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Posted: 7/3/2012 10:44:05 AM EDT
Let's say that you bought an ACOG and you called Trijicon to ask them about the year of manufacturer and you find out that they sold it to the military a few years back.

What are the consequences of owning it, what are the consequences of the seller (let's say thet they're military) etc..

..and no it's not mine, I only own 1 ACOG and it was a civilan sale

Hypothetical question abound!
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:45:20 AM EDT
Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:47:40 AM EDT
Paging Agent Wu !
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:48:29 AM EDT
Hypothetical my ass!

What do you have it mounted on?
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:49:00 AM EDT
Quoted:
Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.


Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:51:28 AM EDT
Hypothetically these things float around with some military personal that return home.  

Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:52:09 AM EDT
A friend of mine bought a M151A2 MUTT a few years ago. About a month later the FEDS came to his home at questioned him about it. When it was all over he lost the MUTT and the money he paid for it, but the guy he bought it from went to jail.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:52:51 AM EDT



Quoted:


Hypothetically these things float around with some military personal that return home.  



No. Hypothetically these things float around when shit bags fucking steal them. You don't "return home" with body armor and an ACOG in your pocket.





 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:54:14 AM EDT
Every agancy has agents to retrieve them. Even NASA has them to get moon rocks back.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:54:31 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.


Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.


enough to be a problem.  troop checked it out, reports it lost in course of duty, pockets it, sends it back home and sells it.  

so easy enough to make off with lots of $$ worth of gear, and hard to stop at the onset without diligent investigation and prosecution of offenders (which I support 100%).
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 10:55:46 AM EDT
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:03:34 AM EDT
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:05:25 AM EDT
It is possible it went through DRMO and was sold later. There would be records of that though.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:08:15 AM EDT
Quoted:
It is possible it went through DRMO and was sold later. There would be records of that though.


Not if it's an ACOG.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:08:28 AM EDT
Stolen?!?  You pay taxes, don't you?
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:09:22 AM EDT
Quoted:
It is possible it went through DRMO and was sold later. There would be records of that though.


Sold at a .gov auction or the PX?
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:10:05 AM EDT



Quoted:



Quoted:

It is possible it went through DRMO and was sold later. There would be records of that though.




Not if it's an ACOG.


They are on DRMO for gov sale. Not sure on the excess requirement after that.

 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:10:47 AM EDT
Quoted:
Stolen?!?  You pay taxes, don't you?


Funny.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:13:22 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?


I always did wonder about that. Although if it's something where tons of them were also sold as surplus, not NFA, not sensitive items, not current or recent issue,it's obviously now at a point where nobody cares, no way to prove it, not worth the effort.

But the nitty-gritty legal detimination always had me scratching my head over stuff like that.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:14:44 AM EDT
I've mentioned before that we (My unit) is preparing for a COMET
inspection in a couple of weeks.  About 6 weeks ago our Supply SGT made a
stupid mistake


(It's going to lose him his job) and let a bunch of split-trainers into
the vault to help prep' shit.  One of the guys (A Criminal Justice Major
no less) decided to


stick a couple of PVS-14's and an ACOG (One of only TWO we have left
since we got back from the last deployment...the rest have been
Lateraled to other units


on their way OS) in his pockets.





We were in the middle of our "By serial #" inventories (About 4 days
after the theft) when they were discovered missing.  Long story short,
State cops were involved,


dude admitted to the theft and (Luckily) he was removed from our AO before I had a chance to kill him





Personally, I doubt that, short of drawing attention to yourself (If
you're in possession of stolen military equipment) that you run a "Huge"
chance of having it


confiscated.  On the other hand though, those D-Bags who ARE placed in a
position of trust who ARE selling their unit's CL-9 and (In some cases)
CL-2 need to


die miserably.





I'm not talking about the youngster who gets home from a deployment and
discovers (6+ months later) that he's got 10 improved M16 mags or one of
those cool


hatchet "Thingies" in the bottom of duffle #4 that he decides to get rid
of but, the fuckers who I see on the net selling NOTHING but CL-9 parts
who have screen-


names like "Armysupplyguy92Y" and who "seem" to manage to have an almost
un-ending supply of BUIS', Rail systems, PVS-14 parts (All ANIW) at 1/2
of the going


rate and who...."seem" to "find" extra stock after initially posting a set number for sale.



 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:21:43 AM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.


Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.


