domestic policies sucked.
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I watched a special on JFK on the History Channel (not "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" however) One guy pointed out that Kennedy had run on the civil rights movement (he billed himself as a Friend of the Negro) but never did anything about it in office. After his death, Johnson was able to get a hesitant and mostly conservative congress to pass the Civil Rights Bill using JFK's legacy and death, kind of like do it for JFK. So, yes, I agree with you, the best thing Kennedy did for America was take three bullets to the head.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 3:00:55 PM EDT
I have sat in the same room with active duty precision riflemen and watched "Diary of an Assassination". That video was made locally in the Dallas area about three years ago from the original Zapruder film. The Zapruder family got possession of their film from the Feds for a short time before is was "sold" to a "caretaker agency" for around $17.5 million. During the time the Zapruders had possession, the film was taken by the Zapruder family to a local digital imaging company for analysis and preservation. The company took each frame, digitized it and did some digital processing that's described in detail in the video. They also used the WHOLE image of each frame which is larger than the images you've seen on TV. The television images are cropped on all four sides to get a better TV image. The original, larger images give detail that's not present on the TV images. Anyway the video is about 35 minutes long with all the detail of how the images were processed. When the processed images are run you'd be amazed at the details you've never seen on TV simply because TV images are poor quality to begin with and cropped of significant detail. I was a simple listener in the room. The professionals were the ones talking. After viewing the video about four times all the way through with LOTS of rewinds, slo-mo and stop frames, they all agreed from the way Kennedy's body moved in reaction to the impacts and the direction the tissue and fluids reacted to the impacts, it was obvious to them multiple shooters were involved. Things like Kennedy's wearing a back support brace and the like were discussed. Anyway the consensus was that there were three fire teams involved. Considering the level of expertise available at that time probably Marine-trained. There had to be a ground commander involved as well to coordinate. When I say Oswald was a patsy I mean he was setup to be apprehended. Oswald was a trained marksman, had ties to the Soviets, Cubans and the CIA. He was a player but he was the fall-guy. I don't claim to have any new or brilliant information that hasn't been covered years ago. The former Marina Oswald lives a few miles from me, her daughter went to school in our small town and one of the LE's who was at Oswald's exhumation was over at our house yesterday. But I still don't know what really happened.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 3:08:36 PM EDT
AROCK I've heard that arguement, the one about what happenned to K when he was hit. I certainly haven't seen enough (ANY!) headshots, etc to be able to tell what one "should" do when hit from whatever angle. I have heard "experts" ie neurologists say that a massive NON medulla oblongata headshot will cause a monster spasmodic jerk in the "subject" like what's shown on the film. That's a point I am open to. I've shot lots of stuff, varmints, cans, etc, and they don't always do what I think they will when hit. Glad to hear you are at least realistic about Oswald. What was the concensus re the back brace? I've heard it's why he never tried to duck, because he couldn't. Was he wearing one?
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 3:11:45 PM EDT
I'll be Ann Margret! Animal Mother can be a rabid buffalo! Imbruglio can be Gen. Custard! Who'll be the indians? Will let Tatjana be the indians!
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 10:40:24 PM EDT
Hell, why not do a Ruby Ridge re-enactment seeing that Horiuchi and other HRT will be in attendance.
Link Posted: 4/11/2002 10:52:03 PM EDT
WAIT!!!! Better yet, Lets have a Ruby Ridge / Waco reenactment, that way we'll see who the feds are at the BRC cause they'll all start to shrug their shoulders, get uncomfortable, and then start salivating.... YEaaaaa thats the ticket!!!
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:24:09 AM EDT
Hell, why not do a Ruby Ridge re-enactment seeing that Horiuchi and other HRT will be in attendance.
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Are you serious? It would be interesting to attend just to see that scumbag in the flesh.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 2:49:17 AM EDT
[;D] I say we do a North Hollywood re-enactment.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:26:11 AM EDT
Well, I think that the 'timeline' for the amount of time has always been suspect. The people who support conspiracy, always use the very shortest time possible in computing the time frame for the three shots. In other words, they use the very last possible Zapruder movie frame as the time of the 'first shot' and the very first possible Zapruder movie frame as the time of the 'third shot', thereby compressing the time available to the shortest amount possible. Anyway, all of this is fun and exciting, but to be honest, after 39 years and the deaths of all the chief actors and witnesses to this drama, if this issue hadn't been settled by now, it most likely never will be settled! Here's a good website for 'non-conspiracy' side:[url]http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm[/url] Eric The(OpenQuestion)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 4:36:06 AM EDT
i can't believe I'm reading this, do you have any idea how the press would handle this if they caught wind of it,(Headline: Assasination instruction taught at malitia training seminar") it would surely be another nail in the .50 cal coffin. how we portray ourselves as gun owners has a major impact on the future for all of us.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 5:57:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87: AROCK I've heard that arguement, the one about what happenned to K when he was hit. I certainly haven't seen enough (ANY!) headshots, etc to be able to tell what one "should" do when hit from whatever angle. I have heard "experts" ie neurologists say that a massive NON medulla oblongata headshot will cause a monster spasmodic jerk in the "subject" like what's shown on the film. That's a point I am open to. I've shot lots of stuff, varmints, cans, etc, and they don't always do what I think they will when hit. Glad to hear you are at least realistic about Oswald. What was the concensus re the back brace? I've heard it's why he never tried to duck, because he couldn't. Was he wearing one?
