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Posted: 6/16/2009 2:25:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 6:04:58 PM EST by Sykkone]
What does the BATFE consider as acceptable proof of a military member being stationed in the FFL transfer state?
If you say orders, please elaborate as to the particular information that 'must' be present in the orders, to be considered proof.

What if the ownership status of a firearm that has been purchased from a 3rd party, but is held by an FFL?
What happens in regards to the firearm, if the buyer doesn't meet the requirements of the 4473?

If a FFL holder does not transfer a firearm to the buyer, how would he return it to the seller?


Edit: Against my better judgment... bolded.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:37:46 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:47:40 PM EST
really?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:49:19 PM EST
I have woundered this to.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:52:55 PM EST
So you're saying what happens to a gun if you pay someone for it and they ship it to an FFL, but the FFL can't transfer it to you because you don't pass the NICS check?

Well, if the FFL is nice then they will probably be willing to ship it back to the original shipper, provided someone pays them for the shipping costs and provided that the original shipper is willing to refund your money. Except that if the original shipper is a private citizen and not another FFL or dealer, then the original shipper will most likely have to have your FFL ship it to another FFL in their state and then have their own gun transferred back to them via 4473.

If they're a dick then they could probably get away with keeping the gun, reporting you to the authorities for attempting to purchase a gun without meeting the requirements and stick the gun in the display case. Especially if whoever you bought the gun from doesn't want to make a fuss.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 2:53:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sykkone:
What is the ownership status of a firearm that has been purchased from a 3rd party, but is held by an FFL?
What happens in regards to the firearm, if the buyer doesn't meet the requirements of the 4473?

If a FFL holder does not transfer a firearm to the buyer, how would he return it to the seller?


Edit: Against my better judgment... bolded.
I would imagine that it would go something like this:
Buyer sends payment for firearm
Seller ships to Buyer's FFL
Buyer fails to pass NICS
Buyer's FFL returns firearm to Seller
???
Profit

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 3:23:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
So you're saying what happens to a gun if you pay someone for it and they ship it to an FFL, but the FFL can't transfer it to you because you don't pass the NICS check?

Well, if the FFL is nice then they will probably be willing to ship it back to the original shipper, provided someone pays them for the shipping costs and provided that the original shipper is willing to refund your money. Except that if the original shipper is a private citizen and not another FFL or dealer, then the original shipper will most likely have to have your FFL ship it to another FFL in their state and then have their own gun transferred back to them via 4473.

If they're a dick then they could probably get away with keeping the gun, reporting you to the authorities for attempting to purchase a gun without meeting the requirements and stick the gun in the display case. Especially if whoever you bought the gun from doesn't want to make a fuss.
The reason doesn't matter, but basically, yes. I don't want to go into the reason yet.

So hypothetically speaking, I could bring the original seller the the FFL, FFL updates his records, FFL returns firearm to original seller?

The reason I ask is because it would take me $65 to ship from the FFL to the seller's FFL, $40 for the seller's transfer, another $65 from the seller back to a FFL, and then another $40 for the FFL transfer fee.

I might as well get my own FFL...
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 3:27:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By raysheen:
Originally Posted By Sykkone:
What is the ownership status of a firearm that has been purchased from a 3rd party, but is held by an FFL?
What happens in regards to the firearm, if the buyer doesn't meet the requirements of the 4473?

If a FFL holder does not transfer a firearm to the buyer, how would he return it to the seller?


Edit: Against my better judgment... bolded.
I would imagine that it would go something like this:
Buyer sends payment for firearm
Seller ships to Buyer's FFL
Buyer fails to pass NICS FFL refuses to transfer
Buyer's FFL returns firearm to Seller
???
Profit
Fixed.

The ??? isn't really a concern, yet, for me. As such, there is no profit, because the gun/money will have changed hands evenly.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 5:49:48 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:05:08 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:08:36 PM EST
I have used orders to buy a gun in a state other than my home state. All the FFL needed to see was the base and state on the orders. I was at the time, at Naval Station Newport RI, and my orders reflected as such. I showed my orders, bought the gun and went home (after the 3 day wait or whatever it was)
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:12:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
I have used orders to buy a gun in a state other than my home state. All the FFL needed to see was the base and state on the orders. I was at the time, at Naval Station Newport RI, and my orders reflected as such. I showed my orders, bought the gun and went home (after the 3 day wait or whatever it was)
Base, check.
State, check.


Navy? Did your orders state you were stationed there, or(like mine) just state that your ultimate activity was such and such unit in NS Newport?

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:16:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
I have used orders to buy a gun in a state other than my home state. All the FFL needed to see was the base and state on the orders. I was at the time, at Naval Station Newport RI, and my orders reflected as such. I showed my orders, bought the gun and went home (after the 3 day wait or whatever it was)
Base, check.
State, check.


Navy? Did your orders state you were stationed there, or(like mine) just state that your ultimate activity was such and such unit in NS Newport?



Marine....let me think....that was a while back, but I think it said "will attend such and such school for a period of ––" not specifically that I was stationed there.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:23:32 PM EST
For guys here it needed to be PCS orders, so not just an expectd TDY duration of xyz days. But, this was always for a pistol, rifles should just be any orders.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:37:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
I have used orders to buy a gun in a state other than my home state. All the FFL needed to see was the base and state on the orders. I was at the time, at Naval Station Newport RI, and my orders reflected as such. I showed my orders, bought the gun and went home (after the 3 day wait or whatever it was)
Base, check.
State, check.