I work at a army surplus store. You would be amazed at the kind of things that soldiers bring in trying to sell us

Link Posted: 7/3/2012 11:26:23 AM EDT
Quoted:
I've mentioned before that we (My unit) is preparing for a COMET inspection in a couple of weeks.  About 6 weeks ago our Supply SGT made a stupid mistake
(It's going to lose him his job) and let a bunch of split-trainers into the vault to help prep' shit.  One of the guys (A Criminal Justice Major no less) decided to
stick a couple of PVS-14's and an ACOG (One of only TWO we have left since we got back from the last deployment...the rest have been Lateraled to other units
on their way OS) in his pockets.

We were in the middle of our "By serial #" inventories (About 4 days after the theft) when they were discovered missing.  Long story short, State cops were involved,
dude admitted to the theft and (Luckily) he was removed from our AO before I had a chance to kill him

Personally, I doubt that, short of drawing attention to yourself (If you're in possession of stolen military equipment) that you run a "Huge" chance of having it
confiscated.  On the other hand though, those D-Bags who ARE placed in a position of trust who ARE selling their unit's CL-9 and (In some cases) CL-2 need to
die miserably.

I'm not talking about the youngster who gets home from a deployment and discovers (6+ months later) that he's got 10 improved M16 mags or one of those cool
hatchet "Thingies" in the bottom of duffle #4 that he decides to get rid of but, the fuckers who I see on the net selling NOTHING but CL-9 parts who have screen-
names like "Armysupplyguy92Y" and who "seem" to manage to have an almost un-ending supply of BUIS', Rail systems, PVS-14 parts (All ANIW) at 1/2 of the going
rate and who...."seem" to "find" extra stock after initially posting a set number for sale.
 






Link Posted: 7/3/2012 1:48:11 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.


Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.


There was a thread here last fall about a guy who bought one off either the EE or ebay(don't remember which), seller was busted by military and turned over his list of buyers and the member had to give it back to the military-out his money.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 1:50:19 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?


Some were surplussed and sold by the government(you're fine with those). Some very well might be part of an active investigation and may or may not be found and considered stolen.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 1:52:34 PM EDT



Quoted:


Paging Agent Wu !
.



 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 1:57:43 PM EDT
A guy I know was trying to sell me a Glare Mout. No idea where he got it from but apparently they cost like $5K. He was going to trade me for my M&P. I probably would have if it had a LaRue mount but it was on an ARMS mount
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 2:00:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 2:01:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:07:20 PM EDT
I've never been in the military so this is probably going to sound dumb but what do you get to keep?  My step-brother got out of the Marines in the mid-80's and he brought home all sorts of stuff. Nothing really valuable, web gear, canteens, M-16 magazines, stuff like that. Was that stuff stolen or do you get to keep some stuff?
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:12:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:16:54 PM EDT
Quoted:
I've never been in the military so this is probably going to sound dumb but what do you get to keep?  My step-brother got out of the Marines in the mid-80's and he brought home all sorts of stuff. Nothing really valuable, web gear, canteens, M-16 magazines, stuff like that. Was that stuff stolen or do you get to keep some stuff?



I got out in 92. As of then, webgear, canteens and the like were ta-40. Issued gear that you were required to turn in prior to separation. However, theft of ta-40 items was rampant, as you were required to display it for frequent inspection, and a lot of guys would take your e-tool, if they had pawned theirs. Funny how military bases are surrounded by pawnshops....
  My battery was confined to quarters for a weekend in August, at Ft Hood,(no ac) because of a missing pvs-7 (nvg) that was later found, right where it was supposed to be....
ETA. A lot of us paid out of pocket for better newer gear. In that case, your step brother may well have brought home his own gear, legally.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:28:37 PM EDT



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.




So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?




I always did wonder about that. Although if it's something where tons of them were also sold as surplus, not NFA, not sensitive items, not current or recent issue,it's obviously now at a point where nobody cares, no way to prove it, not worth the effort.



But the nitty-gritty legal detimination always had me scratching my head over stuff like that.
I remember seeing a program on the television where a guy found a cannon that was lost in the 1830's, and the government took it from him.