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The video shows Kennedy sitting erect in the Lincoln convertible. When the first shot impacts it hits just ABOVE the top of the brace. Kennedy's hands are seen grasping his neck at just below collar level. He does not bend over as the brace keeps him up. You need to find a copy of the video. It was available at Blockbuster for several months after it was first released. It can probably be found at one of the video sites. It's very interesting.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 8:56:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/12/2002 8:59:16 AM EDT by Merlin]
This isn't tasteless if done right. In Massad Ayoob's discussion on the assination of JFK in his "Ayoob Files" in American Handgunner mag, he recounts how Richard Davis of Second Chance would replicate the JFK assination each year at the Second Chance match. Out of +600 attempts only 2 people could hit the 1-" moving target within the time frame allowed: both were right handers that shot left handed (didn't have to take their right hands off the bolt handle) and they both used the iron sights after the first shot. To replicate it, you would have to: - Approximately 6 stories high - Correct distance - Moving target at the right speed (use small guage rail?) - Similiar rifle - Similiar optics - Similiar rounds It may be hard to set up for this year's BRC, but I see doing this for next year to be a very popular draw and a good money maker (charge $10 or so and donate the money to a charity or whatever). Edited to add: One reason the shoot would be a good draw would be for people to see if they could have made the shot. Keeping score would also let a lot of people know whether or not Oswald could have done it by himself. Another reason it would be a great draw is the large number of people who would pay to have a chance to "kill" JFK since so many people hated and still hate his guts. My .020. Merlin
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 9:06:36 AM EDT
AGAIN, and I'll type slow for the one's who are apparently having trouble reading, stop freaking out about what the press would do if we sold tickets to a "Kennedy Turkey Shoot." Look at the title I used for this thread. I KNOW discretion is in order. Fine, we decide to set up a stage for scoped bolt rifles firing from an elevated position to a moving target. NOTHING MORE. Who do you think is going to be covering this, Ellery Queen? Kennedy is not mentioned, it's NOT the "Dealy Plaza Stage," or anything like that. Trust me, you guys break out the black rifles, belt feds, and evil .50s, some reporter commenting that one of the countless stages reminds him of Dallas will be the LEAST of your worries. AGAIN, ever shoot IDPA? I shot about 30 T SHIRT WEARING human silhouettes last week, nobody batted an eye. DISCRETION is all that is needed.
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 9:11:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 10:00:58 AM EDT
Oh Oh! While were at it, we can put people up against trees and shoot apples off their heads!!! Yea,, that's another ticket!
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 10:17:30 AM EDT
Post from Merlin -
One reason the shoot would be a good draw would be for people to see if they could have made the shot. Keeping score would also let a lot of people know whether or not Oswald could have done it by himself.
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If you 'win' this event and you're old enough, you may have to do a lot of 'splaining your precise whereabouts on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. Eric The(IWasInGradeSchoolAbout200MilesFromDallas-IHaveAttendanecRecords!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/12/2002 11:12:01 AM EDT
Oh come on, everybody knows Oswald didn't do the deed. Why don't you have a "vote from the rooftops" event instead?
Link Posted: 4/16/2002 9:19:48 AM EDT
For all of you who fear how the media would portray so much, tell the truth: How many of you knew of the 2nd Chance JFK event before my post above? I'll bet that there were very few people who knew of it. The Ayoob article was written about 5-8 years ago (I've still got the article, I may dig it up tonight) and I don't know if the 2nd Chance is still going on or whether or not they still replicate the JFK assination during the match. If they do, it would be interesting to see the latest statistics. The BRC match directors could get in touch with Richard Davis and find out )and find out the course design also). As far as people wanting a chance to "kill" JFK, whether or not people stated that was the reason they wanted to try, it would still be up to the organizers and match directors how they want to advertise the match. I don't see the problem my self. I think some of you need to chill out. I'd think it would be a great idea and one I'd go to. My .02. Merlin
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