Navy? Did your orders state you were stationed there, or(like mine) just state that your ultimate activity was such and such unit in NS Newport?



Marine....let me think....that was a while back, but I think it said "will attend such and such school for a period of ––" not specifically that I was stationed there.
Same as ours. Report NLT XX date "FOR DUTY" and the Planned Rotation Date x years later.


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:51:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By monkey302:
For guys here it needed to be PCS orders, so not just an expectd TDY duration of xyz days. But, this was always for a pistol, rifles should just be any orders.
This is a pistol transaction.

Oh, I have the PCS orders. No objections here about the whole temdu thing. My problem is that my orders state that (see above post) and not that I'm actually stationed here. My orders also state that the Ultimate Activity, which you and I know to be the Permanent Duty Station, isn't referred to as permanent, or that I'm currently stationed there, but that's NORMAL for Navy orders.

Here's the peculiar thing: The FFL holder said that a ATF field agent told him that "orders" must say Permanent Duty Station and that I'm currently stationed there.
I have a tough time believing that, because the other FFL said no such thing, claimed he'd accept them, and then 'went in the back'. 15 minutes later, he won't even touch my deal or my orders. Period. The ATF agent I had talked to that day heard me read my orders to him verbatim, and didn't see a problem with them.

I want to know what standard of proof is good enough, because these FFLs can't agree, even with themselves, or with the ATF, and other little things they claimed didn't fit either.

Do I have to bring my Skipper with me?

I'm incredibly frustrated, and getting different shit from every person I talk to, and sometimes different shit from the same person.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:55:27 PM EST
PCS orders, period.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:57:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Riotgun:
PCS orders, period.
Not that I'm doubting you, because I don't, and you sound pretty sure... is there something from the ATF that will explain this?



Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:07:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By Riotgun:
PCS orders, period.
Not that I'm doubting you, because I don't, and you sound pretty sure... is there something from the ATF that will explain this?





_____________________________________________________________________________________
THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968, PUBLIC LAW 90-618
TITLE 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44

§ 921. Definitions

(b) For the purposes of this chapter, a member of the Armed Forces on active duty
is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:08:19 PM EST
My friend ordered a gun and didn't have his PCS orders. He had his commander write up a memorandum of some sort and he got his pistol. Wish i could help more but I'm not sure what the memorandum stated. I believe much of it has to do with what the FFL is willing to accept as proof. I believe the ATF requirement just states "official government papers" or some other nonsense.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:08:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By Sykkone:

Originally Posted By monkey302:
For guys here it needed to be PCS orders, so not just an expectd TDY duration of xyz days. But, this was always for a pistol, rifles should just be any orders.
This is a pistol transaction.

Oh, I have the PCS orders. No objections here about the whole temdu thing. My problem is that my orders state that (see above post) and not that I'm actually stationed here. My orders also state that the Ultimate Activity, which you and I know to be the Permanent Duty Station, isn't referred to as permanent, or that I'm currently stationed there, but that's NORMAL for Navy orders.

Here's the peculiar thing: The FFL holder said that a ATF field agent told him that "orders" must say Permanent Duty Station and that I'm currently stationed there.
I have a tough time believing that, because the other FFL said no such thing, claimed he'd accept them, and then 'went in the back'. 15 minutes later, he won't even touch my deal or my orders. Period. The ATF agent I had talked to that day heard me read my orders to him verbatim, and didn't see a problem with them.

I want to know what standard of proof is good enough, because these FFLs can't agree, even with themselves, or with the ATF, and other little things they claimed didn't fit either.

Do I have to bring my Skipper with me?

I'm incredibly frustrated, and getting different shit from every person I talk to, and sometimes different shit from the same person.


The orders themselves are sufficient, and yes as stated they must be PCS orders (which yours are). Your FFL doesn't know what he's talking about. Temp orders say "temporary" IIRC, although it's been a while since I went TAD.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:23:07 PM EST
So stupid FFL holder is stupid. Check.

Now I have to find a way to get the pistol from him to a different FFL, without him contaminating the next FFL like he did the last one.
At the last one, I had 3 out of the 4 people behind the counter, on the same page, that the orders in my hand were good to go, and i 'think' that the last guy called the 'female atf agent' that originally gave out the erroneous information, or called the first FFL I talked to. Either way, bad information got propagated.

Great.
I call FFL.
I say, what do I need?
FFL says, copy of your orders.
I say great, how much?
FFL says $30.
I say great, I'll come get FFL copy.

Then I get: sorry, but your orders don't have the right information, according to the opinion of this atf agent...
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:40:59 PM EST
As others have said PCS orders are all thats required,

I'd ask the FFL what burden of proof he is asking for, maybe have your CO right a letter stating basically "I am askaknights CO and he is on PCS orders to this post"

Maybe try calling the ATF or looking up the regs and show them to the dealer.

Unfortunately if the dealer can refuse to sell you a gun, or anything else for that matter, If nothing else I'd find another FFL in the area to do busniess with, ask around and see what other folks on base are using.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:57:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By POW-MIAneverforget:
As others have said PCS orders are all thats required,

I'd ask the FFL what burden of proof he is asking for, maybe have your CO right a letter stating basically "I am askaknights CO and he is on PCS orders to this post"

Maybe try calling the ATF or looking up the regs and show them to the dealer.

Unfortunately if the dealer can refuse to sell you a gun, or anything else for that matter, If nothing else I'd find another FFL in the area to do busniess with, ask around and see what other folks on base are using.


PCS Orders and ID Card were all I ever had to provide.
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