 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 3:32:38 PM EDT
Local site around Camp Pendleton

Pendleton Yard Sales

It's always fun to watch the stuff that comes up.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:04:25 PM EDT
Quoted:
I've never been in the military so this is probably going to sound dumb but what do you get to keep?  My step-brother got out of the Marines in the mid-80's and he brought home all sorts of stuff. Nothing really valuable, web gear, canteens, M-16 magazines, stuff like that. Was that stuff stolen or do you get to keep some stuff?


Buying replacement gear, getting handed extra gear by soldiers ETS'ing, and worst of all being told you have to pay for a piece of gear that's been beat to hell simply because you had to use it. It's almost impossible to keep pinholes from wet weather bags, sweaters from getting snags, frayed edges on ammo pouches, etc, but when it's time to outprocess the toughest and most stressful part is getting that goddam CIF stamp on your paperwork. Whatever they made me pay for, I kept.

There's a lot of lost gear found in the field, too. No way to know whose it was, and if you asked around EVERYBODY would claim it. I brought home extra mags, canteens, ponchos, helmet covers.....none of it stolen, some purchased and some given to me. A PRC-77 mic ended up in one of my duffel bags, not sure how it got there, but wasn't intentional.....it's useless to me, but everything else is legit.

I knew soldiers who came back with gear claimed as "combat losses" from the Panama Invasion and first Gulf War. If it wasn't a "sensitive item" it wasn't questioned. Peacetime "field losses" were a big deal though, and even minor losses could get you an Article-15 (i.e. Kevlar helmet, bayonet) unless you replaced it quick (could buy them at "Clothing and Sales" on base). The max they could take from your pay for lost/damaged equipment was $1500, so if you're going to damage a HMMWV, you might as well destroy it.

That was late 80's/early 90's policy.....not sure how they handle it now. I've read some posts on arfcom that they even take uniforms back now. In my time we kept our initial issue and had to turn in all field gear as it was issued/reissued by individual units.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:08:04 PM EDT
I find it interesting that the government can apparently tell you the proper status of every piece of military hardware ever made, but couldn't even begin to identify the top five items most frequently purchased with EBT cards.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:15:41 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?


Up through the end of WWII soldiers were given the opportunity to buy their individual weapons. WWI and WWII, not sure about the years in between. I read somewhere they'd have to pay something like $11 for their M1911 and $17 for their M1 Garand if they wanted to keep them. Might have been arfcom, but somewhere somebody posted copies of an official Declarations form authorizing a soldier to keep an M1911. They were allowed to bring home war trophies as well, including weapons captured (or found) on the battlefield.

ETA: I watched a video on YouTube the other day of someone showing the differences between their Beretta 92FS and Beretta M9. He claimed he bought the M9 at a gun shop, even had the "US" markings. That kinda surprised me, not sure how that ended up on the market.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:23:04 PM EDT
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


I promise that you would never be charged with "receiving stolen property" if it was unbenounced to you and you were the one who reported it.  I don't believe you even qualify for receiving stolen property after doing so.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:25:39 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?


Up through the end of WWII soldiers were given the opportunity to buy their individual weapons. WWI and WWII, not sure about the years in between. I read somewhere they'd have to pay something like $11 for their M1911 and $17 for their M1 Garand if they wanted to keep them. Might have been arfcom, but somewhere somebody posted copies of an official Declarations form authorizing a soldier to keep an M1911. They were allowed to bring home war trophies as well, including weapons captured (or found) on the battlefield.

ETA: I watched a video on YouTube the other day of someone showing the differences between their Beretta 92FS and Beretta M9. He claimed he bought the M9 at a gun shop, even had the "US" markings. That kinda surprised me, not sure how that ended up on the market.


Beretta sells an M9 model.  Even comes in a..........cardboard box.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:27:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:27:50 PM EDT



Quoted:



Quoted:

Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.




Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.
Technically it's stolen, but the process it goes through to get "stolen" isn't quite so simple.  Joe gets issued something, like an ACOG.  He takes it downrange.  The S4 doesn't want the headache of dealing with it anymore, so he tells Joe to keep it and writes it off as a combat loss.  After all, it's easier to get a replacement than to have everyone turn their shit in and conduct a complete inventory.  Joe doesn't know what to do with it, so he hawks it.  This isn't something that only a few low level NCOs are in on, it often time goes pretty high up the food chain.  It's laziness, plain and simple.



 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:27:57 PM EDT



Quoted:


I find it interesting that the government can apparently tell you the proper status of every piece of military hardware ever made, but couldn't even begin to identify the top five items most frequently purchased with EBT cards.


because the dod is not the "government".



 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:37:41 PM EDT
What if it's 11-49 to you personally and has the sign off of the supply guys?
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:44:18 PM EDT



Quoted:





Quoted:


Quoted:

Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.




Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.
Technically it's stolen, but the process it goes through to get "stolen" isn't quite so simple.  Joe gets issued something, like an ACOG.  He takes it downrange.  The S4 doesn't want the headache of dealing with it anymore, so he tells Joe to keep it and writes it off as a combat loss.  After all, it's easier to get a replacement than to have everyone turn their shit in and conduct a complete inventory.  Joe doesn't know what to do with it, so he hawks it.  This isn't something that only a few low level NCOs are in on, it often time goes pretty high up the food chain.  It's laziness, plain and simple.

 


We have had two different people try to sell us gov't property at the pawn shop. One guy claimed to have a set of Gen 4 NVG that he wanted to trade straight across for a new Glock. The other guy was wanting to sell us an ACOG for $200, he claimed it was given to his brother when the brother had returned from Iraq. Also the serial number was scratched off.



The nearest base is an Air Force base 60 miles away, so the chance of being caught by CID/NCIS is pretty slim. However a lot of LEOs are ex-MIL, and they might be a bit suspicious of a GEN4 NVG sitting in the store, or very suspicious of an ACOG missing a SN. So if Officer Friendly decides to call CID/NCIS and tell them what we have, when the nice CID agent stops in he won't care how Joe got the item, CID will just see it as stolen US property. Or at the very least Officer Friendly sees the ACOG with a missing SN and starts to wonder how legit of an operation we are running.



We have a part time employee who served 20+ years with the Army, and when in doubt we ask him about Military items that come in. There have been a couple times the employee has said the same thing JoshAston said, "Yeahhh it is possible the soldier got them legitimately but he really shouldn't have them, and CID would most likely frown..."





 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:45:33 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.


Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.


Yes, stolen military products always get stolen.

Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:52:25 PM EDT
Quoted:
I find it interesting that the government can apparently tell you the proper status of every piece of military hardware ever made, but couldn't even begin to identify the top five items most frequently purchased with EBT cards.


Politics. Sort of like how you can find out how many nuclear weapons the US has available, but you'll never see the pregnancy rate for female soldiers on a 12 month deployment. That's even if they're keeping track. The worst statistics aren't even counted.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 4:55:00 PM EDT



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

Military inspectors come and take it away and you tell them where you bought it for their criminal case.




Does stolen military products like this get stolen often? I've heard the gunshow tales about body armor but the ACOG thing is new to me.




Yes, stolen military products always get stolen.









 
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:01:31 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?


Savage Enfields were lend-lease in many cases.

Lend lease guns are okay for sale.


That is how a good number of 1911s got sold.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:21:12 PM EDT
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's called "receiving stolen property" and it's a crime. Cooperate and you're typically not charged. You wind up forfeiting it with no compensation. Don't cooperate and face prosecution with the property siezed as evidence. See a pattern here? That's right, you don't get to keep it and  you're out the money at the least.


So let's say that it's a 1911 or Savage Enfield that's stamped US property, how's that work, is there a grandfather clause?


I think it would be up to the government to prove that it's their property.  
- A five year old ACOG would probably have a paper trail.  Someone would have reported it as lost/stolen.  
- A 100 year 1911 or Enfield may not have a paper trail.  

Say you called and said that you have an ACOG that was lost in Iraq.  The feds would go to a judge and say "he's admitted to having this ACOG #1234 that was reported as stolen in Iraq on 11/23/10."  The judge would sign a warrant for them to come and seize their property from you.

Just because it's marked "US property" doesn't mean it belongs to the feds.  I don't know how many old jeeps I've seen marked "US Army" for decorative purposes.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:24:23 PM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Paging Agent Wu !
.http://imageshack.us/a/img338/1011/agentwu.jpg
 


That's great.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:26:04 PM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Hypothetically these things float around with some military personal that return home.  

No. Hypothetically these things float around when shit bags fucking steal them. You don't "return home" with body armor and an ACOG in your pocket.

 


I vote for this.
Link Posted: 7/3/2012 5:49:10 PM EDT
They will come and take it away from you.

No compensation, no charges if you purchased it believing it to be a legitimate purchase. They'll follow up with the person you bought it from.
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